Turn Undead, Part 1: The Problem
Posted 23rd July 2008 at 10:12 PM by Wulf Ratbane
Here's a look at some undead from the SRD.
The HD/CR column shows the effective turning HD, which includes any turn resistance, divided by the CR.
This ranks the table from easiest to turn, to most difficult to turn, at any given level where the creature is presented as a moderate encounter.
* holds for Lich and Ghost as well (same HD/CR/turn resistance formula).
The HD/CR column shows the effective turning HD, which includes any turn resistance, divided by the CR.
This ranks the table from easiest to turn, to most difficult to turn, at any given level where the creature is presented as a moderate encounter.
Code:
Creature HD/CR 12 HD Devourer 1.09 9 HD Bodak 1.13 12 HD Vampire* 1.14 8 HD Vampire* 1.20 17 HD Nightwing 1.21 7 HD Spectre 1.29 21 HD Nightwalker 1.31 4 HD Wight 1.33 4 HD Vampire* 1.33 9 HD Greater Shadow 1.38 25 HD Nightcrawler 1.39 5 HD Wraith 1.40 16 HD Dread Wraith 1.45 4 HD Vampire Spawn 1.50 8 HD Mummy 1.60 3 HD Shadow 1.67 14 HD Mohrg 1.75 4 HD Ghast 2.00 4 HD Allip 2.00 5 HD Owlbear Skeleton 2.50 1 HD Human Skeleton 3.00 6 HD Bugbear Zombie 3.00 2 HD Human Zombie 4.00 2 HD Ghoul 4.00
* holds for Lich and Ghost as well (same HD/CR/turn resistance formula).
Total Comments 23
Comments
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I see that table. Turn Undead is a "cool tool" in the beginning and quickly becomes the hammer with which you whack every Undead that shows its face.Posted 24th July 2008 at 12:42 AM by Angellis_ater
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Not at all-- not exactly.
It starts out very effective against lots of non-intelligent undead, then quickly loses its effectiveness against mobs of such creatures, and turns instead into a tool more useful for turning one signature intelligent undead.
In other words, you'll probably have more success turning the vampire or lich before his zombie minions.Posted 24th July 2008 at 03:45 AM by Wulf Ratbane - Ouch! It is sad when unintelligent undead are harder to turn that intelligent undead. I guess brains don't count for much when the cleric comes a calling does it?
You're never one to bring up a problem without a solution Wulf so what's your proposal?Posted 24th July 2008 at 02:01 PM by The Black Kestrel -
I'd assume "Part I" means we can expect moreQuote:You're never one to bring up a problem without a solution Wulf so what's your proposal?
Posted 24th July 2008 at 02:07 PM by Mustrum_Ridcully - Well, I think it depends. I am kinda torn on the matter.
You could make a good "fluff" argument that only intelligent undead are smart enough to "fear" divine power. So by that argument, it's not so bad if zombies and skellies don't have the sense to flee.
You could solve a lot of frustration, actually, by just making the arbitrary ruling that non-intelligent undead can't be affected by turning, at all, and leave the remaining mechanic unchanged (except for a bit of simplification I'll get to later). But basically, you just tell the cleric player: Your turn undead is useful against intelligent undead. So you'll see the cleric player whip out turn undead against the lone bodak, spectre, vampire, etc. and it will probably be as effective as everyone at the table expects it to be.
The gamist side of me would rather see just the opposite: I'd like for turn undead to be more useful against "minions" than against the more intelligent undead. I am still working on a solution that can "double up" against the typically-double HD of the non-intelligent undead, but you have to do it without completely obliterating the intelligent undead.
For now, I'd love some opinions on what I laid out in this comment. I'll move towards a solution when the problem is more clearly defined. My opinion may differ from other folks!Posted 24th July 2008 at 02:38 PM by Wulf Ratbane - Well, I am an Angel & Buffy fan. Powerful Vampires would always find ways to overcome their aversion to religious symbols - even if it would cause the pain. The Master even had a cross in his lair that he sometimes touched...
So, yes, primitive undead should react "primal" and flee easier. Intelligent undead should be able to fight their fear.
I am tempted to just replace HD with CR + Turn Resistance, but that seems against 3E design tenets and even if I am leaving 3E behind for 4E greener pastures, I can't bring myself to do this. But maybe you are less scrupulous then me.
I would even more prefer to overhaul the entire system - the Turning Mechanic just stands out as a total seperate sub-system that just doesn't fit into the rest.
Maybe it should be a Will Save (again: Advantage high HD undead) or something like that. Creatures with Turn Resistance might not run, but instead just be unable to approach closer, and can decide to go further for accepting some damage. (1d8 per 5 ft movement, +1 damage per turning/cleric level)Posted 24th July 2008 at 04:51 PM by Mustrum_Ridcully - Well here's what I have so far.
1) Turning Damage is 2d6 Hit Dice of undead + 1d6 HD per 3 cleric levels. (This is more similar in effect to Circle of Death.)
2) All undead in range must make a Will save, DC 10 + 1/2 cleric level + cleric CHA mod. (This takes the place of the Turning Table.)
2a) Non-intelligent undead have a -4 penalty to their save.
2b) Intelligent undead with more HD than the cleric's level receive a +4 bonus to the save.
2c) Turn resistance applies to the save.
3) Non-intelligent undead are affected first, starting with those closest to the cleric.
4) After all non-intelligent undead have been affected, if there are any HD of effect remaining, apply them to intelligent undead (closest first).
5) If you have twice as many cleric levels as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normally turn.Posted 24th July 2008 at 04:58 PM by Wulf Ratbane -
That seems like a lot of conditions and modifiers. The current TU mechanic is unwieldy already and I think you are trading one set of cumbersome mechanics for another.Quote:Well here's what I have so far.
Regardless of the mechanic used, I think the turn resistance ability should be used to represent "intelligent undead". You are basically creating a new undead subtype by doing that.
I'm really starting to hate Turn Undead. It's the one mechanic that has the most variations without anyone being able to come to a common consensus.Posted 24th July 2008 at 06:35 PM by GlassJaw - Rather than measure the ratio of CR to effective HD, I think you should measure the difference. Because the turning chart cares only about HD+/-something. So while a ghoul might have effective hit dice = 4*CR, this is really only CR+3 so the ghoul is turnable with difficulty by a cleric of the CR level. Meanwhile, the dread wraith has effective HD = 1.45*CR, this is really CR+5 so the dread wraith is effectively unturnable by a cleric of the CR level.
I don't see the point of adding 1d6/3 levels instead of just +1/level unless you are going to have some kind of maximize turning thing. +1d6/3 levels has more steps and is a bit harder to work with.
Turn resistance should still apply to the HD of the undead, or turning ghouls will be too easy. (Ghouls probably should just have more hit dice, but alas that's a legacy issue.)Posted 24th July 2008 at 07:02 PM by Rolflyn - Turn undead isn't cumbersome because of the number of conditions, it's cumbersome because it requires a table lookup.Quote:Originally Posted by GlassjawThat seems like a lot of conditions and modifiers. The current TU mechanic is unwieldy already and I think you are trading one set of cumbersome mechanics for another.
Uhh, no I'm not. There already is such a thing as non-intelligent undead: They have no INT score. I'm not creating anything.Quote:Regardless of the mechanic used, I think the turn resistance ability should be used to represent "intelligent undead". You are basically creating a new undead subtype by doing that.
But more to your point: it's possible to have non-intelligent undead with turn resistance.
It colors your opinion.Quote:I'm really starting to hate Turn Undead. It's the one mechanic that has the most variations without anyone being able to come to a common consensus.
+1d6 per 3 levels approximates the average of +1 per level (which is what clerics receive now, in the existing mechanic) but it is more swingy, by design. The lows are lower and the highs are higher, but the average is about the same; and the higher level/more dice you roll, the closer to the average your result will hew.Quote:Originally Posted by RolflynI don't see the point of adding 1d6/3 levels instead of just +1/level unless you are going to have some kind of maximize turning thing. +1d6/3 levels has more steps and is a bit harder to work with.
FWIW, I believe there's already an Empower Turning feat though I don't have the text in front of me.Posted 24th July 2008 at 09:45 PM by Wulf Ratbane - Your right that the odd table look-up for Turning was a problem, the question is, aren't you just replacing one problem for another? Isn't there something a little less with special modifiers and HD dependend variables?
Ideally, I would want to be able to look at the monster stat block and read up the value my player has to roll against. And the player should be able to look at his stat block and do the same, without looking for complex details.
Something like CR + Turn Resistance as DC for a d20 + Turning Level would be preferable to several if-then clauses and calculations.Posted 24th July 2008 at 10:25 PM by Mustrum_Ridcully - I would go for simplifying the mechanic even more. Make Turn Undead a DC10+Cha+½ level Will-save, where Turn Resistance adds a bonus to the Will-save. If the Undead fails, he must flee. If he fails by "half" (ie the roll is equal to or less than half the DC) then the Undead takes 1d6 points of damage per cleric level. I also think it should only be usable against 1 Undead at range (30 or 60 ft?), or all undead within 10 ft.Posted 25th July 2008 at 12:05 AM by Angellis_ater
- I think you guys are grossly overestimating the effect of those modifiers in play. Putting the roll into the hands of the DM, he'll know who's getting a +4, -4, or not. It's really as simple as looking at your encounter and noting who's a minion and who's a boss.Quote:Originally Posted by MustrumIsn't there something a little less with special modifiers and HD dependend variables?
I would also like to unhook the results from HD directly, but you have to keep in mind that HD affect other variables down the line-- notably Will saves, Undead's best save, for which they'll get 2 + ½ HD.
But of course HD also affect hit points, so a "direct damage" type of mechanic is still going to underperform against big skellies and zombies (or, if you beef it up, overperform against everything else). Because they are non-intelligent undead, that "drawback," along with their general lack of special abilities, means that they have nowhere else to spend their CR other than Hit Dice.
The -4 save on non-intelligent undead is a quick way of cutting their saves (on average) in half-- a hidden doubling of effectiveness.Posted 25th July 2008 at 06:21 AM by Wulf Ratbane - I know I'm chiming in late in the conversation, but since you asked for suggestions...
How about halving the hit dice of non-intelligent undead when applying the turning effect? While this wouldn't fully eliminate the problem of high HD non-intelligent undead being harder to turn that intelligent undead it reduce it.
Another thought would replace HD with CR as the hit die value for the turn undead check. I haven't done alot of research on this one so it may not actaully be that good an alternative.Posted 25th July 2008 at 06:40 PM by The Black Kestrel - Heh... at the speed with which this blog moves, bud, you're early.Quote:Originally Posted by Black KestrelI know I'm chiming in late in the conversation, but since you asked for suggestions...
I am always eager to hear other folks' suggestions (even if at times I seem to argue my own side too passionately). Please don't let that be off-putting-- I like my arguments to be rigorous.
That is an obvious solution but I don't know if it's universally easy "on the fly."Quote:How about halving the hit dice of non-intelligent undead when applying the turning effect? While this wouldn't fully eliminate the problem of high HD non-intelligent undead being harder to turn that intelligent undead it reduce it.
Frankly I think that may be the best approach but I'm not sure it's "allowed" within the d20 rules structure to use CR in this way. Does that sound odd? The "gear" that is the CR mechanic isn't meant to mesh in that way with the "gears" of d20 resolution.Quote:Another thought would replace HD with CR as the hit die value for the turn undead check.Posted 26th July 2008 at 07:03 PM by Wulf Ratbane - I don't see why it wouldn't work. After all its just a different way of measuring the "effectiveness" of undead and arguably is a better one as the maximum HD a cleric can effect doesn't scale very well with high level undead.Quote:Frankly I think that may be the best approach but I'm not sure it's "allowed" within the d20 rules structure to use CR in this way. Does that sound odd? The "gear" that is the CR mechanic isn't meant to mesh in that way with the "gears" of d20 resolution.Posted 27th July 2008 at 12:18 AM by The Black Kestrel
- Exactly my problem. I really found it troubling to use this obvious, most straight-forward approach, too.Quote:Originally Posted by Wulf RatbaneFrankly I think that may be the best approach but I'm not sure it's "allowed" within the d20 rules structure to use CR in this way. Does that sound odd? The "gear" that is the CR mechanic isn't meant to mesh in that way with the "gears" of d20 resolution.
In some ways, it is an "ideological" thing - we can't bring ourselves to do it because it is against the ideological purity of the system. But shouldn't we really care more about the utility? Instead of running around the problem and trying to "fix" it with workarounds and advanced mechanics, why not go straight to the source and just fix it from there?
I think this kind of ultimate rigidity in choosing gameplay value or usability above the "philosophy" of the game is what created 4E. Of course, this sometimes leads to the trigger-happy "bullet-through-the-head" and "sacred-cow-sacrificing" approach that makes some people dislike it.
But really, it's not like anyone would see anything from 3PP as "core 3E" anyway - so why not chose the simplest approach there is and hope that enough people appreciate it anyway?
Turn Undead: Replace HD with CR when determining what creatures are affected or how many. That will outright fix the effectiveness problems.
The second step is finding a nicer way to express the effects - instead of using a table that looks a little too disjointed from the rest of the game.Posted 27th July 2008 at 02:43 PM by Mustrum_Ridcully - It's so simple, it just might work!Quote:Originally Posted by MRTurn Undead: Replace HD with CR when determining what creatures are affected or how many. That will outright fix the effectiveness problems.
Replacing the table with a Will save is a no brainer.Posted 27th July 2008 at 04:58 PM by Wulf Ratbane -
I'd be interested in seeing a system that allows for multiple effects - for example, a cleric might have the option to use his TU to hold undead at bay, drive them off, do less damage over an AoE, or focus the damage to do more to one single target.Posted 31st July 2008 at 07:49 PM by Kid Charlemagne - Turn Undead is driving me nuts. I feel like I've been reading variants and coming up with variants of my own for years now.
When the mechanics just aren't working or I feel like I'm spinning my wheels, I like to put all "the math" aside and go back to the fluff, sometimes to Wulf's dismay.
Anyway, here are some rambling thoughts on turning and undead in general. This isn't meant to be anything concrete; just throwing some talking points/brainstorms out there for sake of discussion. I'm a firm believer in figuring out what effect you want for you "world" first, then designing balanced and mathematically mechanics around your concept.
Possible turning effects:
Cowers/Flees
Held/paralyzed
Damage
Undead resistances:
Does unintelligence make undead more or less resistant to turning? Should turning be based on physical strength (body mass, HD) or mental strength? When a cleric is attempting to turn undead, is he attempting to overcome the undead's physical or mental strength?
Should a cleric have more than one "type" of turn that he can use depending on the undead encountered?
Do undead need to be "aware" of the source of turning or is it instinctual? Does an undead creature need to be intelligent in order to be "afraid" of a holy symbol? Or is turning similar to an invisible dog fence/collar? The dog doesn't need to know it's there, only that it hurts when he moves to a certain area.
High-HD creatures will be more "resistant" to damage-based turning. Intelligent undead will have higher Will save to resist but most likely less hp's. Turn resistance can be used as DR to offset damage to low-HD, high-CR intelligent undead.Posted 1st August 2008 at 03:58 PM by GlassJaw
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