I haven't got one or the other. I'm, like you, interested in buying one of these games though and I've done a bit of "research".
I'd say that Battlelore is the most complex of the two games... Although adding the Air pack expansion to Memoir probably makes it as complex as Battlelore too...
I'd say to just go with the "setting" that thrills you the most... And that your friends will find the most interesting.
There are 4 games which use the same basic system... The first was Gettysburg or something along those lines, a civil war-themed wargame published by Avalon Hill which I think is now out of print.
Then there's also Command & Colors: Ancients, which is widely regarded as the best of the series, not that the others aren't highly regarded. I actually just got C&C:A as a gift a few weeks ago. The downside with this one is that I spent many, many hours over the course of a few days applying IIRC around 800 stickers to dice and wooden blocks...
Each of the 4 games is a bit different, I believe, though I can't say how much. I've only played BattleLore and C&C:A.
BattleLore adds Lore tokens and personalized decks based on the hero you play (I think the four are Warrior, Cleric, Thief and Wizard, could be wrong).
I've never played Battlecry (the first game of the system) or Battlelore, but I have played Commands and Colors: Ancients and Memoir '44. I've heard Battlelore is like C&C but with a few extra mechanics attached. Going on that, I would tell you that Memoir is a simpler game, with maybe a little less depth, and Battlelore might be a bit better balanced. The main problem I've had with Memoir are the cards. Often I'll lack the card I want to attack where I need it, leaving me to just fiddle with a few guys out on the flanks. In C&C (and I'm assuming Battelore) the cards work better to keep you from having this problem, as you can often attack with a line of adjacent units that crosses sections. It makes the game a bit less frustrating in certain situations. Otherwise, I'd say go with the theme you think is more interesting. Battelore as a larger number of unit types, but I'm sure they're not too overwhelming. Memoir '44 essentially only has three.
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I have memoir. I am not thrilled with it either. Have you played the "overlord" version of memoir. I think it really works better with the larger board and more units. Somehow adding more units makes it less dependent on drawing the "right" card.
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I've played a lot*of Memoir '44. With its expansions, I'd say it's a deeper game than BattleLore is at present. BattleLore begins deeper when just comparing their basic sets, but the BattleLore expansions have mostly been profoundly disappointing whilst Memoir '44 has been getting better and better and better.
The Memoir '44 Campaign Book then takes the game to an entirely new level.
Days of Wonder seriously blundered with the expansions to BattleLore: consider that a M44 expansion contains about 44 terrain tiles, 66 plastic miniatures, 8 scenarios and a few badges and tokens (about $33), whilst the bigger BL expansion (Hundred Years War) contains 0 terrain tiles, 32 plastic figures, a few rules summary cards, and only 5 scenarios (about $30)...
I'm sorry. I enjoy BattleLore quite a bit, but the expansions were absolutely pathetic compared to those of Memoir '44. (The M44 expansions also tended to give you a bunch of special rules to play around with: trains, mines, field bunkers, special units and more!)
I'm really hoping that with FFG now owning BattleLore that the expansions will improve their value markedly.
A recent game I had of Memoir '44 had the Russians trying to bring through a train with their reinforcements on it, whilst I had a plane pinning down their troops in another part of the battle... That was a fun game. The basic M44 system is the simplest of the four systems, but the expansions make it far, far superior to BattleLore as it is at present.
Then there's also Command & Colors: Ancients, which is widely regarded as the best of the series, not that the others aren't highly regarded. I actually just got C&C:A as a gift a few weeks ago. The downside with this one is that I spent many, many hours over the course of a few days applying IIRC around 800 stickers to dice and wooden blocks...
Took me a while to do that too... (about three hours it seems!)
I haven't played much C&C:A, though I think it's a very good game. The primary difference between it and BattleLore/Memoir '44 is the presence of leaders.
Leaders allow you to activate them and a "line" of units adjacent to them. This feature isn't there in BattleLore or M44, so it can be a lot more forgiving (if you have control over the battlefield) of drawing "bad" cards. You can still draw cards that don't allow you to activate leaders, though.
You can say that C&C:A is about leaders and keeping your units in lines.
Memoir '44 is all about the terrain. Units need to get into good places where they can take advantage of its defensive features. There are no lines - units don't need to be next to each other.
BattleLore is about keeping units in formations whilst avoiding the terrain. BL terrain tends to hurt units slightly more than it helps them. Well, not entirely, but heavy units don't like terrain much!
Meanwhile, BattleLore has resource management in the form of Lore. I'm not 100% convinced by Lore. There are some cards that may have too great an effect. I'm very, very fond of the "Medieval Lore" rules in the 100 Years War and Scottish Wars expansions, which restrict the Lore rules to more of a grace note than a key part of the game.
Took me a while to do that too... (about three hours it seems!)
I haven't played much C&C:A, though I think it's a very good game. The primary difference between it and BattleLore/Memoir '44 is the presence of leaders.
Leaders allow you to activate them and a "line" of units adjacent to them. This feature isn't there in BattleLore or M44, so it can be a lot more forgiving (if you have control over the battlefield) of drawing "bad" cards. You can still draw cards that don't allow you to activate leaders, though.
You can say that C&C:A is about leaders and keeping your units in lines.
Memoir '44 is all about the terrain. Units need to get into good places where they can take advantage of its defensive features. There are no lines - units don't need to be next to each other.
BattleLore is about keeping units in formations whilst avoiding the terrain. BL terrain tends to hurt units slightly more than it helps them. Well, not entirely, but heavy units don't like terrain much!
Meanwhile, BattleLore has resource management in the form of Lore. I'm not 100% convinced by Lore. There are some cards that may have too great an effect. I'm very, very fond of the "Medieval Lore" rules in the 100 Years War and Scottish Wars expansions, which restrict the Lore rules to more of a grace note than a key part of the game.
Cheers!
So you would vote for War or the Ring over Battlelore (especially if I own Memoir '44)
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So you would vote for War or the Ring over Battlelore (especially if I own Memoir '44)
Probably. Really, it depends on what sort of game you're likely to play with your friends.
I want to like BattleLore a lot more than I do. I own all the expansions for it except the Troll one (and I'll probably get that one as well), but I think it's been terribly mishandled by DOW - which is such a surprise, because they got M44 100% right!
War of the Ring is a game that takes about 3 hours on average. It's a moderately heavy wargame. Loads of fun, but you need to have someone to play it with! I haven't played it much recently, instead my 2-player games have been Memoir '44, Combat Commander: Europe (& Pacific), Through the Ages and Advanced Squad Leader!
Days of Wonder seriously blundered with the expansions to BattleLore: consider that a M44 expansion contains about 44 terrain tiles, 66 plastic miniatures, 8 scenarios and a few badges and tokens (about $33), whilst the bigger BL expansion (Hundred Years War) contains 0 terrain tiles, 32 plastic figures, a few rules summary cards, and only 5 scenarios (about $30)...
!
I didn't realize the BattleLore expansions had such sparse content for the price! I like the Memoir '44 expansions a lot, but some of the additions seem kind of goofy to me. Mainly, I think the British rules in the Mediterranean Theatre expansion is kind of weird, and feels added just because they wanted special British rules. I'm not entirely sold on the air rules, either, though I love that set. The Japanese rules are really cool, though. I think my biggest complaint is that I want more scenarios with special rules like prison break outs, heroic leaders and camouflaged units.
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I didn't realize the BattleLore expansions had such sparse content for the price! I like the Memoir '44 expansions a lot, but some of the additions seem kind of goofy to me. Mainly, I think the British rules in the Mediterranean Theatre expansion is kind of weird, and feels added just because they wanted special British rules. I'm not entirely sold on the air rules, either, though I love that set. The Japanese rules are really cool, though. I think my biggest complaint is that I want more scenarios with special rules like prison break outs, heroic leaders and camouflaged units.
Do you have the M44 Campaign Book yet? I don't know about prison breakouts and heroic leaders, but it certainly has the "Brandenburgers" - German units impersonating Russians!
Do you have the M44 Campaign Book yet? I don't know about prison breakouts and heroic leaders, but it certainly has the "Brandenburgers" - German units impersonating Russians!
Cheers!
I've been meaning to get it, but so far none of my local gaming stores have carried it. I guess I'll just order it online sometime. It sounds really cool, though. It's exactly the kind of thing I would have always wanted for the game.
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I've been meaning to get it, but so far none of my local gaming stores have carried it. I guess I'll just order it online sometime. It sounds really cool, though. It's exactly the kind of thing I would have always wanted for the game.
It's a bit pricey, so I bought it for Randy as a birthday present. (Otherwise, we might not have gotten it!) Now I want a copy for myself! It's beautifully elegant. I'm writing up one of the smaller campaigns in a series of articles on BGG. I'll post links to the entire campaign here once I'm finished.
It's a bit pricey, so I bought it for Randy as a birthday present. (Otherwise, we might not have gotten it!) Now I want a copy for myself! It's beautifully elegant. I'm writing up one of the smaller campaigns in a series of articles on BGG. I'll post links to the entire campaign here once I'm finished.
Cheers!
what do I have to own besides the basic rules to use the campaign rules
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From what I understand, you need the terrain pack, Eastern Front Expansion and, for one campaign, the Air power expansion. If I remember right, there are three big campaigns, one of which requires only the base game, and the other two requiring the expansions. I'm pretty sure that's all you need.
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His summary: Battle of Normandy Grand Campaign (17 scenarios) - playable with only the base set, ideally uses the air pack.
Unternehman Fall Gelb Grand Campaign (21 scenarios) - playable with only the base set and the terrain pack, ideally also use the air pack.
Operation Barbarossa Grand Campaign (23 scenarios) - needs the base set, terrain pack, eastern front and the air pack, ideally also the Winter board (for 3 scenarios). Could probably muddle through without the air pack.
The correct answer is Commands & Colors: Ancients. That is the best game of the line.
Unlike BattleLore and very unlike Mem '44, C&C: A actually makes a provision for using your units somewhat historically. For one thing, different troops are better against certain other enemy troops (elephants beat cavalry and most foot but are vulnerable to light foot, etc.). For another, the use of battle lines and interpenetration of skirmishers is actually represented.
I guess I would say that C&C: A is the only one that actually rises to the level of a "wargame". The other two are fun and have nice toys but they aren't particularly serious.
Another nice thing in C&C: A is that, unless routed, units *always* get to "battle back"... so even if you got a lousy card draw, your troops will at least stand and defend themselves.
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The basic M44 system is the simplest of the four systems, but the expansions make it far, far superior to BattleLore as it is at present.
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