How a RPG Changed the Star Wars' Universe
  • How a RPG Changed the Star Wars Universe


    The unstoppable franchise that is Star Wars is back in the headlines thanks to the blockbuster success of Rogue One, a film that delves into the sci-fi epic's detailed backstory. It's easy to forget that when Disney acquired the Star Wars license and redefined what was canon, the company declared that the tabletop role-playing game was an integral part of defining the universe.


    The Legacy of the Star Wars RPG

    When Disney took over the Star Wars license from George Lucas, fans were curious as to what would be considered canon. Right out of the gate, Disney made it clear that the role-playing game was part of the official universe:

    In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers and also preserve an element of surprise and discovery for the audience, Star Wars Episodes VII-IX will not tell the same story told in the post-Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe. While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.

    How did a tabletop role-playing game come to define one of the most beloved franchises in sci-fi history? To understand that, we have to understand the state of Star Wars in the 1980s.

    "Star Wars Was Dead"

    Rob Wieland explains the state of the franchise in the late 80s on Geek & Sundry:

    Star Wars was dead in 1987. It’s hard to imagine a time without a constant release of books, comics, and other media set in that far, far away galaxy. But the last movie was a few years old and kids were getting tired of playing with the same toys. The Marvel Comics series wrapped up. A few tie-in books had been released but the stories set in that universe had been told. So it seemed like a fairly small risk to license Star Wars to a small RPG company based out of Honesdale, PA. West End Games had a hit on their hands with their Ghostbusters RPG and used the same system for the basis of their new Star Wars game. Despite the lull in the fandom, the game was a massive hit, and the company started producing supplements that expanded the universe beyond what was seen in the movies.

    Shannon Appelcline picks up the thread in Designers & Dragons - the 80s:

    West End’s experience with the licensed Ghostbusters has been listed as one reason for their successful bid. However, West End Games had another advantage not enjoyed by most RPG companies: it, Bucci Imports, and a variety of other companies were wholly owned by the Palter family who freely transferred money among them. Bucci had helped West End when times were lean — getting a tax write-off in the process — and now they offered to advance $100,000 to Lucasfilm, which may well have been the highest advance for a roleplaying property to that date.

    Chris Baker explains on Glixel how West End Games picked up the license:

    Greg Costikyan, a co-creator of Paranoia, was one of the people tasked with securing the Star Wars license. “We flew out to California to meet with Lucasfilm,” he says. “We made a bid of $100k. We later learned that TSR had tried to get the license too, but they only bid $70k.” Costikyan says that the people at Lucasfilm didn’t seem to think that the franchise was dead at that point – Lucas’ original vision had called for nine films, after all. But they were fully aware that Star Wars was essentially in hibernation, as if frozen in carbonite. “They felt it was clearly going to be a long time before there was another Star Wars movie,” says Costikyan. “Lucasfilm thought that an RPG could help keep Star Wars active in the minds of geeks, which was why the licensing deal had some value to them.”

    Costikyan left West End Games in 1987 before the game was ready for release, which is when Bill Slavicsek entered the picture. Slavicsek created the Star Wars Sourcebook, which would flesh out everything from how Star Wars' technology worked to the various creatures and aliens populating the galaxy. It didn't hurt that Slavicsek was a huge fan, having watched the movies nearly 40 times:

    “It so enthralled me that I wanted to go again and again and watch the reaction of my friends and family members to it,” he says. “It was unlike anything I’d seen before. It wasn’t a clean, sterile sci-fi universe – it was lived-in and visceral.” Slavicsek says that, to his mind, there are fundamental similarities between the universe that George Lucas created and the ones that RPG designers create. “Star Wars and D&D aren’t just telling stories – they’re opening up the imagination,” he says...But there were huge holes in the canon that Slavicsek and his co-writer Curtis Smith would have to fill in themselves. Movies simply don’t require the level of exhaustive detail that a game would. The West End designers had to create all that, getting signoff from Lucasfilm on major additions. “We didn’t want to add anything that didn’t fit the milieu, like any tech that seemed too Star Trek,” says Slavicsek.

    Fortunately, Lucasfilm didn't have strong opinions about the universe at the time -- a level of freedom unthinkable today with a popular franchise:

    “Lucasfilm was fairly hands off,” says Costikyan. “They would have the occasional directive, like, 'you can’t show a stormtrooper with their helmets off,’ I guess because they thought that a property based on the Clone Wars was going to come out eventually. They didn’t want us to kill off the main characters, but we didn’t want to kill them off anyway. We thought players would want to create their own characters in this world.” Slavicsek was like Adam in the Garden of Eden, giving names to all of the creatures in God’s creation.

    It was the role-playing game that came up with names for ithorians (originally known as "Hammerheads") and twi'leks. Slavicsek didn't know it then, but he was creating a setting bible for all of Star Wars.

    The Word of God

    Creating a role-playing game requires enough tools so that the game master can adapt on the fly, which means systemizing the universe in a way similar to setting bibles for television and movies. The Game Narrative Toolbox explains the importance of these bibles:

    The Game Bible (also referred to as a Universe Bible or Story Bible) is one of the most important documents a development team uses. As a narrative designer, you'll be responsible for overseeing a game bible's production, or you may write it yourself. The bible serves as a reference for the entire team, including level designers, systems designers, artists, sound designers, and game writers. It documents all of a game's worldbuilding and lore, and may include information covering character development, storylines, and missions/quests.

    Of particular import is the possibility of transmedia spinoffs, which was not as common in the 80s as it is today. The importance of a game bible would be a turning point for Star Wars when Timothy Zahn wrote Heir to the Empire, which picked up where Return of the Jedi left off:

    Zahn was actually given the RPG sourcebook material to use as reference when he wrote his novel. “The way I heard it, Zahn was insulted by this at first,” says Slavicsek. “But then he figured that it was better to use our material as a resource rather than have to create a bunch off stuff from scratch.”

    Zahn later said in an interview, as quoted in Designers & Dragons - the 80s:

    “The Star Wars movies themselves are always my basic source of ‘real’ knowledge. Supplementing that is a tremendous body of background material put together by West End Games over the years for their Star Wars role playing game. The WEG source books saved me from having to reinvent the wheel many times in writing Heir [to the Empire].”

    Things progressed from there:

    Lucasfilm was emboldened by Zahn’s success. The computer game wing, LucasArts, was gaining a reputation for making quality games in the early 90’s and finally turned its attention to Star Wars with the classics X-Wing and TIE Fighter. Several of the ships in this game series, like the Assault Shuttle, first appeared in the pages of the Star Wars RPG. A close scan of the credits for TIE Fighter even shows a thank you to West End for supplying materials. West End took a page from LucasArts and offered an opportunity to play Imperial characters in its Heroes and Rogues supplement.

    The impact of West End Games' work reverberates even in other role-playing games:

    The influence of the RPG was felt even after the game moved from West End to Wizards of the Coast. One of the most popular Star Wars comics during this time was Knights of the Old Republic. Wizards of the Coast got the author of the comic, John Jackson Miller, to work on the sourcebook for the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG. Saga Edition detailed many of the different eras of the Star Wars Expanded Universe since the first series of Zahn novels, even offering a starship sourcebook that authors used to describe the interiors of favorite ships like the Imperial shuttle.

    Going Rogue

    Which brings us back to the fateful decision when Disney decided what was canon in the new universe. It turns out the Story Group that oversees Star Wars canon includes Pablo Hidalgo, who wrote several sourcebooks for West End Games before joining Lucasfilm. The influence of the tabletop role-playing game continues even today, and it echoes in the plot of Rogue One. As Matt Burnett, writer for Cartoon Network's Steven Universe, put it on Twitter:

    Rogue One looks like a West End Games Star Wars RPG session brought to life. I am reborn.

    Gamers everywhere can take comfort in knowing that the Star Wars we know today is a descendant of the efforts of tabletop game designers.

    Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
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    Comments 92 Comments
    1. Lord Twig's Avatar
      Lord Twig -
      Quote Originally Posted by Grainger View Post
      Star Wars was always a fairy tale, good versus evil, where good triumphs. The ending of Jedi is euphoric: "We won". Not "we won this battle, but we'll be fighting them forever in a war of attrition". While the latter interpretation may be more "realistic" (and much more fashionable in recent years), it is deaf to the tone of the OT's ending. Star Wars was done. The story was wrapped up. The Rebels won. At the time, Lucas was tired of it, and wanted done with the whole series. He (hastily) wrapped it up with the happy ending it was always going to get, just earlier than he had been planning.

      While it's possible to argue that the Rebels didn't actually win outright (and if that's your preferred interpretation, there's nothing wrong with that), it's absurd to argue that this was the intention or common interpretation at the time Jedi was made. It was a big, broad mass-market movie with a simple, "all-lived happily-ever-after" ending, a fitting conclusion to a series that was a feel-good reaction against the more cynical movies of the 1970s.

      It's a matter of taste as to whether it's an improvement to darken the tone of the OT by adding a record scratch sound and an "actually, we haven't actually won, because the Empire is still overwhelmingly powerful" postscript to Jedi. Personally, I don't feel that way.
      Okay. This makes sense to me. Yes, I can totally see where this changes the "and-they-all-lived happily-ever-after" ending. Fair enough.

      I still don't think this ruins the OT, but I think at that point we are entering opinion territory.
    1. pemerton's Avatar
      pemerton -
      Quote Originally Posted by Celebrim View Post
      His movies are always incoherent and suffer badly from fridge logic. You do not dare think about a JJ Abrams movie, because if you do, you'll start going nuts. And the problem with having JJ Abrams directing beloved series is that Star Wars and Star Trek fans are entirely about being super obsessive about every little detail of the story and trying to make it real. That's what we do, and that doing that is rewarding was a very part of why these movies became so culturally important.
      It's not what all Star Wars fans do. I consider myself a fan of Star Wars - but not because I super-obssess over every little detail (which tend not to hold up for even a moment - the Imperial "assault" on Hoth, and the Rebels' escape, is just one example).

      For some fans, it's fun because it's pulpy action with a veneer of mysticism and moral wisdom. Not more than that.

      Quote Originally Posted by Celebrim View Post
      TFA was an act of literary and cultural vandalism, like taking spray paint to the Mona Lisa, or a hammer to the Pieta of Michelangelo, blowing up the giant Buddha's of Afghanistan.
      These comparisons are ridiculous.

      First, a sequel doesn't change the originals - they're still there to be enjoyed. (The literary world is full of second-rate sequels or copies or "echoes". And of failed first goes followed up by better second attempts. The bad works don't hurt the good.)

      Second, of the three important works you mention the only one I've personally seen is the Pieta. On two occasions, once sufficiently early in the morning that I was just about the only person there. As a piece of art it is absolutely remarkable. It is dramatically and remarkably modern, in my view, when compared to contemperaneous statuary. I think for anyone it would be an arresting work. And for someone who is familiar with the story of the Crucifixion - a very central story to much of Europes cultural output over the past 1600-odd years - it is even moreso. The arresting modernism and the treatment of the Crucifixion also, for me at least, come together in the way it seems to capture - in statue form - the much more modern ideas of Catholic existentialism.

      Comparing a sequel to any film - especially a pulp film like Star Wars - to the destruction of one of the greatest works of visual art ever created, is just ludicrous.
    1. Morrus's Avatar
      Morrus -
      How did this entire thread become 60 posts about how Celebrim hates The Force Awakens?
    1. Celebrim's Avatar
      Celebrim -
      Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
      How did this entire thread become 60 posts about how Celebrim hates The Force Awakens?
      I think it's pretty obvious, but since I don't want to be (even more) provocative, I'll answer in an oblique manner.

      A few months back on my Facebook feed I made what I thought was going to be a funny post about how I had exposed my young daughter to her first episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, and within 5 minutes of the episode start she turned to me and said, "This captain isn't even a tenth of the captain Kirk is." (True story.)

      Instead of laughing along with it, it provoked more than 100 responses among my nerd friends as to which was the better Captain, Kirk or Picard, and what had been the best Science Fiction show on TV over the last 30 years. (Also a true story.)
    1. Water Bob's Avatar
      Water Bob -
      Quote Originally Posted by Celebrim View Post
      I think it's pretty obvious, but since I don't want to be (even more) provocative, I'll answer in an oblique manner.

      A few months back on my Facebook feed I made what I thought was going to be a funny post about how I had exposed my young daughter to her first episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, and within 5 minutes of the episode start she turned to me and said, "This captain isn't even a tenth of the captain Kirk is." (True story.)

      Instead of laughing along with it, it provoked more than 100 responses among my nerd friends as to which was the better Captain, Kirk or Picard, and what had been the best Science Fiction show on TV over the last 30 years. (Also a true story.)
      I like Picard, but your daughter is correct. Kirk is the man!
    1. Celebrim's Avatar
      Celebrim -
      Quote Originally Posted by Water Bob View Post
      I like Picard, but your daughter is correct. Kirk is the man!
      Of course she is, and I was proud she came to that conclusion without prompting, but my point is that I had expected a discussion along the lines of "How sweet. Don't kids say the darndest things" and I got a passionate discussion of, "Who's better, Kirk or Picard?"
    1. MoonSong's Avatar
      MoonSong -
      Quote Originally Posted by Lord Rasputin View Post
      I think devotion to the first two movies is the only constant among Star Wars fans.
      I guess I don't count as a Star Wars fan then, because I find the original the most boring and formulaic of the bunch. It is basically the one I have watched the less times. Only Battle for Endor ranks lower for me. Now Empire, we are talking on the same channel.
    1. Celebrim's Avatar
      Celebrim -
      Quote Originally Posted by Lord Twig View Post
      So please enlighten me. You have said that TFA craps all over the original trilogy. How is that so? So how was everything the heroes achieved undone?
      Let's start with your assertion that TFA and the Zahn trilogy begin with the same premise. Now, like you, I wasn't impressed by the Zahn trilogy, but the idea that TFA and the Zahn trilogy begin with the same premise is false. It doesn't take a very deep dive to discover that, it's obvious from the very first scene of both narratives.

      Like each of the three original three films, the Zahn trilogy begins with a shot of a Star Destroyer. But in this case, it's a Rebel/New Republic star destroyer launching X-Wings. At the beginning of the Zahn trilogy, the rebellion has built on the success at Endor to become the overwhelmingly dominate military force in the Galaxy. For five years they've gone from victory to victory. The hold out Imperial troops are on the run, disorganized, demoralized, and awaiting defeat. The former rebels have by far the most powerful fleet in the Galaxy. Everyone is convinced that they are about to bring the war to a successful close, and people who have supported the rebellion are legitimately excited about the future. They are filled with hope and confidence, and brimming with expectation of a bright tomorrow.

      In TFA, the New Republic is a moribund organization, lacking in military power, almost wholly disarmed, that has in despair given up the fight unfinished. The Imperial have reconstituted under the banner of a religious fanatic, and have successfully built a third and vastly more powerful planet destroying super-weapon. People have become jaded. They are tired. They are depressed. There heroes have failed them. The war has dragged on now for the better part of 80 years and it is no closer to an end in sight than it was before. With no military to speak of, the only group willing to go on fighting is a small rag tag band of rebels that have been secretly and illegally funded and are lead by 'General Leia'. Launching attacks in X-Wing fighters from their hidden base, they are the only hope the galaxy has versus the Empire and it's new Death Star... I mean the First Order and its new whatever they called it.

      That is not the same premise. That's practically the opposite premise. Indeed, Zahn is the figure that gives the bad guys a new hope. In TFA, the Rebels are still looking for a new hope.

      Fortunately they find it in a force sensitive orphan who has grown up on a remote desert planet. But where will this new hope go to receive training? Rumor has it there is an ancient Jedi warrior that has survived from the time of the last war and who has gone into hiding. Armed with Darth Vader's old lightsaber, Luke... I mean Rey, goes on a quest to save the Alliance from a Dark Sinister Sith Lord and a devastating planet superweapon. Along the way she runs into a Wookie and an old cynical smuggler named Han Solo, and together they journey to find Princess Leia. Can this rag time team bring Hope to a suffering galaxy?

      How was the character growth Fleeting? It seems like the characters have still grown a lot.
      Aside from not only recycling the plots of the former movie, and returning things to square one, they returned characters like Han back to where he starts at the beginning of 'A New Hope'.

      Like we've still got basically two Jedi - Rey and Luke. And we've still got basically two Sith - whats-his-name the emo Darth Vader wanna be and that shadowy hologram guy that gives him orders. And golly, everyone who is anyone is still related to everyone else in the movie.

      But Han is back to where he was in a New Hope. He's become _again_ a cynical jaded scoundrel and criminal who apparently cares for no one other than himself, whose flying around trying to make a few thousand credits to pay back debts he can't pay off. Now what's so disheartening about that is that over the course of three movies we've watch Han consistently grow in moral integrity from movie to movie, until he has become a self-sacrificing, caring, person who thinks more about the happiness of other people than he does himself and who believes in the power of the force. He had become a legitimate hero. And now he's right back to square one. Worse, he's a far less sympathetic person than he was before precisely because he ought to know better, and because before he had no better options. Now when we find him, he's abandoned everyone. He's abandoned his wife. He's abandoned his best friend. And he's abandoned his child. When the going got tough, he just ran away. Han Solo is turned not just into a cynical scoundrel, but in to a moral cretin.

      Luke Skywalker, when the Galaxy needed him most? Ran away. Went into hiding. The fight got too much for him. The Galaxies greatest warrior needed a time out. He had to go run to his safe place. At least Obi Wan stayed around to watch over his charge. Luke can't even bother to do that.

      Fortunately though, Luke Skywalker was never the Galaxies only hope. We've always known that there was another Skywalker. And she had as great of potential and power as her brother. He prophesied, "You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have." So, no problem. If one galactic hero fails, there is Leia to take up that burden and that mantle. Leia, the most caring, the most valiant, the courageous character in the whole trilogy. She's not going to fail the galaxy. She's never going to give up on life or on her dream for a just and peaceful galaxy. She'd never give up on anything. Golly, when she was suffering from having her whole planet blow up, not only was she still fighting to the last, but she took time to comfort a farm boy she barely knew who'd lost his mentor. All you got to do is find Leia right, because if Luke can't be the galaxy's greatest warrior - then she will be. It's her destiny. What's this? You say that Leia has become a bitter old cynical hard-bitten woman, who has failed at marriage, failed in politics, failed in life, and hasn't even managed to become a Jedi? Where is her lightsaber? Where is her power? Is it because she's a girl that she can't be the galaxies greatest warrior? You've got that Mary Sue Rey, so why do you have to spit on Leia like that?

      It's because they need to reboot everything back to square one.

      How did they undo their very philosophies? How are they wrong? How were their victories actually defeats?
      I'm tired of talking about this. I had tossed these things out of my head because I don't like thinking about things that make me angry. But the whole original was about the power of faith, love, and hope. And TFA is about faithless people in dark galaxy, being told that it's not about winning it's about struggling eternally, finding out that love does not conquer after all and does not really mean anything. We find the heroes have forsaken each other and all of their honor. And it craps on the whole original trilogy and on beloved character's worse even than books like 'Ender's Shadow' messes up classics like 'Ender's Game'. And with a lot less good of an excuse.

      You say these things (and lots more) but never explain why or how they are true.
      This is going to sound really harsh, but since you ask, and since you insisted on challenging me on this the way you did, it's because I didn't expect to have to explain what is so self-evident.
    1. aramis erak's Avatar
      aramis erak -
      Quote Originally Posted by Lord Twig View Post
      But as far as Star Wars crimes go, it is not as bad as having a fourteen-year-old girl elected Queen, midichlorian and Jar Jar Binks.
      The poles elected their kings during the Kingdom of Poland era.

      Midichlorians and JarJar, yeah. I like gungans, just not JarJar.
    1. Water Bob's Avatar
      Water Bob -
      Quote Originally Posted by Lord Twig View Post
      But as far as Star Wars crimes go, it is not as bad as having a fourteen-year-old girl elected Queen, midichlorian and Jar Jar Binks.
      Leia was 19 years old and a Senator from Alderaan (plus, a princess).
    1. Lord Twig's Avatar
      Lord Twig -
      Quote Originally Posted by Water Bob View Post
      Leia was 19 years old and a Senator from Alderaan (plus, a princess).
      Was she elected princess?
    1. Lord Twig's Avatar
      Lord Twig -
      Quote Originally Posted by Celebrim View Post
      This is going to sound really harsh, but since you ask, and since you insisted on challenging me on this the way you did, it's because I didn't expect to have to explain what is so self-evident.
      It seems self-evident to you, but as there are many who disagree with your appraisal of the movie it obviously is not.

      I'm not going to argue point for point. I just wanted to again reiterate that just because you didn't like the movie that doesn't mean that the people who made it intentionally tried to destroy the previous movies and hate Star Wars.
    1. Celebrim's Avatar
      Celebrim -
      Quote Originally Posted by Lord Twig View Post
      It seems self-evident to you, but as there are many who disagree with your appraisal of the movie it obviously is not.

      I'm not going to argue point for point. I just wanted to again reiterate that just because you didn't like the movie that doesn't mean that the people who made it intentionally tried to destroy the previous movies and hate Star Wars.
      *sigh*

      And just because you like the movie doesn't mean that the people who made it didn't intentionally set out to make a reboot that reset the story to square one.

      Likewise, just because you like the movie doesn't mean that the people made the movie didn't intentionally set out to change the stories meaning and themes because they felt - for whatever reason - their take was more mature, or more intellectual, or more nuanced, or more realistic or whatever. It's not like that's an unusual action in a Hollywood screen writer. For example, Peter Jackson openly admitted to as much when making The Lord of the Rings.

      You can choose to avoid arguing with me, but your still wrong. And my conclusions are based on stronger evidence than yours. It's not even like the idea that it was a retreaded plot that rebooted the series back to square one is a novel observation. Plenty of critics who liked the movie observed as much even a year ago when it came out. Some even liked it for that.
    1. Celebrim's Avatar
      Celebrim -
      Quote Originally Posted by Lord Twig View Post
      Was she elected princess?
      No, as far as we can tell Alderan has a more traditional monarchy. She inherited it by being - as was widely supposed - a daughter of the Royal House of Organa, though it was later discovered she actually had been adopted (the planet having been blown up, rendering her title somewhat superfluous anyway). Her adoptive father Bail was Prince of Alderan by way of marriage to the Queen Breha Oragana, and was the principle emissary and representative of the planet on the galatic stage.

      But an elected child monarchy where the child is replace regularly is suggestive of a stranger, sinister origin, to a planetary government. And frankly, it's such a cool idea, and I pride myself so much on have weird alternative systems of government that make perfect sense in the historical concept, that as soon as I saw it I wish I'd thought of it.

      Having a child queen who is elected to serve for a particular period of time has precedent in human history. The best match I now of is the Incan government, which had as its spiritual figurehead a girl chosen as the best, brightest, and most beautiful in the whole kingdom. She was chosen and treated as royalty, and preceded over all official ceremony for one year.

      Then they drugged her and ritually killed her, and appointed her replacement. It was considered a great honor to be chosen.

      It's not hard to imagine a society where this ritual of renewal was the heart of the culture, and where people truly felt that they weren't lead rightly unless they had a ceremonial Queen. It's not hard to imagine a society where they would feel uncomfortable and that things would not work out right unless they had these special sacred virgin leading them. There are even parallels with for example Joan of Arc.

      At some point apparently in the Naboo culture, they decided that they were civilized enough to forgo the human sacrifice, but too traditional to forgo the sacred Queen. So they kept the office, but did away with actual murder and replaced it with a more ritual death.

      That is awesome. It's weird and alien but not so alien and weird that we can't relate to it.

      Beyond that, while ritually elected royalty rarely is an ongoing thing, actually elected royalty isn't unusual at all. The English have a long tradition of doing away with their monarchs and electing a new one. The first royal line of France - the Merovingians - began when a tribal king got himself elected King of All The Franks. There was even a ceremony for it. After the Dukes agreed to which one of them was to be the new king, they would place the new king on his shield and then lift him up over their heads to symbolize his elevation above them. And as someone else mentioned, for about 200 years in Poland, they did actually elect their Kings individually, rather than establishing dynasties.

      So yeah. Elected monarchs are a real thing, and not at all stupid.
    1. Water Bob's Avatar
      Water Bob -
      Amidala is supposed to be the youngest queen ever elected. Naboo has a governmental schooling program for their leaders. Children are identified extremely early--say five or six years old, and they are groomed for leadership their entire lives. Amidala is one of these children.

      Also, Naboo had a different, more traditional government before The Phantom Menace. IIRC, from what I read, there was a problem with a regent, or a king, and some civil unrest. Then,the world changed to their current democratic method of electing their Queen.

      This is covered in James Luceno's excellent book, Darth Plagueis, which is now a "Legends" work, but shouldn't be.

      The Sith actually helped Amidala get elected--their work behind the scenes, because the previous king was in their way politically. It helped Palpatine become Naboo's Senator to the Galactic Republic.
    1. Jhaelen -
      Quote Originally Posted by Celebrim View Post
      Of course she is, and I was proud she came to that conclusion without prompting, but my point is that I had expected a discussion along the lines of "How sweet. Don't kids say the darndest things" and I got a passionate discussion of, "Who's better, Kirk or Picard?"
      I'm not surprised.
      Imho, the 'correct' answer is that Kirk was the best captain for the original tv show and Pickard was the best captain for Star Trek NG. Both were the right choice at the time the tv shows were conceived and broadcast. A captain like Kirk wouldn't have worked for the kind of stories NG told.

      I've never been a hardcore Star Wars fan, but imho 'The Force Awakens' did everything right. The franchise needed this reboot way more than (just) a continuation of the storyline from episodes 4-6. The movie had everything that made the original movies great and thus served excellently as both a 'refresher' for old fans and a starting point for the new generations.
    1. Celebrim's Avatar
      Celebrim -
      Quote Originally Posted by Jhaelen View Post
      I'm not surprised.
      Imho, the 'correct' answer is that Kirk was the best captain for the original tv show and Pickard was the best captain for Star Trek NG. Both were the right choice at the time the tv shows were conceived and broadcast. A captain like Kirk wouldn't have worked for the kind of stories NG told.

      I've never been a hardcore Star Wars fan, but imho 'The Force Awakens' did everything right. The franchise needed this reboot way more than (just) a continuation of the storyline from episodes 4-6. The movie had everything that made the original movies great and thus served excellently as both a 'refresher' for old fans and a starting point for the new generations.
      I'm giving you XP for disagreeing with me over things that are actually subjective. I don't agree, but since nothing you said that I disagree with is a statement of fact, all I can conclude is different people like different things. And indeed, I'm even a bit sympathetic to your claims, because I at least can see how you might have those emotions and resulting beliefs.
    1. Lord Twig's Avatar
      Lord Twig -
      Quote Originally Posted by Celebrim View Post
      *sigh*

      And just because you like the movie doesn't mean that the people who made it didn't intentionally set out to make a reboot that reset the story to square one.

      Likewise, just because you like the movie doesn't mean that the people made the movie didn't intentionally set out to change the stories meaning and themes because they felt - for whatever reason - their take was more mature, or more intellectual, or more nuanced, or more realistic or whatever. It's not like that's an unusual action in a Hollywood screen writer. For example, Peter Jackson openly admitted to as much when making The Lord of the Rings.
      I'm not the one that made the claim that the writer/producer/director/etc. hated Star Wars and intentionally set out to destroy it. That was you. Nor did I say that they did not do so. I said that it seemed unlikely that they intentionally tried to destroy the OT because they hated Star Wars. Neither of us can really know other peoples motivations, but only one of us made an absolute statement that is not provable.

      Quote Originally Posted by Celebrim View Post
      You can choose to avoid arguing with me, but your still wrong. And my conclusions are based on stronger evidence than yours. It's not even like the idea that it was a retreaded plot that rebooted the series back to square one is a novel observation. Plenty of critics who liked the movie observed as much even a year ago when it came out. Some even liked it for that.
      And I can avoid arguing with you and still be right. Your claim that your evidence is stronger than mine is ridiculous. Of course you think your own evidence is stronger, that doesn't make it true. But you are free to believe whatever you want.
    1. Gradine's Avatar
      Gradine -
      Bubbles, man. We've all crafted our own little bubbles. Pretty much all of my friends who are Star Wars fans (myself included) thought TFA was the best thing to come out of Star Wars in years, if not decades, despite Abrams' inability or refusal to craft anything close to an original story structure. But then, what he does best is homage, and TFA was certainly his best work yet. That the new Trio are all fun characters with excellent actors behind doesn't hurt. On the other hand, our opinions on Rogue One were decidedly mixed; I thought the writing and acting were generally very poor, but the final act was basically everything I've ever wanted to see on screen in a Star Wars movie, so it was ultimately a wash for me. Can't deny I didn't walk out of the theater with a huge grin on my face though.

      And for the record, with very little experience in WEG Star Wars under my belt, that part of the movie was basically a combination of Battlefront 2 and the old X-Wing/TIE Fighter games in the best possible way for me.
    1. Morrus's Avatar
      Morrus -
      Quote Originally Posted by Gradine View Post
      Bubbles, man. We've all crafted our own little bubbles.
      I think the technical term is "echo chambers". People can believe the most astonishing things because it constantly gets reinforced.
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