Heroes In Shades Of Grey

My wife and I recently began watching the HBO series Game of Thrones (based on George R. R. Martin's books) from the start. I had read the books, neither of us had seen any of the series.


Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series (to give it its proper name) is very different from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. In LOTR we know, with few exceptions, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. The only good orc is a dead orc. Sauron is evil personified. Martin's books are much more contemporary, where no one is wholly evil or wholly good, and many are very much in between. It reminds me of typical contemporary science fiction and fantasy rather than of the older, sometimes called "pulp," style. And of course, Martin has no compunction about bumping off major characters left and right, especially in the earlier books.

"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - John Wayne

I started writing this piece when it occurred to me to wonder whether there's any kind of parallel to this in gaming - especially tabletop gaming. I don't know, but I can see some comparisons. For example, your typical Euro style board or card game entirely lacks good guys and bad guys. That may be partly because so many are symmetrical, everyone is essentially the same. Tabletop RPGs are more of a holdout for the good guy/bad guy comparisons, although even 40 years ago most players wanted to act like Chaotic Neutrals, doing whatever they wanted but not responsible for what they did, able to act like thugs but not suffer the consequences of being of actual evil alignment. (You won't be surprised to learn that they never got away with this when I was the GM.) There are many RPGs nowadays that are shades of gray rather than black and white, and evidently many people enjoy this, not I.

Given how much of contemporary life is littered with shades of gray nowadays, where our elected officials are often regarded as crooks, I always liked the notion that one could clearly be a hero, a good guy. I play the game by putting myself in the position of the character, rather than functioning as an actor playing a role.

This gray is part and parcel of the contemporary dislike of constraints. Any game is a set of constraints that players agree to abide by (if they don't, they cheat). You can't have a game without constraints. Yet contemporaries seem to be less tolerant of constraints than people were 40 or 50 years ago, perhaps because there's so many more things we can do in a world with computers and the Internet than we could back when. Games are often more puzzle than game, so there are no constraints imposed by other players. It's very striking to hear someone say they don't want other people messing up the game they're playing.

"Life isn't black and white. It's a million gray areas, don't you find?" - Ridley Scott

It's not surprising, then, that people object to many constraints within the rules of the game. If players don't have to worry about being good, about living up to some kind of standard, if they can successfully be thugs in a world of grays rather than blacks and whites, then they've eliminated some constraints.

There are different kinds of heroes: some who grow up wanting to be heroes, and prepare to be heroes, and have the necessary attitude to be heroes (like Aragorn in Lord of the Rings books, or Wonder Woman in the recent movie), are one kind. People who are forced to do what must be done when there's no one else to do it (like Frodo and Sam in Lord of the Rings) are another kind of hero, the Everyman hero. But both of these heroes require pretty clear-cut situations, black and white rather than gray situations. And we expect the first kind to be sure of their mission, as Aragorn was in the books, but not in the movies, where he was made to be modern-style sensitive and uncertain.

Kriti Sanon said "We are all somewhere or the other a little grey, not black and white. We have our imperfections." But in a game, we can put those imperfections behind us and pretend we are black or white.

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The alignment system in D&D has always tended to - somewhat unfortunately - pigeonhole characters into little boxes; reinforced by the 1e-era penalties for varying from one's alignment. This presents an arbitrary and in many cases unnecessary limitation on how one can play one's character and even what character one can play at all. This article seems to want to reinforce that limitation, where for 35+ years I've wanted to mitigate it in most cases while maybe not removing it outright.

Don't get me wrong, I quite like the alignment system - but I want the character to define its alignment rather than have the alignment define the character. In other words, just play the character in character and a vague idea of its alignment will soon enough become apparent.

I also promote the idea of - I guess you could call it shades of alignment, where for example a true paladinic type might have its alignment as LG a character who is very Good and trends a bit toward Chaotic might show as cG. Someone who is close to true Neutral but shades a bit toward Chaotic Good (i.e. by far the most common alignment seen in my games) would show as Ncg.

And we've never really played with heroism as a goal, not since day 1 back on the very early '80s. Any heroism arising from what our characters do is often just a side effect of our killing monsters and taking their stuff and may not even always be intentional; though sometimes there's a sort-of-heroic story lurking somewhere in behind it all.

Most of the real heroism we see in our games comes when characters risk themselves to save other characters.

Lan-"Paladins, however, still have to play to alignment; which is probably why they stick out like sore thumbs"-efan
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

Don't get me wrong, I quite like the alignment system - but I want the character to define its alignment rather than have the alignment define the character. In other words, just play the character in character and a vague idea of its alignment will soon enough become apparent.

Bingo! We have a winner! :)

Lanefan said:
And we've never really played with heroism as a goal, not since day 1 back on the very early '80s. Any heroism arising from what our characters do is often just a side effect of our killing monsters and taking their stuff and may not even always be intentional; though sometimes there's a sort-of-heroic story lurking somewhere in behind it all.

Most of the real heroism we see in our games comes when characters risk themselves to save other characters.

Lan-"Paladins, however, still have to play to alignment; which is probably why they stick out like sore thumbs"-efan

And again, my thoughts and experience is very similar to your, Lanefan. I have had Players "not get" the Alignment system, insisting that it was "broken" or that it "forced you to...". Usually, after explaining that it doesn't work that way, and that your choices determine your PC's alignment and not the other way around, they usually get it. Usually. I still had one player who's loathing for the Alignment system was so deep that he just couldn't accept that his view wasn't how I read it at any rate. The way I fixed it for him was to tell him "Don't write down an alignment for your guy then. Leave it blank. Let me worry about it". The repressed light bulb kinda flickered a dull yellow (I could tell he was skeptical), but after a few months of weekly AD&D therapy...he "got it".

Heroism? Sure...that pays more, right? ;)

^_^

Paul L. -"Just don't ask me about Chaotic Neutral"- Ming
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I don't think you're looking at constraints properly. There are still plenty of constraints in D&D, but some of the more useless ones have been disregarded over time. People got tired of having to be lawful stupid in order to keep their class abilities, people got tried of having to eat babies to stay a warlock (which required an evil alignment at the time). They got tired of them not because they wanted to play thugs who never took responsibility for their actions, but because these elements did not lend themselves towards good gameplay, or even good role-play. They forced people to make bad decisions when there was no inherent reason for them to do so, other than some gamest mechanic required them to do so in order to keep their alignment.

Arguably, I would say that the "shades of grey" heroes from Martin's books are perhaps, more heroic than the heroes from Tokein's books. But that's because these people are fighting two different kinds of evil. The former fight a more subtle, internal evil. The latter fight an obvious, external evil. If the orcs are always bad guys, are you really a hero for fighting them? But what if they orcs might not be bad guys? What if they're desperate wanderers who have been forced from their home for *reasons* and in that process, have turned into essentially a nomadic army, like locusts. Is it heroic to fight them? Sure it is. But it's also heroic to understand them. It's also heroic to look for better solutions than "beat up the bad guy".

Heroism isn't just about fighting evil. It's about being able to tell what is evil, and what isn't. If the Gm just tells you that the bad guys are evil, there's really no heroism in fighting them. Heck, you could be evil and fight evil! You just happen to not like those evil doers. Does that make you a good guy? Does that make you heroic?

The heroes in Martin's books also fight evil within themselves. The urge to do evil because it is easier, because it is faster, because it is a more permanent solution to the problem. It makes for deep characters who resonate with their audience, who likewise have to fight evil within themselves. To take the easy route, to cheat, to steal.
This doesn't exist in black-and-white games, in these games you are the hero because your alignment says LG. The bad guys are the bad guys because their stat-block says LE/CE/etc... These games can be fun and enjoyable, but they are largely two-dimensional. Characters move along predictable paths, those who are not good, die, those who are good, live. But these games can get boring and repetitious and as people grow and realize there is more to life than black-and-white, they want to experience these higher concepts within the hobbies they enjoy.

What people have discovered is that heroism is less about stomping the bad-guys face (which may not be very heroic), but heroism is about "doing the right thing". This may at times include stomping the bad-guy's face, but that has become a much smaller element of "doing the right thing". Sometimes doing the right thing is letting your enemies live, sometimes it's taking them to jail, sometimes it's outright killing them. Sometimes you must sacrifice your goodness to stop a greater evil. Sometimes heroism is judged a thousand years from now, sometimes it is judged in the moment.

Sure, you can take the Doctor's approach in a grey world:
Doctor Who said:
"Goodness is not goodness that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the deepest pit, without hope, without witness, without reward. Virtue is only virtue in extremis."
But then you're going to have to take the lumps that come with such an approach, and if your character isn't an immortal, half-mad genius half-bleeding heart, you may find this leads your character to a very short lifespan. And indeed, one of The Doctor's defining elements is that doing good literally kills him.
 

Von Ether

Legend
I was always a fan of Pendragon's traits system. If I remember right you had 10 traits that were paired off as opposites. If one rose, the other fell. Reach a certain score with the right traits and you'd get a bonus. And the traits changed according to your actions, not the other way around.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I still had one player who's loathing for the Alignment system was so deep that he just couldn't accept that his view wasn't how I read it at any rate. The way I fixed it for him was to tell him "Don't write down an alignment for your guy then. Leave it blank. Let me worry about it". The repressed light bulb kinda flickered a dull yellow (I could tell he was skeptical), but after a few months of weekly AD&D therapy...he "got it".

Heroism? Sure...that pays more, right? ;)

^_^

Paul L. -"Just don't ask me about Chaotic Neutral"- Ming

Hi, my name is Shidaku, I'm that player.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I was always a fan of Pendragon's traits system. If I remember right you had 10 traits that were paired off as opposites. If one rose, the other fell. Reach a certain score with the right traits and you'd get a bonus. And the traits changed according to your actions, not the other way around.

Pendragon's traits were pretty cool, but a truly famous trait value (I think 16+) actually could force your actions. Extreme traits could take on a life of their own.
 

PMárk

Explorer
Well, I like antiheroes and troubled heroes and reluctant heroes. I like heroic deeds. However, the archetypical white knight in shining armor do-gooder-type hero, I always found that boring and unrelatable.

Suffice to say, i never had an inclination to play a paladin. :p
 

Von Ether

Legend
Well, I like antiheroes and troubled heroes and reluctant heroes. I like heroic deeds. However, the archetypical white knight in shining armor do-gooder-type hero, I always found that boring and unrelatable.

Suffice to say, i never had an inclination to play a paladin. :p

Again, Pendragon had you playing only knights and it was rather unboring. But then again, if you judge a character on only two axis, you get rather two-dimensional.
 

Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
I have to say, I love the alignment system, and I actually don't like how it's been downplayed in 5e. In D&D, good and evil aren't abstract concepts; they are physical essences, and moving with or against them has consequences.

What I DO like in 5e's approach is it's descriptions of the alignments. Short, punchy, and relatable.

I also enjoy playing Lawful Good characters. There is no role-playing challenge in being a self-centered jerk who does as they please.

YMMV, obvs.
 

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