Paizo's Stephen Radney-MacFarland Previews The Rogue Class For Pathfinder 2nd Edition!
  • Paizo's Stephen Radney-MacFarland Previews The Rogue Class For Pathfinder 2nd Edition!


    We saw the fighter last week; today it's the turn of the rogue! Paizo's Stephen Radney-MacFarland gives the inside scoop on rogue features, and feats.



    Rogue by Wayne Reynolds



    What do we know from this latest blog entry? Here's some class features:

    • Sneak Attack (1st level) -- Rogues get Sneak Attack as their first class feature. Extra d6s of damage vs. flat-footed foes (such as flanked enemies, or those who fall victim to the Surprise Attack feature).
    • Surprise Attack (1st level) -- "during the first round of combat, the rogue treats any creature that has not taken its turn yet as if it were flat-footed."
    • Debilitating Strike (9th level) -- entangle or enfeeble targets in addition to damage. Higher levels add more conditions.
    • Master Strike (19th level) -- ... culminating in Master Strike, which is an insta-kill at 19th level.
    • More skill ranks, proficiencies, and skill feats than any other class. One skill feat per level rather than every other level.

    And here's some class feats a rogue can take:

    • Nimble Dodge -- +2 AC at a whim.
    • Mobility (2nd level) -- move half speed and ignore reactions like attacks of opportunity.
    • Reactive Pursuit (4th level) -- a sticky ability which allows the rogue to chase after foes who try to disengage.
    • Dead Striker (4th level) -- treat frightened creatures as flat-footed.
    • Gang Up (6th level) -- treat enemies within melee range of of your an ally as flat-footed.
    • Twist the Knife (6th level) -- if you do sneak attack damage, do ongoing bleeding damage equal to half your sneak attack dice.
    • Instant Opening (14th level) -- make a creature within 30' flat-footed until the end of your next turn.
    • Cognitive Loophole -- ignore a mental effect for a round before it takes hold.
    • Blank Slate (16th level) -- immune to detection, revelation, and scrying effects.

    SaveSave
    Comments 62 Comments
    1. turkeygiant's Avatar
      turkeygiant -
      I'm really liking all of the new actions and reactions they have previewed in general. They all feel much more interesting and actively useful compared to a lot of the 1e feats which were often all about crunchy system efficiencies. These 2e feats and features feel like new tricks your character can actually do, not just a new formula plugged into the abstract set of calculations that make up your character. What I still really want to see is the overall progression of what you are able to pick and at what levels, my only concern is that some of these feats/features might lock behind a higher level something that should conceptually be available much earlier.
    1. MichaelSomething's Avatar
      MichaelSomething -
      Doesn't feel too different from PF1 to be honest; you basically get a thing every level.

      Hopefully, those things will prove more useful in play then they look.
    1. vpuigdoller's Avatar
      vpuigdoller -
      It sounds cool but will need to see it in action.
    1. Adso -
      Quote Originally Posted by vpuigdoller View Post
      It sounds cool but will need to see it in action.
      Absolutely! That's why we will be playtesting it.
    1. doctorhook's Avatar
      doctorhook -
      Point of order: I think abbreviating the PF editions as "PF1" and "PF2" is the best way to reference them. Turkeygiant called then 1e and 2e above, and that was confusing.
    1. Adso -
      Quote Originally Posted by doctorhook View Post
      Point of order: I think abbreviating the PF editions as "PF1" and "PF2" is the best way to reference them. Turkeygiant called then 1e and 2e above, and that was confusing.
      It's even more complicated than that. It's P1 and P2 Playtest on the road to an eventual full P2 in 2019. Remember, kids, this is a playtest version of the rules.
    1. NaturalZero's Avatar
      NaturalZero -
      I'm torn.

      On one hand, i like how 5e made feats more meaningful, so that each one has a collection of stuff that's bound to have something useful. On the other hand, i also like how 4e gave feats out like candy, with each one being an integral lego that helped you construct combos (the forced movement feat + the knock down people you force move + the feat that lets you use at-will for OAs, et al). PF 2 is obviously closer to 4e, but it seems like it might have those 3e "you can attack 3 opponents as an action if you had eggs for breakfast on the third Tuesday of a month with a blue moon" kind of feats that are either straight up traps or only useful in niche builds. So, does the rogue get the ability to frighten foes to get Dead Striker to proc or is this a Timmy Option? Is the game going to have 34,423,432 damage boosting feats that compete with the Cognitive Loophole feat that only lets me ignore a mental effect for a round? It's obviously impossible to know at this point.

      The one thing i really want to see gone are the nonsense feat chains. This is what I called the "Garbage to Gold" design paradigm that 3e and PF enshrined, where you would take stuff like Dodge, Improved Basket Weaving, Cursive Writing, and Pleasant Body Odor in order to qualify for the Do All the Damage feat if your game lasted until you were 9th level.
    1. Ancalagon's Avatar
      Ancalagon -
      A quick, off-topic aside: dodge as a feat would be better in 5e than 3.x/PF...

      But yes, I too loathe this feat chain thing.
    1. Adso -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
      A quick, off-topic aside: dodge as a feat would be better in 5e than 3.x/PF...

      But yes, I too loathe this feat chain thing.
      Who said anything about chains? I know I didn't.
    1. mach1.9pants's Avatar
      mach1.9pants -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
      A quick, off-topic aside: dodge as a feat would be better in 5e than 3.x/PF...

      But yes, I too loathe this feat chain thing.
      It has specifically pointed out by the devs that there are no feat chains of the Dodge> Mobility> Spring Attack type. There are the improving ones, like Vital Strike> Improved Vital Strike> Greater Vital Strike, which just make a feat's mechanical effects better.
    1. pming's Avatar
      pming -
      Wow. I guess they're probably going to rename it from "Rogue" to what it is: "Action-Hero" or maybe "Ninja-Jedi-Batman-Genius".

      All we see is combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat and combat; oh and a totally transparent attempt to hide "and extra COMBAT stuff you can add yourself" under the guise of "and extra skills and feats".

      I wasn't a big fan of PF1. Definitely avoiding PF2. No point if this is the direction they are taking things. I mean, they HAVE to 'balance' the other classes to this monstrosity of a combat monster. So PF2 seems to be focused on three pillars too I guess. But PF2's three pillars are Combat, Killing and Fighting.

      ...sigh... Oh well...

      ^_^

      Paul L. Ming
    1. Charlaquin's Avatar
      Charlaquin -
      After what was to me a very promising-looking Fighter preview, Iím very underwhelmed with what Iím seeing here for the rogue. Sneak Attack is fine, but nothing that hasnít come to be expected in any D&D-alike. Debilitating Strikes sound good, but 9th level is WAY too late for what seems to be the classís main sorurce of interesting things to do in combat. Some mobility feats and some flat-footed enabling feats, which are basically just two different flavors of ďmake it easier to set up Sneak Attack,Ē so it seems like for half their careers (or in a campaign of more realistic length, 90% of their careers) their sole activity in combat will consist of attacking for a piddly amount of damage, or attacking for a more reasonable amount of damage, depending on if they can set up whatever circumstance their Feats allow them to use Sneak Attack under.

      Skill Feats every level is fine, but boring. I like Skill Monkeys, but the PF1 fighter proved that ďthe same Feats everyone else can take, but more of themĒ isnít a particularly interesting defining characteristic for a class.
    1. Aldarc's Avatar
      Aldarc -
      Quote Originally Posted by Adso View Post
      Absolutely! That's why we will be playtesting it.
      The PF1 was reliant on Sneak Attack for damage, which was detrimental for rogues as there were so many monsters immune to sneak attack, critical hits, or even flanking. This made the rogue weak in comparison with a number of similar classes that had other tricks up their sleeve. Will the PF2 rogue have anything to address that?
    1. Erdric Dragin's Avatar
      Erdric Dragin -
      Quote Originally Posted by pming View Post
      Wow. I guess they're probably going to rename it from "Rogue" to what it is: "Action-Hero" or maybe "Ninja-Jedi-Batman-Genius".

      All we see is combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat and combat; oh and a totally transparent attempt to hide "and extra COMBAT stuff you can add yourself" under the guise of "and extra skills and feats".

      I wasn't a big fan of PF1. Definitely avoiding PF2. No point if this is the direction they are taking things. I mean, they HAVE to 'balance' the other classes to this monstrosity of a combat monster. So PF2 seems to be focused on three pillars too I guess. But PF2's three pillars are Combat, Killing and Fighting.

      ...sigh... Oh well...

      ^_^

      Paul L. Ming
      It's WotC and 4e/5e all over again. I'm sick of RPG companies doing this. Stick with one edition and just enhance it or clean it up in a new edition, quit overhauling entire systems!
    1. Aldarc's Avatar
      Aldarc -
      Quote Originally Posted by Erdric Dragin View Post
      It's WotC and 4e/5e all over again. I'm sick of RPG companies doing this. Stick with one edition and just enhance it or clean it up in a new edition, quit overhauling entire systems!
      Pathfinder is already a repeatedly-patched 10-year-old system that attempted to clean up a repeatedly-patched ten-year-old system. There are only so many times you can patch a system before it's time to develop a new one.
    1. Adso -
      Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc View Post
      The PF1 was reliant on Sneak Attack for damage, which was detrimental for rogues as there were so many monsters immune to sneak attack, critical hits, or even flanking. This made the rogue weak in comparison with a number of similar classes that had other tricks up their sleeve. Will the PF2 rogue have anything to address that?
      Yes. But, that is more on the monster design side of things which is another blog entirely.
    1. Morrus's Avatar
      Morrus -
      Quote Originally Posted by Erdric Dragin View Post
      It's WotC and 4e/5e all over again. I'm sick of RPG companies doing this. Stick with one edition and just enhance it or clean it up in a new edition, quit overhauling entire systems!
      How's your Ford Model T, by the way? Still running OK?
    1. Arakasius's Avatar
      Arakasius -
      The game has way too much cruft from 3.5, they needed to clean it up. As for the preview it seems fine although I am wanting to read the skills blog to have more of an idea what we can do with all the skills. Here they were mostly showing class feats, so it makes sense itís combat focused. Sneak attack is the rogue thing, so ways to get it off are quite important for them.
    1. houser2112's Avatar
      houser2112 -
      Quote Originally Posted by pming View Post
      Wow. I guess they're probably going to rename it from "Rogue" to what it is: "Action-Hero" or maybe "Ninja-Jedi-Batman-Genius".

      All we see is combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat and combat; oh and a totally transparent attempt to hide "and extra COMBAT stuff you can add yourself" under the guise of "and extra skills and feats".
      Perhaps you missed this:

      Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
      More skill ranks, proficiencies, and skill feats than any other class. One skill feat per level rather than every other level.
      Be patient, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
    1. Ancalagon's Avatar
      Ancalagon -
      Quote Originally Posted by Adso View Post
      Who said anything about chains? I know I didn't.
      My post was specificialy in response to @NaturalZero

      Quote Originally Posted by mach1.9pants View Post
      It has specifically pointed out by the devs that there are no feat chains of the Dodge> Mobility> Spring Attack type. There are the improving ones, like Vital Strike> Improved Vital Strike> Greater Vital Strike, which just make a feat's mechanical effects better.
      Well that is good... as long as this doesn't translate to "do a tiny bit more damage, do a tiny bit more damage in an annoying way, do a tiny bit more damage with your eyes closed, shatter the earth's crust with your massive damage".

      Quote Originally Posted by pming View Post
      Wow. I guess they're probably going to rename it from "Rogue" to what it is: "Action-Hero" or maybe "Ninja-Jedi-Batman-Genius".

      All we see is combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat, combat and combat; oh and a totally transparent attempt to hide "and extra COMBAT stuff you can add yourself" under the guise of "and extra skills and feats".

      I wasn't a big fan of PF1. Definitely avoiding PF2. No point if this is the direction they are taking things. I mean, they HAVE to 'balance' the other classes to this monstrosity of a combat monster. So PF2 seems to be focused on three pillars too I guess. But PF2's three pillars are Combat, Killing and Fighting.

      ...sigh... Oh well...

      ^_^

      Paul L. Ming
      Isn't this kinda true with 5e though? Or D&D in general? I'll admit that PF does it to a greater degree but...
    Comments Leave Comment