Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
  • Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!


    It was a long bank holiday weekend here in the UK, and I sent most of it in the (rare) sun eating BBQ; there were two big Pathfinder 2 blog posts which went up in the meantime. The first dealt with armour and shields; the other was our first look at the new Paladin class!







    • Armor now affects Touch AC; each has a different bonus for AD and TAC.
      • Studded leather +2 AC, +0 TAC
      • Chain shirt +2 AC, +1 TAC, noisy

    • Armor has traits, such as "noisy".
    • Armor has a Dex mod cap to AC, penalties to STR/Dex/Con skill checks, a Speed penalty, and a Bulk value.
    • Potency Runes -- Items can be enhanced with potency runes.
      • Bonuses to attack rolls, increase on number of damage dice (weapons)
      • Bonus to AC, TAC, and saving throws (armor)
      • Example studded leather with +3 armor potency rune gives +5 AC, +3 TAC, and +3 to your saves.
      • Potency runes can be upgraded.

    • Shields -- requires an action to use and gain an AC and TAC bonus for one round.
    • Other gear -- gear has quality levels (poor -2, expert +1, master +2)
    • Interact -- this is a new action, used for grabbing objects, opening doors, drawing weapons, etc.






    • Paladins! Apparently the most contentious class.
    • Core rules have lawful good paladins only (others may appear in other products)
    • Paladin's Code -- paladins must follow their code, or lose their Spell Point pool and righteous ally class feature.
    • Oaths are feats and include Fiendsbane Oath (constant damage to fiends, block their dimensional travel)
    • Class features and feats --
      • Retributive strike (1st level) -- counterattacks and enfeebles a foe
      • Lay on hands (1st level) -- single action healing spell which also gives a one-round AC bonus
      • Divine Grace (2nd level) -- saving throw boost
      • Righteous ally (3rd level) -- house a holy spirit in a weapon or steed
      • Aura of Courage (4th level) -- reduce the frightened condition
      • Attack of Opportunity (6th level) -- presumably the basic AoO action
      • Second Ally (8th level) -- gain a second righteous ally
      • Aura of Righteousness (14th level) -- resist evil damage
      • Hero's defiance (19th level) -- keep standing at 0 HP

    • Litanies -- single action spells, verbal, last one round.
      • Litany of righteousness -- weakens enemy to your allies' attacks
      • Litany against sloth -- slows the enemy, costing reactions or actions

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    Comments 320 Comments
    1. Pokelefi's Avatar
      Pokelefi -
      I was interested in Pathfinder second edition at first.
      But for someone how is still new to table top and pen and paper rpgs this still seams very complex
      I did think it would go as simple like dungeon world or medium complex like 5e.
      I still might give it a try depending how good this is to dm and how fast is is to lern with out know pathfinder first edition

      But that fact that alignment still locks a class is not really what I was looking for...
      Not to mention that I'm disappointed from the ansestery thing I was hoping for a easy to home brew crossbreed option not just race named...
      well maby I will swing around fi the show more how dming there new edition works encounter building and monster building and if it will be a rules heavy (what leads to too much rules lawyering) or dm calls
    1. TwoSix -
      Judging by the posts, I think they're locked in for LG paladins for the playtest (which I think might have gone to the printers already), but they're still evaluating what to do for Core based on feedback.
    1. thekittenhugs's Avatar
      thekittenhugs -
      Paizo continues to hedge all its future bets on its current fanbase loving the complexity of the system above all else, even as the less-hardcore fans are cannibalized by 5e. It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them.
    1. MoonSong's Avatar
      MoonSong -
      Can't say I'm in love with tying paladins so close to deities. But I'll have to wait and see, this stuff seems so complex right now.
    1. Zansy's Avatar
      Zansy -
      PF2 is repeating the same grudge I had with the paladins in PF1. I'm rather disappointed by the perceived inflexibility that paladins have in both PF1 and PF2. all that PF1 had to offer was "The paladin is LG flavor with different shapes of sprinkles on it." That's a very narrow vision for what paladins are and can be, even for the core game (Especially when you say that the rogue, in contrast, is having her options and horizons broadened!) I hope that if and when they move on they'll be able to contemplate that quite a few people don't want to play the paladin because there's only one interpretation of it. the idea of different types of paladins are best off already in the core game, and not a peripheral, or perhaps obscure, supplementary product.
    1. pemerton's Avatar
      pemerton -
      I'm not really into PF, but I am really into paladins as characters in FRPGing. I don't really like the way the "code" has been framed:

      Quote Originally Posted by PF preview View Post
      If a situation places two tenets in conflict, you aren't in a no-win situation; instead, follow the most important tenet. . . .

      * You must never willingly commit an evil act . . .

      * You must not take actions that you know will harm an innocent, or through inaction cause an innocent to come to immediate harm when you knew your action could reasonably prevent it. . . .

      * You must act with honor, never cheating, lying, or taking advantage of others.

      * You must respect the lawful authority of the legitimate ruler or leadership in whichever land you may be, following their laws unless they violate a higher tenet.
      I think that the paladin is a fundamentally hopeful class - it's about faith in divine providence and deliverance. (Denethor's failure in LotR is to have given up hope.)

      Ranking the moral obligations of a paladin, on the other hand, seems fundamentally pessimistic, and hence itself contrary to the paladins' faith.

      The example given in the preview page is of lying to an evil king asked you if innocent lawbreakers were hiding in your church so he could execute them. But if the king asks, the paladin can simply refuse to answer. There's no legitimate law that obliges handing over "innocent lawbreakers" (it's not 100% clear what this means, but we could eg imagine an underground railroad situation).

      The evil king might then imprison the paladin, but to seek to avoid that possibility by lying is precisly the sort of giving up that seems at odd with a paladin's faith.
    1. zztong's Avatar
      zztong -
      The best part about Paladin codes, anathema, and alignment restrictions is that they can be easily ignored or house-ruled without messing up anything else.
    1. Erekose's Avatar
      Erekose -
      Very hard to say from the snippets we see posted but I have to say that each time I see one I can't help but wonder how Pathfinder 2E is going to be significantly better than Pathfinder 1E as opposed to just different . . .
    1. Zansy's Avatar
      Zansy -
      Quote Originally Posted by zztong View Post
      The best part about Paladin codes, anathema, and alignment restrictions is that they can be easily ignored or house-ruled without messing up anything else.
      and the worst part is that too many gaming tables, including (most likely) organized play, won't turn a blind eye to this sort of thing.
    1. pemerton's Avatar
      pemerton -
      Quote Originally Posted by zztong View Post
      The best part about Paladin codes, anathema, and alignment restrictions is that they can be easily ignored or house-ruled without messing up anything else.
      Agreed. But as someone who enjoys both playing and GMing characters with religious convictions, I look at the system's treatment as these matters as a sign of what it envisages for the play of these PC types.
    1. ddaley's Avatar
      ddaley -
      I guess I am just old school at heart... I like that Paladins are tied to being LG. That seems to mesh well with the intent of the class.

      As for the complexity, I think there is still a place for a more in depth rules system. I haven't been following the PF2 news that closely, so am not sure just how complex it is going to be. I have to admit, that reading about the paladin, some of it sounded Greek to me. "Panels to Str/Dex/Con?" No clue. "Image dice?" No clue.
    1. Mouseferatu's Avatar
      Mouseferatu -
      Quote Originally Posted by ddaley View Post
      "Panels to Str/Dex/Con?" No clue. "Image dice?" No clue.
      I could be wrong, but I'm about 90% sure that "panels" is just a typo for "penalties."
    1. Zansy's Avatar
      Zansy -
      Quote Originally Posted by ddaley View Post
      I guess I am just old school at heart... I like that Paladins are tied to being LG. That seems to mesh well with the intent of the class.

      As for the complexity, I think there is still a place for a more in depth rules system. I haven't been following the PF2 news that closely, so am not sure just how complex it is going to be. I have to admit, that reading about the paladin, some of it sounded Greek to me. "Panels to Str/Dex/Con?" No clue. "Image dice?" No clue.
      On paper, If there was any room for interpretation for what LG is, and what their code of conduct should be. I might be able to tolerate it. if they gave out the code of conduct and stuck to just the anathemas and the other rules deities have (their name eludes me at the moment. I apologize--) that would have been fine, it's weird to me that paladins have to follow more rules than, say, clerics of the same faith, but lose everything they have going if they break any of them. even if you put aside all those extra, universal rules - even if Clerics could theoretically "convert" in PF1 and 3.5e by changing deities, paladins don't have that privilege except to be the exact opposite of what he was, and most players don't even get that.

      once again -
      1 flavor of paladin ice cream. with several other shapes of sprinkles. Shapes - not even flavors.
    1. ddaley's Avatar
      ddaley -
      Quote Originally Posted by Zansy View Post
      On paper, If there was any room for interpretation for what LG is, and what their code of conduct should be. I might be able to tolerate it. if they gave out the code of conduct and stuck to just the anathemas and the other rules deities have (their name eludes me at the moment. I apologize--) that would have been fine, it's weird to me that paladins have to follow more rules than, say, clerics of the same faith, but lose everything they have going if they break any of them. even if you put aside all those extra, universal rules - even if Clerics could theoretically "convert" in PF1 and 3.5e by changing deities, paladins don't have that privilege except to be the exact opposite of what he was, and most players don't even get that.

      once again -
      1 flavor of paladin ice cream. with several other shapes of sprinkles. Shapes - not even flavors.
      Paladins have never been for everyone. You have to want to play a paladin. I personally have never played one. I have been in a party where someone did a great job at playing a paladin. If you don't like what is expected of a paladin, then choose another class. No one says that you have to play a paladin. There is nothing special about clerics. Anyone can play one. Paladin is a more niche class.
    1. Morrus's Avatar
      Morrus -
      Quote Originally Posted by Mouseferatu View Post
      I could be wrong, but I'm about 90% sure that "panels" is just a typo for "penalties."
      Damn you, autocorrect!
    1. Zansy's Avatar
      Zansy -
      Quote Originally Posted by ddaley View Post
      Paladins have never been for everyone. You have to want to play a paladin. I personally have never played one. I have been in a party where someone did a great job at playing a paladin. If you don't like what is expected of a paladin, then choose another class. No one says that you have to play a paladin. There is nothing special about clerics. Anyone can play one. Paladin is a more niche class.
      The problem is not that people don't want to play paladins just because they're a niche market. paladins aren't as big a niche as you make them. If paladins were such a niche, as opposed to something iconic that a lot of people want to play, then why haven't hey just stuck with a "knight" or a "cavalier" for the core book and put the paladin in a supplement?

      The real problem, my friend, that paizo isn't thinking about (or at least, are putting on the backburner) is what else a paladin could be - and it should be their every interest for paizo to make the class more accessible and attract a wider audience for it. WotC, in 5e, shows that's possible, they let the paladin pick his own code of conduct from a selection. Even if the selections are limited, and don't cover EVERY possible demographic, they still allow people to think that paladins aren't bound to the stigmas that haunt them.

      there's no shortage of people who want to play a paladin. I want to play a paladin too. I just want the rules to allow me to make the paladin my own.
    1. MechaTarrasque's Avatar
      MechaTarrasque -
      I was kind of hoping the paladin (or a more generic class name like champion) would be more "channel outsider" (of the Outer Planes variety), and if you channeled angels or archons (or any good outsider, since they tend to be one big happy family in PF*), you were a paladin; devils, a hellknight, demons a blackguard, etc.

      And obviously, the better you synched to the outsider, the easier the channel would be, so paladins would have a strong incentive to be good.

      * and letting the paladin channel any of the gooders would make it the best champion, which makes all right with the world.
    1. Parmandur's Avatar
      Parmandur -
      Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
      Agreed. But as someone who enjoys both playing and GMing characters with religious convictions, I look at the system's treatment as these matters as a sign of what it envisages for the play of these PC types.
      The Paladin Code is a rather bizarre mutant form of Consequentialism, whose primary goal is even stated to be avoiding complex ethical conundruma. Seems very un-Paladin.

      At this point it isn't very surprising, but good gravy does each PF2 Class have a huge number of moving parts.
    1. Aldarc's Avatar
      Aldarc -
      I will say this much. 5E is definitely better than Pathfinder when it comes to the issue of Paladin alignment.
    1. Parmandur's Avatar
      Parmandur -
      Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc View Post
      I will say this much. 5E is definitely better than Pathfinder when it comes to the issue of Paladin alignment.
      It seems from this preview that PF2 is sticking to crunch-heavy Alignment all around.
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