Pathfinder 2's Sorcerer Goes "All In" On Bloodlines
  • Pathfinder 2's Sorcerer Goes "All In" On Bloodlines


    Today's preview of the upcoming Pathfinder 2nd Edition is the sorcerer! The sorcerer has had a major redesign, with bloodline becoming even more important than it was in 1st Edition. Now, it determines which of four spell lists you get to use!




    Bloodlines are chosen at 1st level. Your bloodline then determines whether you use arcane, divine, primal, or occult spells. The demonic bloodline is previewed: divine spell list, a spell at each spell level, including fear, slow, disintegrate, and power word stun. Additionally you get signature skills, along with a number of bloodline powers.

    Demonic
    The demons of the Abyss debase all they touch, and one of your ancestors fell victim to their corruption. You're burdened with dark thoughts and the desire for destruction. This urge can be overcome if you choose to fight it, but the beauty of sin calls to you always.
    Spell List divine (Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook 200)
    Signature Skills Athletics, Deception, Intimidation, Religion
    Granted Spells Cantrip: detect magic; 1st: fear; 2nd: resist energy; 3rd: slow; 4th: divine wrath; 5th: banishment; 6th: disintegrate; 7th: divine decree; 8th: power word stun; 9th: meteor swarm
    Bloodline Powers Initial Power: glutton's jaws; Advanced Power: swamp of sloth (2); Greater Power: abyssal wrath (2)


    Those bloodline powers are special spells which use Spell Points (SP equals your Charisma modifier per day). The Glutton's Jaws power is previewed in the blog.

    What bloodlines are available? Here's the list!

    • aberrant (occult)
    • angelic (divine)
    • demonic (divine)
    • draconic (arcane)
    • fey (primal)
    • imperial (arcane)

    As they have always been sorcerers are spontaneous casters. Same number of spell slots as a wizard, using Charisma for spell DCs and the like.

    Sorcerers can also heighten spells spontaneously. Each day you choose two spells; you can cast heightened versions of those spells using any spell slot.

    Sorcerer feats include:

    • Overwhelming Spell (8th level) -- ignore 10 points of resistance to energy
    • Dangerous Sorcery -- bonus damage equal to spell level
    • Blood Magic (8th level) -- give temporary hit points if you are bleeding
    • Wellspring Spell (20th level) -- cast 5th level or lower spells without expending spell slots

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    Comments 57 Comments
    1. Shasarak's Avatar
      Shasarak -
      This actually looks pretty cool. I especially like the versatility of being able to choose the type of spell list your Sorcerer uses.
    1. Imaculata's Avatar
      Imaculata -
      Yep, this looks interesting. I like the idea of making the sorcerer even more distinct from the wizard.
    1. Caliburn101's Avatar
      Caliburn101 -
      A good decision - sorcerers are all about flavour, and the more distinct the alternative flavours, the better the menu.
    1. LuisCarlos17f's Avatar
      LuisCarlos17f -
      Primal and occult spells? Interesting idea. I would allow divine and primal sorcerers in (my mash-up version of) Dark Sun.

      I wonder about the idea of a new hybrid class, mixing sorcerer and incarnum/akasha soulmelds to create something like the favored soul or Kratos, the characters from "God of war" videogame.

      If warpriest (I suggest the name "bellonary", what means "followers of Bellona, Roman war goddess") if a hybrid class among fighter and cleric, why not a hybrid class mixing sorcerer and hexblade/magus to create anything like 3.5 D&D warmage? Yes, a sorcerer with armour, this could be an archetype.
    1. houser2112's Avatar
      houser2112 -
      Sorcerers can also heighten spells spontaneously. Each day you choose two spells; you can cast heightened versions of those spells using any spell slot.
      This is disappointing. Wizards have no such restriction on how many spells per day they can heighten, do they? First Paizo fails to kill off paleovancian casting, and then they nerf the class that is supposed to be our refuge from it. Blah.
    1. MechaTarrasque's Avatar
      MechaTarrasque -
      I like it. I think they mentioned on Paizo.com that devil bloodline is planned for the post-pre-test release (assuming sorcerer tests well). I will be curious what other occult bloodines they introduce at that point.
    1. Superchunk77's Avatar
      Superchunk77 -
      Quote Originally Posted by houser2112 View Post
      This is disappointing. Wizards have no such restriction on how many spells per day they can heighten, do they? First Paizo fails to kill off paleovancian casting, and then they nerf the class that is supposed to be our refuge from it. Blah.
      I believe their ability is in addition to the normal rules for heightening spells via the feat.
    1. zztong's Avatar
      zztong -
      I do like that they get to pick a spell list. (Did I read that right?) I'm not sure why the Devs feel they needed to tie that to Bloodlines as I think any of their four spell lists fit with any of the Bloodlines. This is probably a super-ignorant view, since I've never really be drawn to playing the spontaneous casting classes other than the Bard. I guess I kind of like this change because it seems like it rolls a number of disappointing PF1e classes into one and perhaps creates something that I might be able to enjoy.

      Its not that I don't like spontaneous casting, but to me it always seemed like it was a good mechanic for classes that weren't exclusively casters. So, to me, Paladin, Ranger, Bard all seemed like they should be spontaneous casters with a restricted number of spells per day. Classes that were main-line casters: Wizard, Sorcerer, Magus, Witch, Oracle, Summoner, etc. always felt, to me, like they should have larger numbers of spells to cast per day, but have to memorize them. To me, the appropriate mechanical difference would be that they had different spell lists from which to draw, which allowed them to have different flavors.
    1. MoonSong's Avatar
      MoonSong -
      I love it, somehow. It sounds near perfect. The spell list thing makes the sorcerer one of the most thematic casters around. I guess we could even have Oracle be a bloodline. For some reason consolidating all spontaneous casters into sorcerer sounds quite appealing, as that makes it more special and less superfluous -looking at you 5e-. The free heightens are cool too.
      I'm excited and can't wait for August.
    1. MoonSong's Avatar
      MoonSong -
      Quote Originally Posted by houser2112 View Post
      This is disappointing. Wizards have no such restriction on how many spells per day they can heighten, do they? First Paizo fails to kill off paleovancian casting, and then they nerf the class that is supposed to be our refuge from it. Blah.
      No, no, this isn't two heightens per day. It's two of your spells can be heightened as many times as you want each day for free, without needing a feat. Wizards prepare every spell in advance down to the slot level and they are stuck with it, sorcerers just don't need to care. And if two free heightens is too little, you can always take the feat.
    1. houser2112's Avatar
      houser2112 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Superchunk77 View Post
      I believe their ability is in addition to the normal rules for heightening spells via the feat.
      You need a feat to heighten? I have really missed a lot then. My recollection of the Wizard post made it seem like something that was part of the system (like 5E).
    1. Charlaquin's Avatar
      Charlaquin -
      Quote Originally Posted by houser2112 View Post
      You need a feat to heighten? I have really missed a lot then. My recollection of the Wizard post made it seem like something that was part of the system (like 5E).
      Heightening is part of the system. You normally heighten a spell by preparing it in a higher level spell slot. Sorcerers donít prepare spells. Instead, they can learn higher level versions of spells (youíll also be able to retrain your known spells at certain levels, so if you learn, say, 1st level heal early on, but later want to swap it out for 2nd level heal once you have 2nd level spell slots, you can.) They can also choose two spells per day, and for the rest of the day cast those two spells at any level. Iím not sure what the talk of Feats is all about. Maybe thereíll be a Feat Sorcerers can take to choose more spells to be able to spontaneously heighten in a day?
    1. MoonSong's Avatar
      MoonSong -
      Quote Originally Posted by houser2112 View Post
      You need a feat to heighten? I have really missed a lot then. My recollection of the Wizard post made it seem like something that was part of the system (like 5E).
      I haven't been too up to date with the previews and I don't remember the wizard preview -maybe missed it, maybe saw it but totally forgot about it-, but from what I got from this preview, it sounds like heighten spell is still a feat.
    1. Charlaquin's Avatar
      Charlaquin -
      Quote Originally Posted by MoonSong View Post
      I haven't been too up to date with the previews and I don't remember the wizard preview -maybe missed it, maybe saw it but totally forgot about it-, but from what I got from this preview, it sounds like heighten spell is still a feat.
      Nah, heightening is just a thing any spellcaster can do now, by preparing a spell in a higher level slot. So, with Heal for example, it heals a living target or damages an undead target for 1d8+Mod at first level (or just straight Mod for the 3-Action AOE version.) If you prepare it in a higher level spell slot (known as ďheighteningĒ it), it does an extra 2d8 for each level above first (or just an extra 1d8 with the 3-Action version). Since Sorcerers donít prepare spells, one who takes Heal at 1st level canít exactly heighten it. If she wants to cast a 2nd level Heal, she has to learn it. Or, she can choose Heal as one of her two spells per day that she can spontaneously heighten, allowing her to cast Heal at any level she has slots for that day.
    1. MoonSong's Avatar
      MoonSong -
      Quote Originally Posted by Charlaquin View Post
      Nah, heightening is just a thing any spellcaster can do now, by preparing a spell in a higher level slot. So, with Heal for example, it heals a living target or damages an undead target for 1d8+Mod at first level (or just straight Mod for the 3-Action AOE version.) If you prepare it in a higher level spell slot (known as ďheighteningĒ it), it does an extra 2d8 for each level above first (or just an extra 1d8 with the 3-Action version). Since Sorcerers donít prepare spells, one who takes Heal at 1st level canít exactly heighten it. If she wants to cast a 2nd level Heal, she has to learn it. Or, she can choose Heal as one of her two spells per day that she can spontaneously heighten, allowing her to cast Heal at any level she has slots for that day.
      I'm really hoping sorcerers get a generous amount of spells known now...
    1. houser2112's Avatar
      houser2112 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Charlaquin View Post
      Heightening is part of the system. You normally heighten a spell by preparing it in a higher level spell slot. Sorcerers donít prepare spells. Instead, they can learn higher level versions of spells (youíll also be able to retrain your known spells at certain levels, so if you learn, say, 1st level heal early on, but later want to swap it out for 2nd level heal once you have 2nd level spell slots, you can.) They can also choose two spells per day, and for the rest of the day cast those two spells at any level. Iím not sure what the talk of Feats is all about. Maybe thereíll be a Feat Sorcerers can take to choose more spells to be able to spontaneously heighten in a day?
      How... inelegant. If wizards can heighten just by preparing in a higher level slot, sorcerers should be able to heighten by spontaneously casting from a higher level slot. By forcing them to swap the lower level version to get the higher level version, they lose the ability to cast the lower. Throwing them the "2 free per day" bone is fiddliness that sorcerers don't want; if they did, they'd be wizards instead.
    1. Charlaquin's Avatar
      Charlaquin -
      Quote Originally Posted by houser2112 View Post
      How... inelegant. If wizards can heighten just by preparing in a higher level slot, sorcerers should be able to heighten by spontaneously casting from a higher level slot. By forcing them to swap the lower level version to get the higher level version, they lose the ability to cast the lower. Throwing them the "2 free per day" bone is fiddliness that sorcerers don't want; if they did, they'd be wizards instead.
      To be fair, you donít have to swap out a lower level version of a spell for a higher level version; you could just learn and keep both versions of you want to.

      Yeah, itís definitely inelegant. It would be nice if you could cast any spell you know at any level just by expending the appropriate level slot. But I could see that being too powerful when every other spellcaster has to prepare each individual spell by slot level.
    1. MoonSong's Avatar
      MoonSong -
      Quote Originally Posted by Charlaquin View Post
      To be fair, you donít have to swap out a lower level version of a spell for a higher level version; you could just learn and keep both versions of you want to.

      Yeah, itís definitely inelegant. It would be nice if you could cast any spell you know at any level just by expending the appropriate level slot. But I could see that being too powerful when every other spellcaster has to prepare each individual spell by slot level.
      It all depends. As it is, it doesn't sound all that different from the Cure minor wounds, cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds... situation. It all comes to the ratio between two factors: 1) how many spells actually heighten in a meaningful way and 2) how many spells known the sorcerer has. The less of the former and the more of the latter the better, but if it is a lot of the former and not much of the latter, well, that is what playtest feedback is for.
    1. Kaodi -
      I like this "a sorcerer for every spell type" business. I also like that we got another preview on a Wednesday? They have been Mondays and Fridays for the most part, have they not?

      Now I really just want a Dragon preview. Give me those sweet sweet wyrm deets.
    1. Charlaquin's Avatar
      Charlaquin -
      Quote Originally Posted by Kaodi View Post
      I also like that we got another preview on a Wednesday?
      Huh?

      Quote Originally Posted by Kaodi View Post
      They have been Mondays and Fridays for the most part, have they not?.
      They have been entirely on Mondays and Fridays, the Sorcerer one included.
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