Hey Blackjaw, great to have you back. This is great stuff here, really. I have a bunch of questions and concerns, and maybe even a suggestion or two, but I think you're taking the right general approach with this. Very cool.
Enough about how clever you are. Let's get on with making it even better:
Why do Aberrations and Plants not have Constitution scores? These types should be exactly the same as in the MM, or else they should have new names.
Why are the types Aberration, Plant and Undead listed on the Traits chart as Organic, Plant and Undead? Why not the same?
Why do Plant and Aberration types get fast healing? Shouldn't they get the normal healing all creatures get -- 1 hp/HD/day?
Could "Vessel" be considered a Type Modifier, like "Cold", "Fire" or "Incorporeal"? That would mean we could use the existing type descriptions for Aberration, Construct, Plant and Undead, modified by the "Vessel" (or maybe "Vehicle") description.
"A vehicle's Dexterity score is that of its Pilot." -- wouldn't this only apply to vehicles whose controls are Dex-based, rather than Wis-based? Maybe vessels simply have no Dexterity score and we have to come up with how they make Reflex Saves, for example.
"Base Hardness" -- isn't this just "Hardness" as defined in PHB, p. 136? Shouldn't it be described just the same way? Hardness has been released in the SRD, so we can use it as is.
Vehicle Size Chart --
"Lift" is undefined.
Why does hardness increase with size?
Speed -- Why can't a vehicle have a speed of 0? Surely a balloon has a speed of 0. I think Speed calculation needs to be rethought. Maybe we shouldn't be using a doubling mechanism -- is there a logic behind that or is it just simpler than making up numbers?
Glide Speed Points -- Components that add speed points surely are things like engines and so on. Why would they add glide speed points? Likewise, wings shouldn't add speed points, but they could certainly add glide speed point. The reference here is misleading because it indicates that only components with Speed points add Glide Speed points.
Maneuverability Points -- what happens if I build a vehicle with no Maneuverability points? Or not enough to make Clumsy? Does it crash if I try to fly it? Or what? We need to cover this.
Lift -- first you say if a vehicle's lift score is lower than its hit dice it cannot fly in gravity. Then you give us a formula for determining a vehicle's minimum speed that appears to depend on the lift score being lower than the vehicle's hit dice. It's unclear. And I think the calculation you're using has some problems. First off, you're assuming lift is generated by speed in all cases. What about lift generated by lighter-than-air effects? Such an effect will ONLY work if the lift is greater than the vehicle's hit dice. Maybe there need to be different categories of lift. Secondly, I think that minimum speed should be independent of a vehicle's Speed rating. That is, for value x of lift at value y of size, minimum speed will always be some function of x and y, regardless of the vehicle's available speed.
In fact, the calculation ought to work such that the lift/size function determines the minimum speed the vehicle must have in order to achieve lift-off. That way, you can design a vehicle that compensates for low lift by having a high Speed.
Vehicle Power -- Not complicated, and never fluctuates. Actual vehicle power is constant. The vehicle crew can, presumably, switch power-consuming components off and on -- make it a move-equivalent action to switch a component off or on, so as a full action you can "unhook" one component and "hook up" another. But there's no need to keep track of "Free Power" -- either a component is on or off, and if it's on, it drains power.
Vehicle Hardness -- do we really need to worry about this? Hardness is a standard quality of objects and any component that affects it ought to say so clearly.
Design Foci: These are like racial or cultural or ancestor feats, right?
Is there any way to bring the Feat mechanic in here? Components are like Feats, really, I suppose.
Stat Block definition is needed. For example, neither Design Focus nor Lift actually need to be listed in the Stat Block, since they are qualities that affect or determine other ratings. It would be good to provide a walk through of the stat block at the beginning of the chapter, much like pages 5-14 of the MM. Then we can have sample vessels, followed by "How-To" notes, perhaps.
You think it needs work now, you should have seen my first draft.
I've basicaly reached a point on this chapter where I'm in a rut. I've been working on it for so long that "I can't see the forest from the trees."
I need you guys to help me out here, get a fresh take.... consider what I have as a starting point:
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Why do Aberrations and Plants not have Constitution scores? These types should be exactly the same as in the MM, or else they should have new names.
Why are the types Aberration, Plant and Undead listed on the Traits chart as Organic, Plant and Undead? Why not the same?
Why do Plant and Aberration types get fast healing? Shouldn't they get the normal healing all creatures get -- 1 hp/HD/day?
Could "Vessel" be considered a Type Modifier, like "Cold", "Fire" or "Incorporeal"? That would mean we could use the existing type descriptions for Aberration, Construct, Plant and Undead, modified by the "Vessel" (or maybe "Vehicle") description.
"A vehicle's Dexterity score is that of its Pilot." -- wouldn't this only apply to vehicles whose controls are Dex-based, rather than Wis-based? Maybe vessels simply have no Dexterity score and we have to come up with how they make Reflex Saves, for example.
Basicaly, why arn't they more like creatures from which I have blatently taken their names? Good questions. Answer: I dunno. I supose if we are reworkign the system we should take that into acount.
Oh and about vehilces with wisdom piloting... why does this apply to something outside standard piloting skills? A larger vehilce with a computerized control system (or what not) may use wisdom modifiers for piloting, but if your piloting why wouldn't you still be reflex (dex) based for saves? or does it not get a save? or does it not have the ability to react quickly so you make the save at +0 (+handling)??? I'm still kinda ify on when a vehilce is a Wisdom piloting vehilce and when it is a Dex vehicle.
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"Base Hardness" -- isn't this just "Hardness" as defined in PHB, p. 136? Shouldn't it be described just the same way? Hardness has been released in the SRD, so we can use it as is.
Vehicle Hardness -- do we really need to worry about this? Hardness is a standard quality of objects and any component that affects it ought to say so clearly.
I basicaly thought vehicles should get more and more hardness the larger they were, with the option of adding more as a component. At one point I only had construct vehilces (and another group called object vehilces) getting hardness while living and plant vehicles got fast healing.
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Vehicle Size Chart --
"Lift" is undefined.
Oops. Lift multipliers based on vehicle size is something I've mentioned before in ohter chapters I think. Basicaly, according to the DMG, the chart for how much a creature can lift is for Medium creatures. A larger creature can crry twice as much, and so on. I've taken that basic concept and extended it out along our vessel sizes. A Fine Vehilce with a STR score of 20 can carry as much as a Medium sized person with a score of 20, but a Colossal Vessel with a score of 20 can lift x256 times as much. Thats a basic extention of the current d20 rules for how much a STR score can lift. For vehilces, the STR score effects cargo weight in this way. Carrying a dragon's hoard in a couple of cargo bays might FIT inside the vehilce, but it will way a LOT. Cargo bays only provide space for goods, but not a system for pulling them around.
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Vehicle Power -- Not complicated, and never fluctuates. Actual vehicle power is constant. The vehicle crew can, presumably, switch power-consuming components off and on -- make it a move-equivalent action to switch a component off or on, so as a full action you can "unhook" one component and "hook up" another. But there's no need to keep track of "Free Power" -- either a component is on or off, and if it's on, it drains power.
That's a cleaner version then mine... although it might require that some of the systems with variable power amounts (sheilds) need tweaking. My system was kinda like a wand that restocked itself with charges each round.... but your system is easier and cleaner to use.
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Design Foci: These are like racial or cultural or ancestor feats, right?
Kinda. I figured a design focus was something the vehilce's builder might have as a feat... but it direclty affects the vehicle's stats even after its made and been sold to some new owner. Only one focus, even if the maker has more then one, can be applied to a vehilce.
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Speed -- Why can't a vehicle have a speed of 0? Surely a balloon has a speed of 0. I think Speed calculation needs to be rethought. Maybe we shouldn't be using a doubling mechanism -- is there a logic behind that or is it just simpler than making up numbers?
Glide Speed Points -- Components that add speed points surely are things like engines and so on. Why would they add glide speed points? Likewise, wings shouldn't add speed points, but they could certainly add glide speed point. The reference here is misleading because it indicates that only components with Speed points add Glide Speed points.
Maneuverability Points -- what happens if I build a vehicle with no Maneuverability points? Or not enough to make Clumsy? Does it crash if I try to fly it? Or what? We need to cover this.
Lift -- first you say if a vehicle's lift score is lower than its hit dice it cannot fly in gravity. Then you give us a formula for determining a vehicle's minimum speed that appears to depend on the lift score being lower than the vehicle's hit dice. It's unclear. And I think the calculation you're using has some problems. First off, you're assuming lift is generated by speed in all cases. What about lift generated by lighter-than-air effects? Such an effect will ONLY work if the lift is greater than the vehicle's hit dice. Maybe there need to be different categories of lift. Secondly, I think that minimum speed should be independent of a vehicle's Speed rating. That is, for value x of lift at value y of size, minimum speed will always be some function of x and y, regardless of the vehicle's available speed.
In fact, the calculation ought to work such that the lift/size function determines the minimum speed the vehicle must have in order to achieve lift-off. That way, you can design a vehicle that compensates for low lift by having a high Speed.
Is there any way to bring the Feat mechanic in here? Components are like Feats, really, I suppose.
You see, that make obvious sense right now, but when I was writing this all up from scratch, I didn't know what I was doing and was kinda making stuff up as I went along. I did a doubling system for speed points becaue I didn't know what else to do. I wrote up all the systems with speed scores to apply glide speed at a fraction of their speed scores, and so on.
Components are something closer to character levels, or special qualities, then feats.
A manuverability of 0 would mean the vehilce is unconrtolable. trying to fly it would be like trying to ride a bucking bronco... or a missile. It would probably swivel about and go everywhich direction. If it was built to fly stable but had not controls, trying to fly it would basicaly mean controlling speed, but not turning at all (even as a stunt) and not controlling altitiude. hmmm... we might need rules for this. A hot air ballon would have both a speed and manuveriblity of 0.... but it would still fly.
basicaly you've helped me out here by looking at all the stupid things I did because I didn't know where to start... let me run some ideas past you now that you got me thinking "outside the box" I arbitrarily put myself in.
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
As far as I can tell, these are the ideas that worked, more or less:
1) A vehicle is limited in how much equipment, like guns, engines, power sources, living space, and cargo space, it can hold. This limit is equal to its number of Hit Dice. Some equipment is bigger then others and take up more space. The size of a component is measured in component slots. A vehicle’s number Hit dice is its maximum number of component slots. Some components use 0 component slots, but still cost money and apply to the vehicle’s stats when compiled.
2) Components generally provide either a positive or negative number to functions like power, speed, maneuvering, armor class, etc. These numbers are latter added up by type and compared against a chart (based on vehicle size) to give maneuverability ratings, speed scores, etc. This chart method means that a small but powerful engine might make for a fast fighter-craft but putting the same engine in a large cargo ship isn’t going to give the same amount of speed.
4) Some components also directly add other features. Having a Brig component gives space to securely lock up people or creatures, and the listing for that component also holds information on breaking out of the brig. It works some what like a special quality like a creature might posses.
5) Weapons and defensive system also have a few special stats because they, like the sword or shield or wand in an adventure’s hand, can be targeted directly. They have a separate number of hit points (10 + 10 per component slot in size) and use a separate size modifier for AC (but otherwise uses the vehicle’s AC)
6) It is not possible to attack primary ship systems directly. You don’t get to call shots on engines, life support, or power systems anymore then you get to call shots on heads, hearts, or kidneys in normal D&D. It is assumed that an attack is intended to do damage, and anything doing Hit Point damage is hitting vitals to some degree. Similarly, criticals and sneak attacks do more damage because they are hitting said vitals better. Basic D&D/D20 concept.
NEW/MODIFIED IDEAS:
Designing a vehicle should work along these steps:
1)Pick a Type and Size. This gives BASIC creature like stats for it. Hit Dice ranges, type of hit dice, base “natural,” etc. This is considered the Hull of the vehicle. These base stats have no speed, maneuvering, glide, min speed, etc to them. It also posses no attacks or other real powers. What base Attributes (str, dex, con, etc) provided at this level are determined by type. Constructs have few, but organic ships might have more, including Con or even Int and Wis.
1a) Types: Aberration… any type of living (organic) ship including animal like ones through giant bloated spidery Drow ships. Plant… all those Elf ships made from living plants grown into the shape of a vehicle or magically shaped into it. Construct… A ship made form artificial parts and materials then animated (through magic, machines, or psionics) so that if moves. A normal airplane for example. Types give the basic immunites associated with them, so constructs are immune to poison and negative energy, while living ships can be “fixed” with Cure spells but can also gain negative levels or be poisoned.
1b) all the above posses the “vehicle” type. This type has certain properties as of yet, undefined. One note might be that they can be piloted… thus a living ship can still be piloted because it is made/grown to do so even though normal mounted rules don’t work that way. (how many griffons have cockpits?) Another feature of the vehicle type is no immunity to critical hits, sneak attacks, favored enemy damage bonuses, or related powers… although death from massive damage is still ruled out along with some similarly inappropriate attacks.
1c) Aberration and Undead vehicle might be able to fly themselves (pilot ranks with their own Dex scores) but because they have the Vehicle type, they can be over ridden by an actual pilot (and the ship’s own minor intelligence becomes an automatic co-pilot). This kind of vehicle with intelligence might also be a good case of when Wis based piloting is used instead of Dex based piloting?? Obviously construct and plant types don’t have these built in piloting systems… although that could be a component that can be added (IE: golem ships). The “vehicle intelligence” and stats are built into the base hull stats.
1d) Construct ships also get to choose a hull material. This provides the vehicle with a hardness score. To the few material types I’ve already started using I should also add Bone. This would be for vehicles made from skeletons of large animals/etc but not actually animated with necromancy.
1e) plant ships and organic ships get to heal like living creatures (maybe fast healing as a feature for one or the other)
2) Components are purchased and added to a vehicle (with a cap at the vehicle’s # of HD). These components provide the speed and manuverabilty, and the glide speed and maneuvering. The Min speed, however, comes from the ship’s size from step 1(altered by lift). Thus when you go to chose components, like engine(s), you know where you stand from the start as far as how much you need to buy for the vehicle to work at all.
3) The components are all compiled into the vehicle’s final stats (and the vehicle’s maker may apply a special vehicle focus feat at this time) Most components simply go into the standard stats.
3a) Added to the normal stats of a monster/creature are the following: Glide speed + maneuverability, Minimum speed, crew, power, supported, vehicle wepaons (see 3c) and handling modifier. (did I leave anything out?)
3b) Some components do more then provide basic stats. These features of a component should be marked as “special qualities” and be put in that proper section. (and listed with those functions as special qualities in the component description.)
3c) similar in nature to a creature’s “special attacks” section of stats is a new area called “vehicle weapons” this lists all of the vehicles weapons, their attack modifier (made from the weapon’s accuracy, the vehicle’s size modifier, etc) their range increment, damage + type, etc. Also in the description of the creature/vehilce the full stats for each weapon, including operators, reload time, individual armor class (made from the vehicle’s armor class but using the weapons own size instead of the entire vehicle’s size) etc are listed… much like how the description of a dragon has a paragraph on its breath weapon.
NOTE: as an added bonus, this system becomes closer to making a way to give a vehilce an ECL. (the vehilce increases the difficulty of fighting its crew... but the base challenge still has to do with the skills/powers of the crew)
Things that need discussion:
1)Vessels with a speed of 0... what are the rules if they are even considered vessels (let alone vehicles)
2) vessels with maneuverability of less then clumsy (do we consider them vessels, and if so, do we want to make up rules for a NEW maneuverability ratting?)
3) what are the other features of the [vehicle] type besides allowing direct piloting and allowing critical/etc. can we just slap that type on just about anything and make it a pilot-able vehicle? (I both like and dislike that idea... if adding the vehicle type gives you the power to pilot something instead of just “riding it” it becomes a much nicer system for some DMs already familiar with monster making. Keep in mind that we already have rules for determining the min. speed for monsters, and can fairly easily say that most monsters have a glide speed the same as their standard speed… but what about handling modifiers for things that we otherwise would have said piloted themselves with a +8 bonus?)
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
Originally posted by BlackJaw As far as I can tell, these are the ideas that worked, more or less:
A vehicle’s number Hit dice is its maximum number of component slots.
Yes. Great, simple system.
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Components generally provide either a positive or negative number to functions like power, speed, maneuvering, armor class, etc.
Agreed. Another good idea.
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Some components also directly add other features. It works some what like a special quality like a creature might posses.
Exactly like creatures, is my thinking. The more like creatures, the better.
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Weapons and defensive system also have a few special stats because they, like the sword or shield or wand in an adventure’s hand, can be targeted directly.
Let's say that SOME components, whether they be defensive or offensive or other, may have special stats because they can be targetted. Basically we are talking about any component that can be targetted the way an object in a character's hand can be targetted. I would allow as DM a Sunder attack made against a steel pipe in a character's hand, regardless of whether or not it was a weapon.
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It is not possible to attack primary ship systems directly.
This is a corollary to the point above. Only components that have hit points can be attacked directly. So for example if a component (Life Support, for example) does not have a hit point value, it is not a legitimate target for an attack.
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NEW/MODIFIED IDEAS:
1)Pick a Type and Size.
1a) Types:
Types are exactly the same as the types in the Monster Manual.
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1b) all the above posses the “vehicle” type.
Properly speaking, "Vehicle" is a type modifier. It adds specific properties to the actual type. With the combination of Type and Type Modifier, the vessel is clearly defined as such, and its immunities, vulnerabilities and other properties are all derived from those two descriptors.
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1c) Aberration and Undead vehicle might be able to fly themselves (pilot ranks with their own Dex scores) but because they have the Vehicle type, they can be over ridden by an actual pilot
A vessel is either a creature or a vehicle. It can never simultaneously behave as both, though the vehicle type modifier does not preclude the possibility that a vessel may be a creature. But I believe that if a vessel is a creature, it always has creature properties (it can take a run action, it is always under control unless the creature is incapacitated, etc). In order for a creature to become a vehicle, the creature must be unable to control its own movement. At which point it is a vehicle and not a creature. In any event, this has nothing to do with the Type of the vessel.
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This kind of vehicle with intelligence might also be a good case of when Wis based piloting is used instead of Dex based piloting??
No. If the vessel is a creature then the rider may use the Aid Another action to assist the creature's Piloting checks. This has nothing to do with which attribute the creature uses for those Piloting checks.
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Obviously construct and plant types don’t have these built in piloting systems
I don't consider that obvious at all.
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The “vehicle intelligence” and stats are built into the base hull stats.
I disagree. Some of the actual ability scores of a vessel are determined the same way they are for any creature -- pretty much by DM fiat. Only Strength and Dexterity, I would argue, are not available to a Vehicle -- Strength is determined by the vehicle's components and size, and Dexterity -- well, maybe a Vehicle has no Dexterity score, the same way an Undead has no Constitution score. A vehicle's nimbleness is restricted by the ability of the pilot at its controls. Reflex Saves become a problem to be solved, in that case.
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1d)To the few material types I’ve already started using I should also add Bone.
I assume Bone has a hardness of 0. Otherwise, wouldn't skeletons have a hardness?
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1e) plant ships and organic ships get to heal like living creatures
Agreed.
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The Min speed, however, comes from the ship’s size from step 1(altered by lift).
I think we need two kinds of lift. I can't see any other way to do it. We need Pure Lift and Speed Lift. Pure Lift works directly against the vessel's size (Hit Dice). Every point of Pure Lift counteracts one Hit Die. If the Pure Lift equals the Hit Dice, the vessel can fly. Speed Lift works with Hit Dice to determine Minimum Speed. Take the Hit Dice left over after applying Pure Lift (if any) and apply some function to them and the number of points of Speed Lift to determine the vessel's Minimum Speed. If your engine component provides at least that much Speed your vessel can take off.
This system means that a lighter-than-air craft has no Minimum Speed (as it should) and heavier-than-air craft always have a Minimum Speed based on a relationship between their size and the amount of lift their components can generate. So you can choose, say, extra-large wings to generate tons of lift and only need a wee little engine. Or if you have stubby wings you need a great big rocket in the back of your Undead Bone Ship.
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Added to the normal stats of a monster/creature are the following: Glide speed + maneuverability, Minimum speed, crew, power, supported, vehicle wepaons (see 3c) and handling modifier. (did I leave anything out?)
What's "supported"?
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Some components do more then provide basic stats. These features of a component should be marked as “special qualities” and be put in that proper section.
Sure, that's simple.
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3c) similar in nature to a creature’s “special attacks” section of stats is a new area called “vehicle weapons”
Makes sense to me.
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NOTE: as an added bonus, this system becomes closer to making a way to give a vehilce an ECL.
Good point.
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Things that need discussion:
1)Vessels with a speed of 0... what are the rules if they are even considered vessels (let alone vehicles)
Right. We might want to say that a vessel requires a Speed of greater than zero. But we might not. Is there a real difference between, say, a sailing ship and a balloon? Not much, thinks I. So if we're thinking of covering sailships we ought to cover balloons, too.
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2) vessels with maneuverability of less then clumsy (do we consider them vessels, and if so, do we want to make up rules for a NEW maneuverability ratting?)
I think that Clumsy should be the default value for Maneuverability. There's a minimum number of Man. Points that must be applied to any vessel in order to reach Poor, but if you haven't got that many you're Clumsy. Good enough.
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3) what are the other features of the [vehicle] type besides allowing direct piloting and allowing critical/etc. can we just slap that type on just about anything and make it a pilot-able vehicle?
Sure. I mean, if it hasn't got power, engines and control systems it's pretty useless, but yeah, I like the idea.
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Keep in mind that we already have rules for determining the min. speed for monsters, and can fairly easily say that most monsters have a glide speed the same as their standard speed… but what about handling modifiers for things that we otherwise would have said piloted themselves with a +8 bonus?)
Huh? Are you saying what if we turn a griffin (with a racial +8 bonus to Piloting checks) into a vehicle? That +8 is gone, baby. It's in the griffin's head and nervous system. If we decide that a griffin design deserves a handling modifier then that's a function of that vehicle's design. But creatures don't get handling modifiers so that's not a problem.
"big-old-cargo-ship-name-here" -- The vehicle's name
Large Vessel - Construct (Vehicle) -- The vehicle's type with "vehicle" subtype
Hit Dice: 100D10 (505hp) -- The vehicle's number of hitdice and hit points
Initiative: as Pilot -- They don't react, the pilot does.
Speed: 150' (poor) -- Determined by componets
Glide: 90' (clumsy) -- Determined by componets
Min. Speed: 90' -- Determined by componets
Handling Modifier: -5 -- Determined by componets... including size
Crew: 8 -- Determined by componets, if not fully staffed a penatly to piloting checks is applied equal to number missing
Supported: 20 -- The ship can feed/air/water this many people for 100 days
Power: 20 Electric -- total power & type
AC: Pilot's Dex. Mod. +4 -- Armor class (-16 size, +10 natural, + 10 armor) applied to the Dex modifier of hte pilot. Some feats (dodge) and bonuses (insight) apply too.
Face/Reach: 60' by 128’/30' -- within size category/face by size
Special Attacks: Ram 64d10 -- This is a not a normal attack (IE slam) but it is an attack the vehicle, not a vehilce weapon, makes.
Vessel Weapons: 4 Blaster Cannons (+3, 90', 2 front/1right/1left, 3d10 lightning) -- Spicifics listed bellow
Special Qualities: Hardness 10, Cargo bay 500'/179,200 lbs, Quarters -- spicifics listed bellow
Saves: Fort +30, Ref as pilot -5, Will +30 -- By Hit Dice and type (a 100 HD construct has "poor" saves on all, but as a vehilce the reflex save is the pilot's minus the handling modifier
Abilities: STR 40, DEX as Pilot, CON -, INT -, WIS as Pilot, CHA as Pilot -- pilot is the Dex score, Str is by engines/size, as construct it has no INT or CON, but what about WIS & CHA?
Skills: none
Climate/Terrain: Space & Atmosphere
Organization: Solitary or caravan (4 +1d6)
Encoutner Level Modifier: +10 --instead of a CR ratting becasue vehiles are pointless without crews. take the CR of the pilot if just one man, or take the EL of the crew and add this modifier... remember to do the same for the PCs' ship and level for determing a fair fight
Treasure: none/cargo -- You'd list the value or contents of the cargo bay, if any
Alignment: none (object)/as pilot -- do we use the pilot or do we use none?
Advancement: special -- you wouldn't use this for a vehilce because advancement isn't just adding HD.
Description of ship
Combat
Construct Traits
Vehilce Traits: (including allowing criticals)
Hardness: 10 (made of iron/metal)
Ram: when a pilot succseffuly rams a target, it does 64d10 damage.
Blaster Cannon: A big cannon that fires charged engery orbs. The weapon uses 3 power, has an instanious recharge rate, can be operated remotly, has 30 Hp, an armor class of +18 (-2 size, +10 natural, + 10 armor). Two cannons face forward, with another facing to the right, and fourth to the left.
Cargo bays: the vehilce has a massive cargo bay that can hold 500 cubic feat of materail. The engines can carry cargo as a character with a STR 40 but increased by x32 for size (179,200 lbs as heavy load).
Quarters: 2 nice quarters, and 6 standard bunks.
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
This is GREAT! Very cool. This is really starting to look like it's going to work. Nice job.
I, of course, have some comments.
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Originally posted by BlackJaw Initiative: as Pilot -- They don't react, the pilot does.
Yes. Correct.
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AC: Pilot's Dex. Mod. +4 -- Armor class (-16 size, +10 natural, + 10 armor) applied to the Dex modifier of hte pilot. Some feats (dodge) and bonuses (insight) apply too.
Hm. Are we abandoning the notion that Piloting can use Wisdom instead of Dexterity for some vessels? I would argue that a sailing ship's AC can be affected by the actions of its captain, so if the captain's skill involves Wisdom then perhaps a vessel AC may be modified by either Wisdom or Dexterity?
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Special Attacks: Ram 64d10 -- This is a not a normal attack (IE slam) but it is an attack the vehicle, not a vehilce weapon, makes.
Right, so one quality that the "vehicle" type modifier possesses is the ram attack -- all vehicles get this attack. For a creature a ram attack is just a normal attack.
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Saves: Ref as pilot -5 ... as a vehilce the reflex save is the pilot's minus the handling modifier
Great solution. Brilliant.
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Abilities: STR 40, DEX as Pilot, CON -, INT -, WIS as Pilot, CHA as Pilot -- pilot is the Dex score, Str is by engines/size, as construct it has no INT or CON, but what about WIS & CHA?
A Construct may have an Intelligence score. It also has Wisdom and Charisma scores (though those may be 0, of course). A 747, for example, has Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma of 0. However, Zaphod Beeblebrox' Heart Of Gold definitely has stats for all three. If I remember correctly. A vehicle can have a personality without being a creature (for our purposes), you see.
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Alignment: none (object)/as pilot -- do we use the pilot or do we use none?
A vessel might have an alignment of its on, or it might have no alignment at all. Magic items, for example, can have an alignment or not. But no, a vehicle does not take on the alignment of its pilot.
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Vehilce Traits: (including allowing criticals)
Okay, so another trait of vehicles is that they are vulnerable to critical hits. Even if they are undead or constructs or plants. So we have that, the ram attack, the ability to acquire components, the new size categories, the Minimum Speed and Glide Speed ratings, the Handling Modifier, the Crew, Supported and Power ratings, the new AC, Initiative and Reflex Saves, the new Dexterity and the new CR determination system.
Note that I left out about a half-dozen or more diffrent "specail qualities" that a vehilce probably has, including a Bridge with a number of bridge stations, etc.
Ideas:
Saves/Ability scores: A vehilce's Dexterity score is the Pilot's score. A vehilce' reflex save is the pilot's save minus the handling modifier (because it involves moving). I'm currently toying with the idea that the vehilce's Wis and Cha scores are the pilot's score... atlhought those two featers (common even on oozes, constructs, and undead) might be by type. Thus the Will save would be by type/size (and in 99% of cases a vehicle is immune anyway)
Encumbrance. Vehilce should have encumbrance for cargo... and it should probably be listed with cargo bays. The vehicle's STR score can be used and under d20 system, creature size gives a multiplier to this STR listing in the PHB. Problem: when determining the cargo listing do we use light, medium, or heavey. If we allow loads over light load, doe we institute some sort of vehilce slowing and piloting penalty like those with encumbrance? what about the Dex cap... technicaly if we use striat D&D rules here, we'd have to cap the pilot's Dex score and give a skill check penalty (which would include piloting) resulting in large penalties for loading a ship above light load. I kinda like that idea even still. I'd say we only count cargo goods for this ratting and ignore crew. Should a vehilce load up on people (above crew score) then we count their weight as cargo. Remember crew size counts too... 2 small = 1 medium. 2 medium = 1 large... etc. Keeping a dragon in the cargo bay can be a problem. ( I didn't do this correctly in the block above)
Types: mostly vehicle will be of the Construct, Undead, and Plant types... You can also fairly easily make a living organic ship with no inteligence... but if we wanted a living Inteligent ship (some SciFi works that way... ever seen Farscape, Bab5, or a few of the StarTrek shows?) do we have that ship always pilot itself and call it mounted rules (thus no vehilce type, but maybe still use some of the components and special vehilce weapons/etc) or do we have inteligent ships hard ruled that they can't pilot themselves... or what? It seems like a bad idea to tell people that it just can't be done. I kinda like the idea that you can fly an inteligent ship if it lets you... if you grew it so it had controls (instead of just sitting on it and yank a cord to give it orders on where you want to go like in mounted combat) but the ship can always re-assert itself, generlay acts as a copilot, etc... The alternative to this concept is that we require that the Vehicle sub-type removes Int scores/can't be applied to something with an Int score... and again we have the rules simply telling people "No." Couldn't we just look at it as "you can't pilot it unless it has the Vehilce subtype, and if it has the vehilce sub type and an inteligence score then it is a vehilce that can pilot itself." We could even setup a component that gives vehilces Int scores (kinda like an advanced autopilot)??? or do you have another idea how to work this. Just write it out as "if it has an Inteligence score, then you can not pilot it, only ride it?"
Speed, Lift, Glide, manuvering, the works: So your idea for determing these improtant features is this(?):
1) a ship's minum speed is determined by comparing it's Primary Lift againts it's Size. If it's Primary Lift is equal to or greater then its HD, then it's min. speed is 0 (hover).
2)If the ship's Primary Lift is not equal to or greater then its HD, then we subtract the Primary Lift & Speed Lift from the HD, take the resulting number and use that to determine the Min. Speed (but the speed must 30' or more). The vehilce's engines must meet that speed or better to fly in gravity.
3) speed is determiend by adding up all Speed points & glide speed points and comparing it to a table.
4) Glide speed is determiend by adding up all glide speed points (which come from components that do not need power) and comparing that to the same table above.
5) Manuveribilty and Glide man. work in the same way. The table lists clumsy as the worst option for a vehicle/vessel.
How do we do Vehilce STR scores? base amount (by size and/or type) + system based off the vehicle's Speed & lift? Or is it base by size (which assumes the engines/components are that strong to get it airborne) and maybe special components (option in my Engine component desing) increase the Str score spicificaly thus letting vehicles be designed to carry lots of cargo not nessisarily go faster or hover? some other idea?
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
You can pilot some vehilces with the Wisdom skill... but that's just for the Pilot skill. you don't get to use your Wisdom everywhere else. Sure you can get the ship to do stunts, land, take off, etc... but when it come time to dodge fire, react quickly, etc... it still your Dex score... at least that's what I've been working off. NOW we could let them use their WIS modifier everywhere you'd normaly use your DEX modifier, but that lets them use it for Reflex saves, and armor class (note that a Monk pilot would be getting their Dex and Wis bonus to their vehilce AC anyway) etc.
For the record, using the Wisdom score for piloting was not my idea, and I've yet to have it explained to me as to WHEN you get to do that. I know its supposed to be built into the vehilce, but what is the concept here? that it is a smart vehilce (computer controlled) so you plot courses instead of turning a stick? Is this an option we allow on all vehilces (even fighters?) or is it limited to larger vehilces? When building a vehilce do we want it to be a choice you make, or do you need to buy special components to let you pull it off?
Personaly the only 3 times I had it in my mind that it would make sense is 1: the vehilce has advanced automated controls, and you plot courses. 2: you literaly plug your brain into the computer (animie style) and pilot it by thought instead of by stick (also works for psionic controls!) 3: the vehilce is alive and can pilot itself... your jsut kinda half-piloting it. (this is still being worked out as to it's possibilities or not possible)
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
I haven't read this whole thread; I'll need to read your vessel construction rules before I can make sense of it, and I want to get my character creation updates finished before I do that. However, just skimming through, there are a couple of things that stuck out which I can comment on right now.
1) As I mentioned in my comments on barsoomcore's piloting rules, vessel stat blocks ought to include a line stating whether they're capable of water landings, ground landings, both, or neither.
2) Hardness should not scale by size. A Colossal wooden object isn't any harder than a Medium-sized one, it just has more hit points. See p. 136 in the PHB for a clarification of the relationship between size and hit points.
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Originally posted by BlackJaw For the record, using the Wisdom score for piloting was not my idea, and I've yet to have it explained to me as to WHEN you get to do that. I know its supposed to be built into the vehilce, but what is the concept here? that it is a smart vehilce (computer controlled) so you plot courses instead of turning a stick? Is this an option we allow on all vehilces (even fighters?) or is it limited to larger vehilces?
3) Wis-based pilot checks are primarily used for three purposes: sailcraft, ballooncraft, and some large vessels (generally those of ocean-liner size and above). The reason Wis is used for these is that experience, good judgment, and being aware of your surroundings are more important in steering these kinds of vessels than good co-ordination and reflexes. It wasn't a clumsy pilot that steered the Titanic into an iceberg, it was an unobservant one.
I don't think that vessels which use Wisdom for piloting checks should also use it to modify AC and Reflex saves. However, I'm not sure Dex applies either. Frankly, it's just hard to imagine a star destroyer or a sky-galleon dodging attacks. If nothing else, I think that both the handling modifier and the turn modifier (which is based on maneuverability class) should be applied to AC and Reflex saves. What are your thoughts?
Wyvern
__________________ "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
- William Shakespeare, "Hamlet"
Originally posted by BlackJaw A vehilce's Dexterity score is the Pilot's score.
I disagree. A vehicle has NO Dexterity score. That is the defining characteristic of a vehicle. No Dex means it is unable to maneuver itself.
A vehicle has Strength because it can apply force. It may have Constitution because it may be healthy or not. It can have Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma because it can have a personality. But it cannot have Dexterity. It cannot turn or accelerate unless a pilot uses the controls. It is the pilot's skill that determines the maneuverability of the vessel.
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A vehicle's reflex save is the pilot's save minus the handling modifier (because it involves moving).
I'm not sure about this. I like it because it's simple (though I think you mean PLUS the handling modifier -- a better modifier should give a better save), but I'm not sure it's appropriate in all circumstances. My other instinct is to use the pilot's Piloting skill modifier, but that causes a problem with creatures -- should they get their Reflex Save or their Piloting modifier? I say we leave it as the pilot's Reflex Save plus the handling modifier.
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I'm currently toying with the idea that the vehilce's Wis and Cha scores are the pilot's score
I don't think that's necessary. A vehicle has its own Wisdom and Charisma scores and thus has its own Will saves and can make Charisma checks normally
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Encumbrance. Vehilce should have encumbrance for cargo... and it should probably be listed with cargo bays.
Wouldn't encumbrance just be a function of the cargo itself rather than the bay? Each component has a weight to it, right? So you just add up the weight of all components plus whatever cargo and crew are aboard and you're done. Compare that with STR (modified by size) and boo-yeah.
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Problem: when determining the cargo listing do we use light, medium, or heavey.
Sure, why not? Apply all the standard penalties. Max Dex won't matter. The Check Penalty applies to Piloting skill checks. Seems like it'll work just fine to me.
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Types: mostly vehicle will be of the Construct, Undead, and Plant types...
See my reply in the "Intelligent Ship" thread for my thoughts on all this. But basically I think that a vessel, whether a creature or a vehicle, can have vessel components. A vehicle has no Dexterity score and requires a pilot. A creature does not. Therefore, I'm thinking we now have TWO type modifiers, Vessels and Vehicles. But let's discuss this over there.
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Speed, Lift, Glide, manuvering, the works: So your idea for determing these improtant features is this(?):
1) a ship's minum speed is determined by comparing it's Primary Lift againts it's Size. If it's Primary Lift is equal to or greater then its HD, then it's min. speed is 0 (hover).
Right.
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2)If the ship's Primary Lift is not equal to or greater then its HD, then we subtract the Primary Lift & Speed Lift from the HD, take the resulting number and use that to determine the Min. Speed (but the speed must 30' or more). The vehilce's engines must meet that speed or better to fly in gravity.
Not sure that's the way it'll work. But the idea is that you subtract the Pure Lift from the number of Hit Dice, take the remainder and use it in some function with the Speed Lift to determine Minumum Speed. We need a function that, given a positive remainder, will always return a non-zero value for Minimum Speed.
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3) speed is determiend by adding up all Speed points & glide speed points and comparing it to a table.
Yep, sound good.
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4) Glide speed is determiend by adding up all glide speed points (which come from components that do not need power) and comparing that to the same table above.
Glide Speed and Maneuverability are qualities of components. A wing, for example, supplies Speed Lift, Glide Speed, Maneuverability and Glide Maneuverability values. An engine provides Strength, Speed and Maneuverability values.
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5) Manuveribilty and Glide man. work in the same way. The table lists clumsy as the worst option for a vehicle/vessel.
Right. We are talking about vessels here, to be specific. Both vehicles and creatures.
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How do we do Vehilce STR scores?
I think components should include STR values just like Speed or Maneuverability. Total up the STR values of all components, work in size somehow, and we're done. There doesn't have to be a correlation between STR and Speed, right? So an engine may provide both, but a component like "Streamlined Design" or "Smooth Finish" may provide Speed without Strength.
Vessel melee weapons that don't rely on a vessel's Strength may include their own (like a grappling arm or a tractor beam), but that can be handled case-by-case in the weapon descriptions.
And Then...
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Wyvern mumbled: I don't think that vessels which use Wisdom for piloting checks should also use it to modify AC and Reflex saves. However, I'm not sure Dex applies either. Frankly, it's just hard to imagine a star destroyer or a sky-galleon dodging attacks. If nothing else, I think that both the handling modifier and the turn modifier (which is based on maneuverability class) should be applied to AC and Reflex saves. What are your thoughts?
See? If we say vehicles don't have Dexterity then this whole problem goes away. They don't apply any Dexterity modifier to AC or Reflex Saves because they don't have any. We don't care if they're piloted via Wisdom or Dexterity for these purposes. I'm not sure they should get Handling and Turn modifiers applied to AC -- then creatures should, too, and that means we have to change, for example, the Griffin as written. It now gets a Turn modifier (for its Maneuverability Class) applied to its AC while flying. I don't think that's right.
Now creatures get a Dex modifier to AC but of course they do. They have a Dexterity.
If a pilot wants to improve her vehicle's AC she can perform a Complex Stunt. That's why it's there -- to allow Piloting expertise to apply to AC. But if the pilot's not making a particular effort to avoid attacks or make her vehicle hard to target then the vehicle doesn't get any bonus to AC.
See? If we say vehicles don't have Dexterity then this whole problem goes away. They don't apply any Dexterity modifier to AC or Reflex Saves because they don't have any. We don't care if they're piloted via Wisdom or Dexterity for these purposes. I'm not sure they should get Handling and Turn modifiers applied to AC -- then creatures should, too, and that means we have to change, for example, the Griffin as written. It now gets a Turn modifier (for its Maneuverability Class) applied to its AC while flying. I don't think that's right.
Now creatures get a Dex modifier to AC but of course they do. They have a Dexterity.
If a pilot wants to improve her vehicle's AC she can perform a Complex Stunt. That's why it's there -- to allow Piloting expertise to apply to AC. But if the pilot's not making a particular effort to avoid attacks or make her vehicle hard to target then the vehicle doesn't get any bonus to AC.
Huh? Huh? Am I being convincing here?
So we now say that a vehicle's armor class is just from natural, armor (as in metal plates bolted to the hull), and some special systems like sheild generators, deflection inducers, etc.
Does:
That means a pilot's Dex modifier is not used? (or did you mean that the Vehilce's dex score didn't apply ontop of the pilot's?)
That means a pilot's Dodge feat doesn't apply?
That means a Pilot's Inisght bonus doesn't apply?
That means a Monk/Pilot's Wisdom bonus doesn't apply?
Are you also saying that a vehilce's reflex save is not that of its pilot + Handling modifier?
What about Initative... the pilot's Init score uses the pilot's Dex.
I firmly support pilot reflex saves. I support at least SOME AC bonuses a pilot has affecting his vehilce (Insight, Dodge feats, and similar powers) but this does require that we draw up a list of what does and doesn't work. (that's ok, there is a list in the DMG of all named bonus types, and we can simply look through them).
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
Originally posted by BlackJaw Does:
That means a pilot's Dex modifier is not used? (or did you mean that the Vehilce's dex score didn't apply ontop of the pilot's?)
I mean the pilot's Dex modifier is not used. If the pilot wants to use their Dexterity and skill to increase their vehicle's AC they can perform a Complex Stunt.
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That means a pilot's Dodge feat doesn't apply?
I don't really see why it should. Why would the ability to duck a sword translate into the ability to turn a ship aside from a laser bolt?
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That means a Pilot's Inisght bonus doesn't apply?
What insight bonus? An insight bonus to the pilot's Piloting skill check would make a Complex Stunt easier. But an insight bonus to the pilot's AC? I don't see that it should apply to the vehicle's AC. But it's the best option presented here. MAYBE insight bonuses apply.
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That means a Monk/Pilot's Wisdom bonus doesn't apply?
Right. Why should it? It seems bizarre to me that it would.
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Are you also saying that a vehilce's reflex save is not that of its pilot + Handling modifier?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm not convinced that that is the best solution, but I don't have a better one. This has nothing to do with the issue of vehicle Dexterity, though.
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What about Initative... the pilot's Init score uses the pilot's Dex.
Sure. The pilot still has a Dex score, after all. They roll Initiative normally. The vehicle doesn't roll Initiative, the pilot does.
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I firmly support pilot reflex saves.
Explain to me how they apply to a balloon.
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I support at least SOME AC bonuses a pilot has affecting his vehilce (Insight, Dodge feats, and similar powers) but this does require that we draw up a list of what does and doesn't work. (that's ok, there is a list in the DMG of all named bonus types, and we can simply look through them).
Yeah, we could do that. That's got nothing to do with the pilot's Dexterity score. I think there could certainly be feats a pilot could take to improve her vehicle's AC.
Off the top of my head the Vehicle creation rules do not seem easy which is something that should be able to be done.
Some stuff not finished that I have worked on a little bit follows
VEHICLE TRAITS
Every vehicle has five basic traits:
* Durability (DUR)
* Maneuver (MNR)
* Aptitude (APT)
* Perception (PRN)
* Physique(PHY)
The Score of these traits ranges from 0 to infinity. A limit, if any, will be specified in the rules. The average vehicle ranges from 3 to 18. It is possible for a vehicle to have a score of "none". A score of "none" is not the same as a score of "0". A score of "none" means that the vehicle does not possess the ability at all. The modifier for a score of "none" is +0.
* DUR 0 means that the vehicle has been destroyed.
* MAN 0 means that the vehicle cannot move at all. It lies
Motionless, adrift, and helpless.
* APT 0 means that the vehicle can not compute, and is
malfunctioning, leaving it helpless.
*PER 0 means that the vehicle’s ability to perceive obstacles is 0
ft from itself, leaving open to attack
*PHY 0 means that the vehicle is beyond cosmetic repair, and its
value is diminished .
Keeping track of negative trait score points is never necessary. A Vehicles traits can not drop below 0.
Also you are missing vehicle Initiative for Vehicle combat.
And I think that we should assume that vehicles are all non living objects namely because there is a word for a living aerial ride " Mounts"
A Glder is not a mount, and a drake is not a Vehicle there I said it.
What I am thinking though is this have the Vehicle stats be similar to the Monster stats
With Initiative being figured by the MNR modifier, and such Design Foci as Improved Initiative (I.E the vehicular form of the Feat)
Also this would allow for the Vehicle Subtypes to be as such
In addition there are variations of these subtypes which are as folows.
* Submercible, Deep
* Aerial, Low
* Aerial. High
* Space, Deep
Submercible- means that the vehicle can function underwater, or in the thick gasses of a heavy atmosphere such as that of Jupiter. Vehicles with this type can exist underwater where as Aerial vehicles can not.
Deep Submercible - is an extention of the depth, or the amount of pressure a submercible vehicle can sustain before it implodes. Vehicles equiped to delve deaper into to an atmosphere such as Jupiter Gas Miners, or Dwarven Ironboats do not suffer the Durabilty troubles that vehicles with only the submercible subtype will.
Aerial - Vehicles with this subtype can fly within a certain hight from the ground depending on their size and power output.
Note that some vehicle sizes are just to big to be able to fly unless they are unique examples of their size category, or magical*
Low Altitude Vehicles with this subtype are usually weaker than those that can fly higher into the upper atmosphere, Biplanes, Triplanes, and Zepplins are good examples of this type of craft. Vehicles made mechanically in this subtype have a tendancy to stall out if they get higher than there max altitude
High Altitude Vehicles of this type are capable of reaching the upper reaches of an atmosphere, nearly breaching the fine line between being an aerial craft and a space craft. Spyplanes, early rockets, and modern weather bloons are good examples of these craft.
Space Vehicles of this type are capable of sustaining the extreme vacuum of space, where the temperature rises very high, and drops very low depending on the areas hit by solar rays. They are capable of some protection against radiation from solar flares. Examples of this are the Space station Mir, the Space Shuttles, and most of the vessels found in the pages of science fiction.
Deep space Vessels of this type are those that are able to support or suspend life through the long cold dark of deep space. Vessels such as Cryogenic century ships, and Generation vessels are good examples of this type of vehicle.
Intraspacial Vehicles with this subtype are capable of all types of atmospheric travel whether in the depths of a gas giant or in the long dark of deep space.
Old subtypes such as cold, fire, heat, electricity and the like should be shown rather in design foci, or in strait out SQ' s
Such as a Space vessel should probably have Cold, and Heat Resistance +20, but also it should have Radiation Resistance +20 also. (with twenty being an example.)
Originally posted by Sidran Off the top of my head the Vehicle creation rules do not seem easy which is something that should be able to be done.
Please indicate which bits you're having difficulty with. Ease of use is critical.
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Some stuff not finished that I have worked on a little bit follows
None of this stuff fits with anything already created -- that's five chapters' worth of material. Are you saying your ideas are so much better that we should throw out all the work we've done so far?
I don't think these ideas are that much better.
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VEHICLE TRAITS
Every vehicle has five basic traits:
* Durability (DUR)
* Maneuver (MNR)
* Aptitude (APT)
* Perception (PRN)
* Physique(PHY)
I thought the goal of this project was to create a set of aerospatial movement and combat rules to enable d20 GMs to incorporate flying/spacefaring vessels into their campaigns. I do not agree that this goal requires creating a whole new set of attributes. I'm very surprised to see this being presented.
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Also you are missing vehicle Initiative for Vehicle combat.
Vehicles don't roll Initiative. Why would they? Did you note in the post directly above yours that I wrote: The vehicle doesn't roll Initiative, the pilot does? Please, read before you post.
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And I think that we should assume that vehicles are all non living objects namely because there is a word for a living aerial ride " Mounts"
Incorrect. Please refer to earlier parts of this thread, the thread on Chapter2 and BlackJaw's thread on Intelligent vehicles.
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What I am thinking though is this have the Vehicle stats be similar to the Monster stats [/b]
Well right now we have vessel stats IDENTICAL to monster stats so how much more similar do you want?
Once again I have to ask -- have you read the existing material? Our current rules are intended to cover all these situations. Please point out how your suggestions are improvements to what we currently have.
And explain why we need these subtypes, please.
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Old subtypes such as cold, fire, heat, electricity and the like should be shown rather in design foci, or in strait out SQ' s
I thought you wanted things to be similar to monster stats so why change all this needlessly?
Look, I know it can be difficult to draw rules out of ongoing discussion threads so here's the basics of what's being proposed for vessel creation:
A Vessel type modifier can be applied to any creature type. The Vessel type modifier allows the vessel to acquire Vessel Components -- like mounted weapons, cargo holds, control systems, power systems, engines and so on. A list of these is provided, along with rules on how to apply them.
A Vehicle type modifier can be applied to any Aberration, Construct, Plant or Undead creature that also has the Vessel Type modifier. A vehicle has no Dexterity and cannot take a double move or a run action.
Under these ideas, a 747 is a Construct with both the Vessel and Vehicle type modifiers. A red dragon with a laser turret on its back is a Dragon with a Vessel type modifier.
There's still things to be worked out with these approaches but these fit with everything we've done so far and I believe (and I think Blackjaw and Wyvern do too, but I won't speak for them) that we can find clean and elegant solutions to the existing problems. I don't think this is needlessly complicated (as BlackJaw said, it can be like creating a 20th-level character, so some complexity is necessary. It's also very much like creating a brand new monster -- if you want to follow the rules it's complicated. It just is.
But replacing all the standard D&D ability stats? Why bother?
I do not think that a Vehicle say for instance a Flying bathtub should be "alive" is a space shuttle alive, or a biplane
I think that rules for living vehicles should be in here but I don't want as a DM to have every contraption that flies alive.
Tell me the rational behind this, and I will except it otherwise I am just to wierded out ( I will just go with T20, or Dragonstar)
I thought that the goal of this project was to create rules for using aerial, and spacial craft in our campaign vehicles such as Air ships, and Flying Galleons, or for the more Sci-fi ended Elven Starships or the like. Truth is as this has taken so long you have been beat out by the Aerial Adventures books, and the Dragonstar books, and T20, and Spelljammer D20 stuff. There is a massive amount of choice in what I as a DM can use.
As for Initiative, hrm I do not know but I feel that a Init should be the result of a group working together to get a ship to attack first rather than one lone man
After all in a "Dwarven Clockwork Dragon" there is the Pilot (captain), the Bosun, and the treadmill wing motivators,
All in all it is the sum of a crew that should make the Initiative in a round, and not just that of a pilot at the wheel.
The one exception being vehicles with only 1, or 2 stations.
As for my rules stuff that was mostly geared towards my D20 Universe, and why bother, well Does a Vehicle, a non sentinent being have a will, does it have intelligence, or brawn, stamina
No it has similar things AI, Structual strength, and durabilty, It has Scanners, and can be made "aware" of things such as incoming vessels, and unknown objects. But it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness.
Again I think we should assume that all vehicles are non living entities until the Player/ DM says hey this device has been awakened or is indeed a Wizardly Construct, or a living organism
I think that living vessels should be rare, or at least not the standard device. Don't want no goblins in my engine thank you kindly
Every vehicle has five basic traits:
* Durability (DUR)
* Maneuver (MNR)
* Aptitude (APT)
* Perception (PRN)
* Physique(PHY)
These traits are just new versions of Con, Dex, Wis, Int, Cha... (no strength?) I don't see making up new names for standard D&D ability scores making this an easier for people to use. Remember that we are tyring to make this a D&D/D20 project and not inventing our own semi-D&D game.
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Submercible- means that the vehicle can function underwater, or in the thick gasses of a heavy atmosphere such as that of Jupiter. Vehicles with this type can exist underwater where as Aerial vehicles can not.
Deep Submercible - is an extention of the depth, or the amount of pressure a submercible vehicle can sustain before it implodes. Vehicles equiped to delve deaper into to an atmosphere such as Jupiter Gas Miners, or Dwarven Ironboats do not suffer the Durabilty troubles that vehicles with only the submercible subtype will.
Your descriptors of vehicle types/subtypes are nice, but only flavor text. For making a vehicle, its important to know what determines the types.
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
You posted a reply just before I finished reading and writing my own, so here's another to your new post:
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I do not think that a Vehicle say for instance a Flying bathtub should be "alive" is a space shuttle alive, or a biplane
I think that rules for living vehicles should be in here but I don't want as a DM to have every contraption that flies alive.
We arn't saying that they are alive. Most vehicles are constructs. Constructs are not alive... they are objects. Most D&D games cover animated (not just magic, but machines like robots and vehicles) objects as constructs. Incase Barsoomcore's response above didn't tell you: He and I are currently in a debate about how to handle Living Vehicles... you just walked into the middle of it.
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Tell me the rational behind this, and I will except it otherwise I am just to wierded out ( I will just go with T20, or Dragonstar)
I thought that the goal of this project was to create rules for using aerial, and spacial craft in our campaign vehicles such as Air ships, and Flying Galleons, or for the more Sci-fi ended Elven Starships or the like. Truth is as this has taken so long you have been beat out by the Aerial Adventures books, and the Dragonstar books, and T20, and Spelljammer D20 stuff. There is a massive amount of choice in what I as a DM can use.
For the record I have all the dragon star books including the new "imperal equipment gd" and the Dungeon Mags that cover vehicles, that cover Spell Jammer, etc. Those are some uggly rules and are part of the reason why I'm working on this project at all. The Dungeon Mag articles are both closed content and are not avalible for anyone writing anything to use. More then that, they are uggly rule sets. The vehicle rules from dungeon (they had an article on JUST vehicles in general) requires a DM to keep track of the hit points for every 5' square/cube of a vehicle... that's nasty in game play... especialy when it goes into how one 5' square effects the squares near it. The Spelljammer article is fine if your running a game of large ships that float in space because they are just magic (period) and you never want anything resembling a dog fight. Essentialy its rules for how vehilces interact in space, but very little on vehicle VS vehilce combat... But that's what you expect from a short dungeon article.
Have you read any of the vehicle rules from (say Dragon Star or Starwars d20?) These are not great flight rules. They are clunky, and tacked on. The focus of those products was the setting, not the flight rules. Dragon star uses a system of keeping a distance measurement between one ship and all the other ships... no grids. its all done with skill checks and range bubbles etc. You want to build a ship? you take one of their stock crafts and add guns/etc to it until you run out of money. How does that effect CR? If I pit my players in space fighters againts Orcs in space fighters what is the CR? is it my players VS orcs regardless of the equipment difrences?
The Starwars system has been changed 3 times (or more) from when it was released. many people who play it have told me they hate the movement point system because it requires so many extra calculations IN COMBAT. with larger groups it becomes ugly. AND again your vehicle design is a stock ship + as much extra stuff you can afford.
Stock ships are fine in one setting, but if you want to make your own flight setting... well good luck trying to determine the stats for everything on your own with no guides. Also, with no limits as to space inside a vehicle, you start getting "bags of holding" vehicle desings, where massive engines, fuel tanks, and absurb amounts of weapons and systems all seem to fit on a single vehicle because enogh money was thrown at it. I'm working on a system for tweaking vessels more then that. A hull only holds so much stuff (engines, fuel/power cores, weapons, people, etc) and its a bit of a balencing act... but you can lean the balence toward spicific goals... speed, endurance, manuvering, handling, big guns, lots of smaller guns, cargo, or even make a flying "home base" location with brigs, churches, labs, etc.
If your even checking in on the project or working on rules of your own, I'm betting you arn't happy with the rules that are out there either.
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As for Initiative, hrm I do not know but I feel that a Init should be the result of a group working together to get a ship to attack first rather than one lone man
After all in a "Dwarven Clockwork Dragon" there is the Pilot (captain), the Bosun, and the treadmill wing motivators,
All in all it is the sum of a crew that should make the Initiative in a round, and not just that of a pilot at the wheel.
The one exception being vehicles with only 1, or 2 stations.
So instead of letting the pilot (who determines the movements of the vehicle) roll for a initative your going to give each vehicle a flat init modifer to represent the little guy in a treadmill, the bosun, and anyone else that keeps the vehilce working? Ok, how do you determine that modifier? average up all the init modifiers of everyone onboard? Take into acount who has what job? (wouldn't the little guy on the tread mill who can't see anyting just keep running all the time regardless of when the vehilce enters combat?) I'd argue that controlling the actions of a vehicle is an action that the pilot takes, and that determining when a pilot (or any NPC/PC) gets to take any actions is done through a Init check for that NPC/PC. THUS a vehicle has no Init score/modifer/etc. A pilot gets to pilot on his turn, and the abilities of he and his crew to move, manuver, and use their vehicle is determiend by that vehilce, but the WHEN (durring the theoretical 6 seconds where everything happens at the same time anyway) is done through normal Init meahtods.
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As for my rules stuff that was mostly geared towards my D20 Universe, and why bother, well Does a Vehicle, a non sentinent being have a will, does it have intelligence, or brawn, stamina
No it has similar things AI, Structual strength, and durabilty, It has Scanners, and can be made "aware" of things such as incoming vessels, and unknown objects. But it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness.
Does a zombie, skeleton, stone golem, etc have Inteligence, stamina or "sentinent" characteristics? Not really, but that's why "creatures" can have stats of "-" for things like Int, Con, etc. A Stone Golem "structual strength," "durability," and "it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness." It also uses creature stats. Also, does your Biplane have AI or scanners? not really, but would that require it to use completly new stat formating, terms, and rules?
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
Anyways: in response to Barsoomcore's last response to my questions (IE: before Sidran's first post)
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I mean the pilot's Dex modifier is not used [for AC.] If the pilot wants to use their Dexterity and skill to increase their vehicle's AC they can perform a Complex Stunt.
Ok, Dexterity and realted bonuses to AC do not aply to vehilces. fine. It makes sense for vehicles to generaly fly wihout ducking or weaving unless the pilot puts some effort into it. Because Dexterity (generaly) applies to Piloting skill checks, and that applies to the Stunt, A pilot with better Dexterity is still harder to hit this way.
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I don't really see why it[Dodge feat] should. Why would the ability to duck a sword translate into the ability to turn a ship aside from a laser bolt?
Because you can just as easily argue that the dodge feat is a character focusing his/her attention on one threat and actively attempting to avoid attacks from that source. Also; one of the goals from this project is for a fun playable set of rules to come out of it. Letting players use things their characters may already have, incluidng feats that seem aplicable, makes it more playable... on the other hand, the Dodge feat gives a dodge bonus to AC, and I'm not sure I wanted to allow all "dodge" bonuses to AC. hmm we need to look at this AC/Reflex save/Pilot's Dexterity thing a bit more.
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What insight bonus? An insight bonus to the pilot's Piloting skill check would make a Complex Stunt easier. But an insight bonus to the pilot's AC? I don't see that it should apply to the vehicle's AC. But it's the best option presented here. MAYBE insight bonuses apply.
Insight is a type of modifier. Example: True strike (the spell) gives an insight bonus to Attack. Off the top of my head I don't know what gives insight bonuses to AC, but I have seen it done, and I know that some players/DM make magic items that apply Insight bonuses to attacks, etc. I could have just as easily asked this question about other armor class modifiers. not all of them are armor sitting on a player/etc. I figure most don't apply to a vehicle via the pilot, But some might. Insight is a good example. A bad example would be so called unamed bonuses. Ug...
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Right. Why should it[monk's wis bonus to ac]? It seems bizarre to me that it would.
I was just thinking about the playability of difrent character classes as pilots. Before I was unde the impression that a Vehicle should use the pilot's dex modifier, and therefore the monk (who gets wisdom and dex) would get to add in wisdom as well. Your view (which I'm taking on now) is that Dex doesn't apply at all, so therefore the monk gets no bonus from wis either. That works fine.
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No, I'm not saying that. I'm not convinced that that is the best solution, but I don't have a better one. This has nothing to do with the issue of vehicle Dexterity, though.
This becomes basicaly the only thing left of a vehicle that is determiend by the pilot's score instead of set by the vehicle. Oh, and I've been thinking about this some more, and I feel that instead of the handling modifier (a measurement of how easy it is to fly the vehicle, not its abilty to manuver) we should possibly use it's "turn modifier" which comes directly from a vehicle's manuverability... I do see how this seems clunky though.
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Explain to me how they [pilot's reflex save modifier] apply to a balloon.
About your "balloon" refrence... are we talking about a normal hot air balloon... the kind with no propulsion system? The kind that you don't control the flight of but instead drift with the wind and can only manipulate vertical control? I'm not sure a balloon with no engine/sails & rigging/etc counts as a vessel. It doesn't have controlled flight. Now if you add on some propper sails, or propellers with rudders/etc then you get some sort of controled flight. Under that set of rules a pilots ability to react to special threat (reflex saves are for special attacks like guided missiles and dragon's breath) would seem to be his own reaction time (IE throwing on the breaks before you run over that deer in the road) and the vehicle's ability to be controlled (IE: the breaks working). Keep in mind that Reflex saves under D20 are a little odd as you don't actualy move out of the way of the effect. Also remember that many reflex saves are for half damage. This question is also realted to the question of if Character class powers (like thoe of the rogue) apply to their vehicles... can a mid-high level rogue take no damage isntead just half... and later on half damage even on a fail?
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Yeah, we could do that [AC from pilot feats/magic items etc lists]. That's got nothing to do with the pilot's Dexterity score. I think there could certainly be feats a pilot could take to improve her vehicle's AC
I think I'll branch this topic out into a new post along with pilot reflex saves. This thread is getting split up a lot.
__________________ --BlackJaw
"May the Orc spit in your Pie!"
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