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I am currently working on the Celirans, a quasi-reptilian humanoid race; I am considering the possibility of giving them a prehensile tail (like that of a chameleon, which helps in climbing and could support the entire body's weight for short amounts of time). My three questions are:
1) What would be the game advantages of such a tail, apart from climbing (fighting with it? but remember that it's behind the back; pick-pocketing with it would be interesting, though )?
2) Could it be a balanced ability for level-1 characters or would it incur ECLs?
3) How would Celiran clothes fit the fact that they have a tail? I thought about Sari/Kimono style, but doesmn't it get in the way of climbing trees (which the Celirans, atleast in their more primitive cultures, like to do)?
Last edited by Shades of Green; 28th September 2005 at 10:05 PM..
Well, the most obvious benefit I think would be a bonus to dexterity. Probably give a bonus to climbing, and the ability to take 10 even under duress. Definitely shouldn't be a problem to make it balanced against any of the other standard races.
As for clothes, depending on how the tail is you could poke a hole (if it were thin, like say a monkey or cat's tail) or you might have to have assless chaps if they're much thicker, as I'm assuming the case would be. Might even go with loin cloths or kilts or something. In any case, I'd say they'd require specially made armor.
As for clothes, depending on how the tail is you could poke a hole (if it were thin, like say a monkey or cat's tail) or you might have to have assless chaps if they're much thicker, as I'm assuming the case would be. Might even go with loin cloths or kilts or something. In any case, I'd say they'd require specially made armor.
They have a tail similar to that of chameleons, opposums and lesser monkeys (not very thick, but prehensile and helps in climbing/grabbing stuff), as opposed to that of an alligator/gecko/desert swift/lizard man (thick and balancing) or that of a rat (thin and helps in ground movement).
Last edited by Shades of Green; 1st June 2005 at 01:20 PM..
Maximum benefits I'd allow for an otherwise very weak race:
+4 to Balance, Swim and Climb.
+4 to all Grapple checks, and +4 to avoid being Tripped or Bullrushed.
+4 to Escape Artist checks when your tail could possibly help.
3rd Hand: Your tail counts as a Hand slot. It cannot weild a weapon or hold a shield, but it could hold a Wand, Rod or Wonderous Item, a Focus component (including a Divine Focus), or a Scroll. You may not put a Ring, Glove or Bracer on your tail (unless you take the Epic feat: Extra Item Slot).
For a penalty: armor costs +50%. Maybe no Fullplate for you at all.
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So, how about this for Celiran racial traits (I'll post the full racial description in a few days):
* +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength: Celirans are agile (and their prehensile tail adds to this nimbleness) but their slick, flexible bodies lack the physical prowess of other, stockier races.
* Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, Celirans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Celiran base speed is 30.
* Tree-dwelling: Celirans are built for treetop living, and have a prehensile tail to assit them in that; they recive a +4 Racial bonus to Climb and Tumble checks. They also treat these two skills as class skills regardless of their class.
* Natural Camoflage: +2 Racial bonus to Hide checks when against green or blue background (for example, in a dense forest) due to their greenish and scaley hide which tends to blend in such surreoundings.
* 3rd Hand: a Celiran's tail counts as a Hand slot. It cannot weild a weapon or hold a shield, but it could hold a Wand, Rod or Wonderous Item, a Focus component (including a Divine Focus), or a Scroll. A Celiran may not put a Ring, Glove or Bracer on her tail (unless she takes the Epic feat: Extra Item Slot).
* Tail Feint: A Celiran may add a +2 Racial bonus to her Bluff checks when (and only when) using her tail to pull off a combat feint.
* Armor Requirements: A Celiran's tail gets in the way of wearing standard armors; she must purchase Celiran-specific armor at 150% of it's base cost. Ofcourse, armorers in the many Celiran villages deep in the Renya Swamp sell such armor on it's standard cost, while other races' armor costs 150% of it's standard cost.
* Automatic Languages: "Common" and Ceran (a variant of Celiran).
* Bonus Languages: Draconic, Treeant, Goblin, Orcish, Old Dwarven, and Elven (each of the three variants is considered a seperate skill).
* Favored Class: Rouge. A multiclass Celiran's Rogue class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing.
Last edited by Shades of Green; 1st June 2005 at 07:38 PM..
* Tree-dwelling: Celirans are built for treetop living, and have a prehensile tail to assit them in that; they recive a +4 Racial bonus to Climb and Tumble checks and may take 10 in Climb and Tumble checks even under duress. They also treat these two skills as class skills regardless of their class.
This is the only problematic bit imho. You've just said, "Put one rank in Tumble and you can always succeed on a Tumble check" (assuming you don't have a penalty).
I wouldn't give a bonus to Tumble at all, nor would I make any skills class skills regardless of class.
I hope that they are balanced enough.
Also, I chose "Rogue" as the Celirans' favorite class because the less civilized ones have Rogues instead of most of their warriors/hunters and the more civilized ones have rouges as their merchants. And, ofcourse, a Celiran thief is not a rare sight, either, especially because their high dexterity and their great climbing abilities.
Last edited by Shades of Green; 1st June 2005 at 07:38 PM..
Personally I'd make them small (imho makes more sense for a tree-tops race) and remove any reference to tumble. I'd also give them a straight Climb speed 30 and Ground speed 20
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I like the idea of them being small, like weaker, more agile cousins to the lizardfolk (as closely related as chimps and spider monkeys or something).
I also agree with tonguez idea to remove tumble completely and give thme a base climb speed.
I think it'd be cool (since you keep talking about a chameleons tail) if the natural camoflauge applied everywhere because they blend in. If they were small this would give them +6 to hide, making them very good rogues.
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Small seems better, I agree. Climb 30/Speed 20 seems to fit from the descriptions of the race, as well.
Climb skill I can see--but why is Tumble a class skill for them? Do you see them as being total acrobats, just because they have a tail? A better skill to give a bonus to and take as a class skill would be Balance, imo. Then you could let them take-10-under-duress in both Balance and Climb without it being too powerful, as well. Tumble is just too useful to play around with, really.
I would also recommend giving them the option of taking the Epic feat Extra Slot as a regular feat--limited to Ring or Bracer only. Glove doesn't really work, when you think about it. And maybe other benefits, like allowing them to 'cling to a wall' with their tail and have both hands free...
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I agree somewhat with Nifft and others on some of the traits, but pointedly disagree on some other things....... The prehensile tail should not help with swimming; it's not like an eel's tail, nor a fish's, nor a lizard's; it lacks the width and strength to help a humanoid swim better, far as I can imagine it. Nor should the tail grant a Dexterity bonus; it doesn't make them all-around better coordinated, poised, flexible, reflexive, or the like. I'd say the tail would grant +2 on Balance, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks when the tail is useable, +4 on Climb checks when the tail is useable, and +2 on grapple checks when the tail is useable; I don't see any way that a tail like that could help significantly against bull rushes or trips, and it probably isn't as good as a lizardfolk's tail for balance, nor is it significantly strong enough or huge enough to make the character effectively one size larger for grappling (which is what a +4 on grapple checks would be like).
I don't think they should have a climb speed, but I'm not sure yet if it's truly inappropriate for them. Having a tail should not prevent the character from wearing armor, nor should it make armor 50% more expensive just to put a hole over the tail area. Even full plate shouldn't be a problem. I'd say add +10% to the cost of clothes and armor for the tailed race, in order to have a hole made around the tail area; the tail won't be armored, but no matter, it's probably agile enough and quick enough to avoid getting hit, and you can't target specific body parts normally in D&D anyway so it doesn't matter.
A prehensile tail would not incur an ECL+ in and of itself, it depends on what other abilities they have, and how they can use their tail. Chiefly, the tail could act as a third arm and hand, using weapons, shields, wands, scrolls, tools, and so on. If strong enough to hold the character's weight, it should probably grant them a tail slap natural attack appropriate to their size; probably 1d4 damage if Medium, 1d3 if Small, applying one-and-a-half times their Strength bonus to damage, if any, since it's their only natural attack (as per the MM). Being able to do anything a hand could is pretty significant though, so you may consider disallowing its use of weapons and shields, saying that it can't grip and hold up such devices well enough to strike or block with. A tail doesn't have fingers after all, so there are a few things it couldn't do like a hand. Couldn't play most instruments (besides drums), but could hold them at least, for instance.
Now then, evaluating the racial stats you've posted...... In my opinion, what you have posted at the moment is appropriate enough for a race with no Level Adjustment, in terms of usefulness, but it is on the stronger side of LA +0. As-is they make much better rogues than Halflings and Elves do, and I don't really agree with some of their stats, though they are more or less balanced as-is. Also, you misspelled Treant and Rogue near the end. I'd modify 'em a bit like this:
Celiran
* +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength
* Medium-sized
* Humanoid (Celiran)
* Celiran base speed is 30 feet
* Prehensile Tail: A celiran's tail can be used for almost anything that an arm and hand could be used for, with the following exceptions. The tail's lack of fingers, combined with its slightly lesser coordination than a true hand, and its lack of a true arm's bony support renders the tail less than adequate for certain tasks. It cannot use a weapon or shield, though it can hold one such item idly and uselessly. The tail cannot perform the somatic components for spells or other abilities. It cannot play any instruments that require the use of more than one finger (the tail can effectively hold something and simultaneously function as one finger, for purposes of manipulation), nor can it use tools that require multiple fingers. A celiran's tail does not count as a magic item slot for shoulder, arm, hand, or finger items, with the exception that the Extra Item Slot epic feat can be applied to it as such.
* Tail Slap: Celirans may use their tail as a natural weapon, dealing 1d4 damage with a tail slap natural attack. As their only natural weapon, it applies 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus to damage, if any. As with other natural weapons, it threatens a critical hit on a roll of natural 20, and deals double damage on a critical hit. Celirans are, naturally, proficient in their tail slap. This tail slap may be used alone, or may be used instead as a secondary attack during a full-attack action. In the latter case, it suffers a -5 penalty on the attack roll and applies only 1/2 the celiran's Strength bonus to damage, if any.
* +2 racial bonus on Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble skill checks, as well as on grapple checks, when using their tail to help with the task
* +2 racial bonus Sleight of Hand checks when able to use their tail, whether it is to help with the task or when using the tail exclusively
* +2 racial bonus on Climb checks, increasing to +4 when using their tail to help
* Tree-Dwelling: Celirans gain Climb as a bonus class skill with all classes they take, and they can always take 10 on Climb checks, even under duress
* Natural Camouflage: Celirans gain a +2 racial bonus on Hide checks in green or blue surroundings, due to the coloration of their scales
* Tail Accomodation: A celiran needs to wear armor or clothes that accomodate their tail, as it can't fit in typical clothes made for other humanoids their size. Celirans must spend 10% more on armor and clothes when buying or trading for such goods not tailor-made to fit celirans in the first place. This assumes that the armor or clothing is made to allow the tail's freedom of movement while still covering it partially or fully, but a hole can be cut in clothes and cloth-like armor (padded, leather, studded leather, hide, or the like) at no extra cost instead. Harder armors, such as those incorporating more metal than studded leather does, cannot have such a hole cut, and must instead be modified by an armor smith with a forge and tools to accomodate a hole, labor that costs 5% of the armor's value and takes 1 hour. It takes a day of such work, costing 10% of the armor's value, to make armor that protects the tail and suitably fits a celiran, without impeding use of the tail any moreso than the armor check penalty already does. This 10% cost increase applies even when the armor is made for celirans in the first place, if made to protect the tail too. However, there is no game penalty for leaving the tail unprotected.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Ceran.
* Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven (all three variants count as separate languages), Goblin, Old Dwarven, Orcish, Treant.
* Favored Class: Rogue.
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Arkhandus, your "Tail Slap" does more damage than other unarmed attacks, is "two-handed" for strength bonus, and doesnt do non-lethal damage? Its more lethal than a heavy shield bash.
Updated Stats:
* +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength: Celirans are agile and naturally adept at tasks that require manual dexterity, but their slick, flexible bodies lack the physical prowess of other, stockier races.
* Small-size: As small-sized creatures, Celirans gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but they must use smaller weapons than humans use and their lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of Medium-size characters.
* Celiran base speed is 20.
* Tree-Dwelling: Celirans gain a +6 Racial bonus to Climb and Balance, and they can always take 10 on Climb and Balance checks, even under duress. They also recieve a +2 Racial bonus to Jump, but may not take 10 with it when under duress.
* Prehensile Tail: A celiran's tail can be used for almost anything that an arm and hand could be used for, with the following exceptions. The tail's lack of fingers, combined with its slightly lesser coordination than a true hand, and its lack of a true arm's bony support renders the tail less than adequate for certain tasks. It cannot use a weapon or shield, though it can hold one such item idly and uselessly. The tail cannot perform the somatic components for spells or other abilities. It cannot play any instruments that require the use of more than one finger (the tail can effectively hold something and simultaneously function as one finger, for purposes of manipulation), nor can it use tools that require multiple fingers. A Celiran's tail does not count as a magic item slot for shoulder, arm, hand, or finger items, with the exception that the Extra Item Slot epic feat can be applied to it as such. It does count, ofcourse, as a Tail slot for various Celiran (and Lizardmen) specific magical items.
* Tail Feint: A Celiran may add a +2 Racial bonus to her Bluff checks when (and only when) using her tail to pull off a combat feint.
* Tail Accomodation: A celiran needs to wear armor or clothes that accomodate their tail, as it can't fit in typical clothes made for other humanoids their size. Celirans must spend 10% more on armor and clothes when buying or trading for such goods not tailor-made to fit Celirans in the first place. This assumes that the armor or clothing is made to allow the tail's freedom of movement while still covering it partially or fully. It takes a day of an armorer's work, costing 10% of the armor's value, to make armor that protects the tail and suitably fits a celiran, without impeding use of the tail any moreso than the armor check penalty already does. This 10% cost increase applies even when the armor is made for celirans in the first place.
* Automatic Languages: "Common" and Ceran (the modern dialect of Celiran).
* Bonus Languages: Draconic, Treant, Goblin, Orcish, Old Dwarven, and Elven (each of the three variants is considered a seperate skill).
* Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass Celiran's Rogue class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing.
By the way, is "Sleight of Hand" from 3.5E? I recall my 3.0E book using Pickpocket instead. And which book is the "Extra Item Slot epic feat"? Epic Level sourcebook (or whatver it's called, I don't remember the name very clearly)?
EDIT: I'm also thinking about replacing the Rogue favored class with Ranger, both natural and urban (for both I'm looking for inspiration in these forums). Another possibility is a variant of the Druid class who worships the One Mother/Great Mother/Tree Mother (name varies with geographical region), a quasi-monotheistic goddess of nature, death, rebirth and fertility. The One Mother has several aspects which could be worshipped seperately (and treated as different goddesses, even though they are very closely related): the Green Mother (usually called just "The One Mother"), a Neutral Good goddess of nature, life, fertility and agriculture; the Dark Mother (or Dark Womb or Dark Moon, depending on cult), a Neutral Evil goddess of death, predators and erosion (and rot); Mother Swamp (or Mother Tree), a True Neutral goddess of nature and the cycle of life-death-rebirth; and the Wild One, a Chaotic Neutral goddess of wilderness, ferality, love and war (who somewhat tends towards evil; my concept of her is based on Anat, the ancient Cnaanite goddess of love and war, which was described as "bathing in blood up to her waist").
EDIT #2: My current physical concept of the Celirans is that of Humanoids with both Mammal and Reptilian qualities. Like primitive mammals, they lay eggs and then breast-feed the hatchlings; they also have warm blood; however, they also have lizard-style tails, scales and claws - which aren't much use for combat but are great for climbing/manipulating objects. They walk upright with a very slight bend forward, and could fold their tail (like cameleons do) or wrap it around their bodies if they want to. Their head is relatively Human-like, though they have large yellow eyes with slit pupils and nictating membranes, and longer than usual tounges. They have thick, oily dark hair on thier heads which looks more as a later evolution of their scales than as the remnants of body fur.
Last edited by Shades of Green; 2nd June 2005 at 11:04 PM..
This is the only problematic bit imho. You've just said, "Put one rank in Tumble and you can always succeed on a Tumble check" (assuming you don't have a penalty).
I wouldn't give a bonus to Tumble at all, nor would I make any skills class skills regardless of class.
YMMV, of course.
Maybe you can make the bonus to jumping instead of tumbling. The tail helps maintain balance (not so much for gaining distance as staying on target), and it's not unheard of for tree dwelling races to do more than their fair share of jumping (Branch to branch and all that).
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Last edited by Storyteller01; 2nd June 2005 at 08:15 PM..
![Celirans [Was: prehensile tails and PC races]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/iconimages/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/celirans-prehensile-tails-pc-races_ltr.gif)
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