"Prestige Caster" -Casters as Prestige Classes

[Sound of Azure]

After a conversation with a gaming buddy over the weekend, I got to thinking (Dangerous, huh? ).

As I'm going for a lower magic feel, without removing too much magic I got to thinking about the rationale for magic in my world. In the core rules, magic seems to be a thing of training, excepting the sorcerer.

Assuming I completely remove the sorcerer from the equation, is it viable to make Bards, Clerics, Druids, and Wizards prestige classes? For Wizards, it might require study and focus (Spellcraft and Knowledge (acrana), plus a feat. For Clerics, they may need to show true devotion, religious knowledge, and follow the dogma of their church. For Druids, it may be necessary to connect primally to nature, eschew aspects of the "modern" world, or somesuch.

Does anyone have any interesting ideas on prerequisites, or on how the abilities would be gained? If you gain the Prestige Caster class at 6th level and follow the normal progression of Spell Levels, you get a maximum of 8th level spells. Or would it be better to tone it down further (say, to 6th level spells)? On the other hand, could the classes be entered at 4th level, granting 17 levels of advancement and gaining 9th level spells at 20th level?

Ideas? As always, much appreciated for your input.

I thought this would be interesting, particularly in the case of Clerics. People from many different backgrounds might enter religious organisations and bring different things. A fighter who discovers true faith might become a militant priest, while a scholar or thief might bring different things to their order. (In my conception so far, the Cleric and Druid Prestige classes do not add any Armour Proficiency)

[drexes]

The only thing I see is the ramifications. Just keep in mind that without some other type of bonus there will very little incentive to going into the PrC's. !st level magic missile or cure light wounds will be pretty weak by seventh level. At that point characters may well feel spellcasting is les sin thier best interest than say full plate. It would make an interesting dynamic but you'll have to do more than just delay spell progression otherwise it will be very unattractive to players.

For prereqs you could require the skills you mention plus the special prereq of finding a master to apprentice under, he might require a quest that relies more on intellect than on martial ability before he takes on a student. Then I would use a prereq of a certain amount of training time to reflect the new training that must be undertaken.

I think if you limit magic to sixth it will be even less attractive thus needing more "balancers".Maybe you could get rid of Spell Resistance. If magic is rare so too could the ability to resist it. This will also limit the number of casters in the world, it's harder to do so fewer people do it. That in turn leads to fewer magic items (making them more rare and more expensive) and fewer chances to come across spell books (which might make casters more possessive and less likely to sell or trade spells even at a vastly increased cost).

Low magic campaigns seem popular on these boards so you should get some good feedback on these boards.

Just my thoughts
Drexes

[Sound of Azure]

Mmm, you are quite right. Most of the assumtions of the campaign so far is that magic is rare, but not unknown.

Good point on spell power... it was why I (later) suggested a lower starting point for the Prestige Caster idea. Having no SR would be a good fit... I had not considered that. Thanks!

As far as magic items go, they are intended to be reduced (indeed, this is one reason I would like to develop this idea further). Also, the relative rarity of magic users makes them either more valuable, or more persecuted. It may also create more of a "brotherhood" aspect that reflects their difference... a caster may have different entry-level feats to reflect the group they want to enter, for instance.

As far as costs go, yes, I can see that happening. Presently I am toying with altering the costs of many things in my campaign (risky), with less available gold, but with less costs too (as magic items are rare and not assumed).

Thanks for your thoughts Drexes.

[Xereq]

You could have warrior spellcasters with bard spell progressions and then a prestige class that grants access to up to 9th level spells like the sublime chord, (or even the sublime chord itself) from Complete Arcane.
Judging form your races post you are going for an asiatic setting, you could give the spellwarrior d8 HD, armored casting, accees to some oriental adventures spells and even some kind of Ki powers like the ninja in complete adventurer. That way the players would have to choose betwixt higher level Ki powers and high HD or High level spells. Makes for a more interesting characters. I do so love certain WotC supplements.

[reanjr]

I did this in one of my campaigns for wizards only (not druids, clerics, etc). Prereqs were something along the lines of:

5 ranks Craft (alchemy)
5 ranks Spellcraft
5 ranks Use Magic Device

The design consideration was that someone who wanted to become a wizard quickly could take a couple levels of Expert to get in at 3rd level, or have to wait till 4th+ if they tried to do it any other way.

In that campaign I removed spellcasting from Rangers, Paladins, and Bards, and removed the sorcerer class.

Anyway, Bards received increasingly powerful Bardic Music abilities that they could customize (inspired by a Dragon article), while Rangers and Paladins used the variants from Heroes of Battle (if I'm not mistaken).

Wizard was a 5 level prestige class

    BAB  For  Ref  Wil  Special
1   +0   +0   +0   +2   Summon familiar, bonus feat
2   +1   +0   +0   +3   
3   +1   +1   +1   +3   Bonus feat
4   +2   +1   +1   +4   
5   +2   +1   +1   +4   Bonus feat

Then there were specialist wizard classes such as Necromancer, Diobolist, War Wizard, Mage that each required 2nd level spells as entrance and some additional skills.

Necromancer and Diobolist were both sort of "pet" classes (undead and fiends, respectively). War wizard got all sorts of abilities to cast and fight in combat (no arcane spell failure with this system). Mage had best spell selection and great metamagic abilities.

They were all more specialized - but more powerful - variants on the traditional wizard.

[Spatzimaus]

As I've mentioned in a few other threads, my friends and I whipped up a homebrew where all magic was found in three "Advanced Classes". These were Prestige Classes whose only requirements are a single Feat, so you could take them at level 2, and whose abilities were somewhat based on the class you had been in before entering them.

Anyway, it worked pretty well. The things we learned from the experience:
1> You really, really need to make "caster level" count things other than just the caster class levels. In our case, we added two casting skills (Focus and Manifestation); Focus replaced Caster Level in spell effects, and Manifestation replaced it for caster level checks (like when trying to penetrate SR), and Manifestation also replaced your normal ranged attack bonus (BAB+DEX) on any spells requiring an attack roll. There have been plenty of other suggestions.

2> As others have mentioned, by effectively forcing casters to take a couple nonmagical levels at first, low-end damage spells just won't pack much punch. In our case this wasn't an issue, because we had reworked how metamagic works into X/day abilities, so lacking high-level slots wouldn't prevent you from metamagicking the level 1 stuff. But in your case, it'd mean that a Ftr6 who decides to become a Cleric will still act like a Fighter in every way that matters until he's got quite a few more levels.

3> If you keep the armor/weapon restrictions the various casters have, you're penalizing players a bit more than necessary, by forcing them to pick a class with the right weapons/armor at level 1.

[reanjr]

Originally Posted by Spatzimaus

These were Prestige Classes whose only requirements are a single Feat, so you could take them at level 2

Actually, humans could technically take it at level 1.

[Spatzimaus]

Originally Posted by reanjr

Actually, humans could technically take it at level 1.

And everyone gets a Feat at level 1, and some of the other races in the campaign had these bonus Feats specifically. It's hardly limited to Humans. Since "Select Feats" comes after "Select Class" in the level-up steps, we just explicitly said that you couldn't take one at level 1. Besides, if it gives a number of skill points per level equal to that of your previous class, how exactly would that work without a previous class?

[Sound of Azure]

Wow, look at all the sudden attention!

Xereq
Cool suggestion! I think I'll have to file that away for a campaign further in the future. Yeah, I like CAdv too!

Reanjr

Ah, so it's like a class for training toward further specialisation. Cool concept. At present, I'd been going with fully seperate classes for my spirit magic, but I can see them as different facets of the same base. Cool.
Sub in Knowledge (Spirits) for (arcana), and I'm go!

Spatzimaus
I'm aiming to delay spellcasting a bit further than level 2 (even if the first caster level is at level 4, as suggested by Reanjr), but thanks for sharing!
1) A very good point. I'll have a play around with the two casting skills and see how it goes. These would be added as prerequisites to the prestige caster classes (5 ranks). Use Magic Device would not be used as a requirement in this case. Not too sure about using a skill as replacement for BAB... (then again, with Telekinesis, you use caster level... hmmm)
2) That's more or less the aim, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to gimp them too much.
3) Are you referring to Arcane Spell Failure here? Or perhaps the Druid restriction on armour?

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If I go with the "Prestige Caster" idea, it'll have the advantage of introducing the mythology and mystique of the custom casting classes (I have Spirit Shamans and Witchdoctors at present), and their place in my campaign as it progresses. While I could do that from level 1, having the character "earn" their respected position could be very rewarding.

[Land Outcast]

I just LOVE the idea (but my high-magic loving group wouldn't touch it with a 11-ft. pole)

What to do for them not to lose power that drastically? simple:
6th level Fighter
Next level he can either go Ftr 6/Wiz 1 or Ftr 5/Wiz 2

and the go
4/4
3/6
2/8
1/10
0/12

So at 12th level, those who sacrificed their way to get up there would finally be really powerful individuals in the world.

Note that spent skillpoint would remain spent, as would do feats based on HD (as normal, if you no longer provide the prerequisites for a feat, you can't use it).
I just think it's kind of neat...

[Sound of Azure]

Land Outcast

After absorbing your post a little, I'm interested in how your system pans out in play.
I have a few questions:

1) What happens to the bonus feats from Fighter levels (you mention the hit die based feats, but not these)? When Fighter levels drop below 4, is the character no longer able take weapon specialisation?

2) How about class features from other classes? Do they suddenly forget how to sneak attack, uncannily dodge, or lay on hands?

Or are these things part of the sacrifice? Not intended as a criticism, I just think it needs more explanation, as the idea fascinates me.

[Land Outcast]

Heh, no offense taken!

In fact I was wondering the same thing... What do you think?

asap as I can post extensively I'll do so...

[Sound of Azure]

Well, I don't think I could use it as it stands alongside the ideas above, but certainly it is a good adjunct to the PHBII retraining rules.

It's a good suggestion, as I am wary of reducing spellcasting to very low power, nor make it too unattractive to players (as I have a dedicated player of wizards in my group, and his apprentice (heh) ).

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The idea is that magic is powerful! These people deal with spirits on a daily basis, live strange lives, and are supposed to be respected and/or feared by the general populance. And... it takes training. PCs in my game start off as relative neophytes, so I'm aiming to have that respect and important position earned. Wizards essentially being "wise folk", is a staple of legend and fiction, something I'd really like to capture.

Hopefully something I can capture.

On a side note, was there a d20 Modern advanced class that cast magic? I seem to recall hearing something about that somewhere. Perhaps in Urban Arcana? (No one I know has the books, though)

[EricNoah]

I love the idea of ministers who are simply Experts that have focused on Knowledge: Religion and Profession: Minister and so forth, and then can be ushered into the higher calling of a spellcasting priest. Same deal with Experts who have studied Arcana, Spellcraft, Alchemy, The Planes, languages, etc. and then can start casting arcane spells. I don't know how to balance that with the non-spellcasting classes, though.

[Sound of Azure]

Yeah, absolutely Eric

I have a friend who recently entered a nunnery, where she'll undergo several years of training to become a sister in her chosen order. It's a hard path, it woud seem.

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It is going to be hard to balance, but I think I'll go with a faster progression of spellcasting than usual.