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I discussed my stat-gen method over in the 4e forum, and it got some curious looks. I thought I'd throw the complete thing up here.
The Why
I do not like the dump-statting and repetitive build habits that point gen permits, and I also think it's niggly and time consuming. Thus, I strongly prefer rolling to point buy of any sort.
If I do roll, I like the matrix method or a method where you allocate dice to different stats (by player choice or by table according to race/class) and THEN roll and keep what you get.
But I find that rolling can lead to too high a variance. I find that rolling methods need a little conditioning to keep the spread of player power small, conditioning methods that can get a bit complicated.
Thus, I came up with this system. I had toyed with some systems like this for a while, but getting my games ready for GenCon, it all crystallized. I was prepping a Spycraft game (which had a point gen system) and a D20 Mars game (which uses a highly variant diced stat variant.) Both of these had basic system that would produce a baseline average of 13.5 if the character stats.
I came up with a little system that tried to live up to the dual goals of variety and PC equivalence by using cards. Thus I present to you...
Psion's D20 System Game Card Generation Method
1) Get a deck of standard playing cards. Take the 4-9 cards of two suits out of the deck. This should give you 12 cards, 2 of each numbered 4-9.
2) Shuffle the deck. Deal them out in pairs. Flip them over and total the pairs. This gives you 6 numbers that can range from 8 to 18.
(If you are happy with this, just allocate these scores to the 6 stats at the player's discretion. I, however, was shooting for a slightly higher average to match the assumptions of Spycraft 2.0 and D20 Mars, and I wanted to avoid 8's, so I added this step.)
3) Sort the pairs from highest to lowest. Add 1 to the 2nd, 4th, and 6th highest numbers. Allocate statistics to ability scores to taste.
Note:
In Spycraft, to compensate for the fact that some players have more odd scores than others, I allow players to subtract 1 from two odd scores in exchange for 1 bonus feat, similar to Spycraft's Modular campaign quality.
In D20 Mars, you get more frequent attribute boosts than in standard D20 games, so odd scores are less of a "sunk cost."
Example:
The cards are shuffled and dealt, resulting in these pairs...
The scores are ordered, and 1 is added to the 2nd, 4th, and 6th highest
16
14 + 1 = 15
14
13 + 1 = 14
11
10 + 1 = 11
Resulting in
16
15
14
14
11
11
Comments on method
Having been using this for a bit, I have observed a few properties that differ here from random dice rolling.
Obviously, by intent, the spread between PC power is much less than random, but unlike point-buy, you don't see pattern builds and a flurry of ugly fighters and you don't see the big point cost hit for higher stats.
While dealing the cards to make scores, it's psychologically a different experience than rolling. If you roll a crappy score using a dice method, there's the definite feeling that you have been set back, because you can't expect the rest of your scores to make up for it. When using the card method, you deal out some low cards, you know a good score is coming, because those cards are out of the deck.
The main randomization between characters is that some characters will have higher peak stats than others. But that's okay by me. I find forcing a spate of hyper-optimized characters is detrimental to character variety. By giving the player a higher score, you force them to consider credible sidelines. It sort of adds some variety to character design.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Wow...I'm speechless. Oh, wait, no I just had something caught in my throat
I can honestly say that this is the first "point buy--roll" compromise that I like. It has the excitement of randomness, but the 100% fairness of point buy. Props, dude.
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Hunh. That's pretty cool. I gotta say, I like it. ABout the only change I'd make would be adding an ace to the mix, and having it be a "wild card" that is either a 1 or an 11 - if the attribute is over 18, it's a 1, if it's not, it's an 11. Or something like that. Because I like crazy stuff like that.
But that's more personal preference. I really like how you set this up.
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Not bad, Psion. You increase the odds that you get either an 8 or an 18 versus dice rolling, but decrease the odds of getting two of either to nil. Sounds good, hehehe...
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Well as the Dragon method has been mentioned I have to say that your system is much much simpler. (and probably achieves similar results)
I also like the results much better then point buy. I just tried it a couple of times.
I may even try it in a campaign one day. There's just something about dice rolling though . . .
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__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Psion, I just want to let you know that I've mentioned this method on other boards and have gotten some very excited feedback about it. Did you think of this yourself? I don't say this often, but I am truly impressed.
__________________ Proud gamer of Sullivan, New York.
Death is not the end, but yet another journey--one that we all must take. The gray rain curtain of this world parts, everything fades to silver glass and then you see it--the white shore and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
--Everything that I'd like to believe about the afterlife.
This was so awesome I made a spreadsheet that does it automatically.
Directions:
(Note: Auto-filter should already be turned on, but if not go to Data-->Filter-->Auto-Filter to turn it on.)
1. Go to Sheet 1. Go to the "Deal!" column & use the pull-down AutoFilter menu to select "Sort Descending."
2. Go to Sheet 2. Go to the "Arrange High to Low" column & use the pull-down AutoFilter menu to select "Sort Descending."
3. Go to Sheet 3. Copy & paste the results into your Notepad/Wordpad/Word chargen notes.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
This was so awesome I made a spreadsheet that does it automatically.
Directions:
(Note: Auto-filter should already be turned on, but if not go to Data-->Filter-->Auto-Filter to turn it on.)
1. Go to Sheet 1. Go to the "Deal!" column & use the pull-down AutoFilter menu to select "Sort Descending."
2. Go to Sheet 2. Go to the "Arrange High to Low" column & use the pull-down AutoFilter menu to select "Sort Descending."
3. Go to Sheet 3. Copy & paste the results into your Notepad/Wordpad/Word chargen notes.
Heh... would you be surprised to know I already do this? (Or something like it... I didn't know the autofilter did sort; I just hit the sort button.)
Thanks. Incidentally, I did post an update of this method (with one little tweak) in my blog today:
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Haven't read this thread yet, so excuse the YEAR LATE reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tequila Sunrise
Psion, I just want to let you know that I've mentioned this method on other boards and have gotten some very excited feedback about it. Did you think of this yourself? I don't say this often, but I am truly impressed.
I had heard of other folks dealing cards, but this particular iteration was cobbled together by my after some dissatisfaction during some prep for my GenCon games 2 years ago.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
How the heck do you think I found this thread? I don't even play 3E ...
I didn't even read the OP, I just responded here so more people could benefit. Whatever change you made is in there as the XCL sheet is based on your blog entry.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
How the heck do you think I found this thread? I don't even play 3E ...
I didn't even read the OP, I just responded here so more people could benefit. Whatever change you made is in there as the XCL sheet is based on your blog entry.
Gotcha.
The only real change was the tweak for folks who wanted non-random generation using the cards.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
Hey I really like this. I felt the same way about dice being to swingy and point buy being too optimized.
Somehow while I was reading this I came up with this plan, though I'm not sure if I'll ever actually use it:
Each player builds a character using these rules, except that they are not allowed to rearrange the ability scores (so for 4E, the first pair is Str, second is Con, etc.) Then, the players are allowed to trade the characters' scores they 'rolled up' and build from there.
~
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There is a definite element of genius in your method. I commend you.
While I must confess the idea that you artificially prevent the possibility of low scores from occurring does not appeal to me--after all, the occasional low score can be an interesting aspect for a character--I believe the notion that there is some element of randomness while still keeping a certain sense of balance in the available cards is akin to utter brilliance.
Were I to implement your method, and I believe I may have to now that I have seen it, I would have to make a modification. Some testing would be necessary to see how it works out, but something like this. Take the Ace through 6 cards all out of the deck. Draw four cards for each score and remove the lowest card. By my calculations the average score would be 12.5 with only marginal differences in net modifiers between players. For example you could have the following draws:
Berandor once posted a card-based creation method as well, I think that is a bit closer to what you just posted, airwalkrr. It also had an option to change the resulting stats slightly, after the card-dealing.
What I definitely like about such methods is the low variance, as Psion also said initially, without removing the random part (as PB does), which is the biggest downside of the standard rolling method of 4d6 drop lowest.
Myself, I've been using various variations of my own low-mid PB + some random increases method (i.e. PB 28 and then roll 4d6 and add +1 to STR for every 1, +1 to DEX for every 2, and so on; points that would move a stat over 18 must be redistributed, of course), which also aims to reduce variance and works very well so far.
But cards are definitely a nice way to do this, because you have the same "numbers" to put the stats together with for every player.
And it's also a fun way to "roll" stats!
Bye
Thanee
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