Which 11 feats would you pick for a 1st level character if ... ?

[Edena_of_Neith]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

I think it would feel like a "Monte Haul" game got enshrined in the rules.

Of course, it would be Monte Haul. That's a given.
It's only a What If. We'd never actually have a game with so many feats. It's just a theoretical What If ... that's why I denoted it as a 'candy store giveaway' type of situation.

It seems Celebrim has figured out how, using a few (very reasonable sounding) house feats, and using the skills rules, to create the same thing without a lot of feats. I just didn't clearly understand how he did it ... I asked him to expound more on his house feats and house skill rules. I am interested in his and his group's conceptualizations, here.

[Celebrim]

Edena: I'm not exactly sure how I was unclear. However, this is the homebrew feat I mentioned. It's pretty straight forward, and should look pretty familiar.

Skill Aptitude (General)
You have a natural advantage that makes you especially suited for two particular skills.
Benefit: Choose two skills that you can logically connect in some fashion to your character's background or experiences. You gain a +2 bonus in all skill checks with those skills. Some examples:

Acrobatic: +2 bonus on all Jump checks and Tumble checks.
Agile: +2 bonus on all Balance checks and Escape Artist checks.
Animal Affinity: +2 bonus on all Handle Animal checks and Ride checks.
Arcane Expert: +2 on Knowledge(Arcana). +2 on Use Magic Device.
Artist: +2 on Perform. +2 on a single Craft skill that involves art.
Atheletic: +2 bonus on all Climb checks and Swim checks
Born to Intrigue: +2 to Sense Motive. +2 to Innuendo.
Cat Burglar: +2 on Balance. +2 on Climb.
Charlatan: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Disguise.
Cunning: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Pick Pocket.
Deceitful: +2 bonus on all Disguise checks and Forgery checks.
Deft Hands: +2 bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks and Use Rope checks
Diligent: +2 bonus on all Appraise checks and Decipher Script checks.
Eye for Detail: +2 on Appraise. +2 on Search.
Fast Talker: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Diplomacy.
Flair: +2 aptitude bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.
Investigator: +2 bonus on all Gather Information checks and Search checks
Low Key: +2 on Disguise. +2 on Hide.
Keen Vision: +2 on Search. +2 on Spot.
Magical Talent: +2 on Spellcraft. +2 on Knowledge(Arcana).
Negotiator: +2 bonus on all Diplomacy checks and Sense Motive checks
Nimble Fingers: +2 bonus on all Disable Device checks and Open Lock checks.
Persuasive: +2 on Bluff. +2 on Intimidate.
Self-sufficient: +2 bonus on all Heal checks and Survival checks
Stealthy: +2 bonus on all Hide checks and Move Silently checks

Special: You may gain take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to two different skills. Its effects do not stack.
Note: This feat replaces all feats which normally provide unnamed bonuses to multiple skills.

The only other homebrew thing I mentioned was a homebrew skill, "Tactics", which is a class skill for fighters and can be taken cross class by other classes. It doesn't really effect the build for the Mongol Warrior, but I feel its appropriate given the high degree of tactical coordination displayed by the Horde. They were generally much better organized than their foes, and generally relied on not just mobility, but superior command and control and unit discipline to defeat larger or better armed forces.

TACTICS (INT; TRAINED ONLY)
Tactics is the skill, knowledge, and understanding of how to fight and particularly how to work with others in battle. Tactics are used to direct the movement of troops in battle, to correctly assess the tactical value of terrain, and to move in battle formation.
Check: Close Formation (DC 10): Three medium sized creatures can engage in melee along a 10’ wide front without squeezing penalties, provided that all three succeed in this check. If any of the creatures are size small, all gain a +2 circumstance bonus on this check. If all the creatures are size small, they all gain a +4 circumstance bonus.
Phalanx (DC 10): If you use a range weapon to attack an opponent on the other side of an ally, the opponent does not gain partial cover from the ally provided both you and the ally make this check.
Assess Opponent (DC 15): As a free action, once per round, you can gain a single piece of information about an opponent who is engaged in combat – whether or not they have a particular feat, advantage, or disadvantage, whether or not they have an available attack of opportunity, or what stance they are currently fighting in (aggressive, defensive, full defense, or normal). You may ask only one question per round of combat, and you will only receive a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ response.
Assess Terrain (DC 15): As a free action, once per round, you can gain full details about the terrain of any 5’ square you can observe clearly. For example, you will know the balance DC of passing through the square, whether it is difficult terrain, what degree of cover or concealment it provides, and whether it offers in circumstance bonuses or penalties to combat with respect to other squares. If you make this check as a full round action, you gain similar information about every 5’ square you can clearly observe.
Fight in Ranks (DC 15): If you have a range weapon, and an adjacent ally is directly between you and your target, then you may treat your attack as if it originated from your ally’s square, provided both you and the ally succeed in this check.
Form a Shield Wall (DC 15): You may add your base shield bonus to the base shield bonus of any adjacent ally, provided that they have a shield, are not flanked, and succeed in this check as well.
Improve Cover (DC 20): If you have cover, you may at your option treat it as one higher step of cover.
Prevent Flanking (DC 20): As long as you are not also flanked, you can negate the flanking penalty against any single adjacent ally.
Tight Formation (DC 25): Two medium sized characters can engage in melee along a 5’ wide front without squeezing penalties, provided that both succeed in this check. If either of the creatures are size small, they gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. If both of the creatures are size small, they both gain a +4 circumstance bonus on the check.
Flank from adjacent square (DC 25): For the purpose of flanking an adjacent opponent, you may consider your character to occupy any unoccupied square you are adjacent to.
Enhance Initiative (DC 25): If you were prepared at the beginning of combat, you gain a +2 bonus to your initiative.
On Guard (DC 35): If you would be surprised, you may become prepared instead of flat-footed.
Enhance Group Initiative (DC 35): If every ally was prepared at the beginning of combat, they all gain a +2 bonus to initiative provided they were under your direction.
Special: You have a +2 synergy bonus when using this skill to Assess Opponent if you have at least 5 ranks in Sense Motive. You have a +2 synergy bonus when using this skill to Assess Terrain if you have at least 5 ranks in Survival.

It's not what I'd consider well play tested, but only in the sense that I don't like how it can add bunch of dice thrown to each round in the worst case. At higher levels though, anyone who is trying to go the 'warlord' route would automatically succeed at most common checks. I'd consider dropping the DC's of some checks just to accomplish that quicker.

None of that though would seem to clarify my post.

So, to clarify my post, I was drawing a contrast between the 17 feats that you felt created the image of a Rhohirrim, and the six or so that I felt were necessary (assuming of course we let the Riders of Rohan be more than 1st level fighters). My 1st level mounted archer has Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery as feats. This lets him move and fire effectively. He also has a +10 bonus to Ride from Skill Focus (Ride), a combat saddle, +1 Dex bonus, and 4 ranks in ride. It's only DC 5 to control a mount with your knees in order to fire an arrow, so our archer never fails at that or at fighting with his warhorse, and indeed can usually (75%) hang off the side of his horse to provide himself cover when fighting. So he's good at what he does, even without any bonus feats, and can accomplish that trick from the movie of turning around in the saddle and shooting behind the horse without a problem.

The 11 feats aren't necessary.

But, on the other hand, I agree that he feels just a little bit cramped, as if he didn't quite fit the whole image of a nomadic tribal horse warrior. Ideally, a couple of other feats would make him feel more well-rounded without feeling 'Monty Haulish'. Where I'm going with this is, "Ok, 11 feats at first level might be more than a bit excessive, but is 1 feat at first level (and possibly 1-2 bonus feats depending on class and race) too strict. Can we make up examples of fairly low level fighters that do seem to need something to do what they do?"

One of the reasons for bringing up the Tactics skill, is often I think 3rd edition had a flaw of mistaking a common skill or ordinary manuever that you ought to be able to use even untrained (if not well), for a feat or feat tree. If you'll notice, the Tactics skill lets heavy infantry - like a Macedonian Phalanx - do alot of what heavy infantry do without recourse to needing to front load a bunch of feats. In other words, maybe the boys from Sparta didn't have 11 feats, they just all had a skill focus in Tactics that let them work together very well.

[Celebrim]

Edena: Just to clarify.

Originally Posted by Edena_of_Neith

Remember that scene in The Two Towers, where that guy turns around and shoots *backwards* from a galloping horse, as they slaughter the Uruk-Hai?

But as I've shown, a fighter that focuses in mounted archery can do that at 1st level.

Just from the PHB, it seems the rider would need his 4 ranks in Ride (plus a very high stat to help out), and:

Four ranks in ride, certainly, but as I've shown, I can get by with 13 Dex, and even that is gravy.

Alertness (anyone riding a horse at high speed would need this, since horseback riding is so dangerous, both to the rider and horse. Charging around on horseback is almost suicidally dangerous, even when you are not wearing armor and fighting.)

I think here you are confusing the idea of a particular skill, riding a horse, with the qualities that make you an excellent horseman. Strictly speaking, all I need to ride a horse in D&D is a high ride skill bonus. Remember, these are the same riders that ride right past the three hunters without seeing them. There spot skill check is probably pretty good, but it isn't especially good. Maybe some of the riders have 'Alterness', but it doesn't have to be ubiquitous.

Endurance (this is a *fighter.* He is expected to go the distance. And as a horseback rider, he's had to intensively practice this exhaustive skill.)

Generally, I agree.

Iron Will (again, this is a *fighter.* He's trained to endure hardship, pain, to fight while in pain, to take care of his horse under duress, etc.)

I sort of agree in as much as I think military training imposes a certain mental discipline, but exactly what form it takes, I'm not sure. It would be nice if the concentration skill let you do mentally arduous tasks, but I've never figured out exactly what game effect that would have. Also, I'm inclined to think that what military discipline does can't be quite simulated without importing fear and horror rules into core D&D.

Lightning Reflexes (if he's going to be firing arrows, holding onto his horse only with his legs, you'd expect this guy to be trained with his reflexes. And things happen fast in combat, when you are galloping around on a horse. Of course he needs trained reflexes, even if his reflexes were normally fast.)

I don't agree. This is just gravy, especially since you've already assumed high dexterity. He's already got better reflexes than average.

Blind-Fight (this is not about fighting in the 'dark.' It is about fighting in the chaos of an all out melee. Visibility isn't exactly good when you are caught in the midst of a melee. Being on horseback helps, but what if it's cloudy? Raining? Snowing? Sunset or sunrise? Smoky? Partial cover for the enemy or he's hiding in cover himself? And if he's thrown off his horse, visibility is greatly restricted when several people are towering over him, blocking out the light, trying to smite him. In the film, the Rohirrim attacked at night.)

I agree, but only because the Orcs in the books are greatly impressed with the Rohirrim's night vision. So apparantly, training in fighting in the dark is part of the package for the Riders of Rohan. However, from the text, part of this seemed to be a particular sensitivity to their horses emotions, that let them use as it were the horses nose and ears almost as well as their own. Again, I'm not entirely sure how best to implement this.

Expertise (he must have this feat to have Shot on the Run, below)

Doesn't need 'Shot on the Run', so doesn't need Expertise. Under the rules, a horse archer can already move - fire - move, without a feat.

Improved Initiative (this is a result of trained reflexes. If he's so trained he can fire arrows from a galloping horse, he should be trained enough to react quickly in combat.)

Again, gravy. You've already assigned a high dexterity, so their initiative is already higher than normal.

Dodge (this penalty feat accrues as a result of his combat training.)

Doesn't need dodge. He can use his Ride skill to accomplish more dramatic defensive actions.

That's 10 feats, so far. He only has 1 feat left. Not enough. I'll have to give him the 2 drawbacks (for 6 more feats) so he'll have enough feats for what I'm trying to create.

So far, I've used 3 feats - Skill Focus (Ride), Endurance, and Blind-Fighting. So far, he's just a 1st level fighter. All he needs now to become a skilled horse archer is Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery. He can get those as a 3rd level fighter. Sure, he can load up on other feats to become a better horse archer, but he now has enough to do the job compentently. Is anything missing? Maybe, but it's not 12 feats worth of stuff. If anything, it's skill points, which a fighter is pretty desparately short on.

What interests me in these conversations is whether we can say, "Ok, I want to create a Spartan Phalanx, but I want to do it as fighters of 4th level or lower. Can I do it under the rules or is something missing?" If you can't do it, it suggests to me that we really do need more feats at low levels. I'm pretty sure though that it would never be 17.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Request: For the feats from sources other than the Player's Handbook, could you list them?

Most of my books are in storage while I do a renovation, but I'll edit my previous posts as best I can- all errors are my own.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thank you both (Dannyalcatraz, Celebrim.)

Celebrim, I like the Skill Aptitude Feat and the Tactics Skill. I think those were really well done, nicely thought out.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just out of curiosity- is there an underlying point to this thread (like trying to determine how Feat intensive certain builds can be) or were you just exercising some idle curiosity of your own?

[hollowleg]

This would be a very fun variant to play... may have to attempt it.

[Edena_of_Neith]

This is a matter of curiosity.

[Edena_of_Neith]

The following build is for a wizard.
It is presumed that, as an apprentice, she had access to a magical school that specialized in pulling out the hidden, untapped powers of the mind (ala, the 90% of the brain is unused bit) to produce astonishing intellectual feats.
It is also presumed that the wizard apprentice has an intelligence of 16 or higher (preferably 18), and was a magical prodigy to start with.
So, she begins with the following feats:

Spellcasting Prodigy (Forgotten Realms Setting, 3.0 Version)
Spell Focus - All Eight Schools (3.0 version) (this costs 8 feats) (In *this* case, Spell Focus stacks with Spellcasting Prodigy, as a House Rule, due to the school of magic mentioned above ... this is an exception to the 3rd Edition rules.)
Spell Mastery - Read Magic, Detect Magic, Conjure Spell Components, Comprehend Languages
Spell Mastery (another 4 spells of the apprentice's choice)

Thus, due to the cerebral nature of the schooling (as opposed to being trained to project your spells with crushing force ... but they both lead to the same thing), the wizard's Spell DCs are 10 + The Spell Level + 4 (18 Intelligence) + 1 (Spellcasting Prodigy, 3.0 Version) + 2 (Spell Focus, 3.0 Version)
So, her 1st level spells have a DC of 18.

In *this* case, she must take Spell Focus in ALL 8 schools (and use 8 feats to do it), or take Spell Focus in no schools. The cerebral nature of the training does not distinguish between schools, so it's an All or Nothing affair.
She must devote at least one of her 3 feats each level after first, to Greater Spell Focus, until she has it in all 8 schools. It is a long term effect of her training. And although having Greater Spell Focus (3.0 Version, another +2 to Spell DC) is a great thing, 8 feats must be used up for this purpose.

The school won't have it any other way than to demand she 'know' her spells, *truly*. Thus, Spell Mastery.
Spell Mastery is a truly astonishing feat of memorization (from my point of view), but someone that bright, given that training, and tapping the hidden potential of the mind, could do it. The school demands that she *does* do it, for every spell they are willing to teach her ... in addition to writing these spells down in her spellbooks.

This school wouldn't hear of such nonsense as 'wearing armor' or 'fighter/mages.' To them, the cerebral approach is everything. Victory in all things is accomplished through the cerebral approach (they probably have a good aligned illithid philosopher on their staff ...)
If the student returns to the school after reaching 3rd level, the school is going to require she take Extra Spell Slot feats. There is nothing as fantastic as expanding your mind (or, in this case, expanding the number of spells, the amount of magical power, you can hold in your mind.)

But weapon proficiencies? Feats from the Complete Adventurer? Instant Metamagic Feats (Sudden Silent, Sudden Still, etc.) ? Useless Metamagic Feats that require higher spell levels, and which can wait until later?
Not at all.
It's going to be Extra Spell Slots (spells are the Divine gift to the wizard!), Greater Spell Focus, and other cerebral feats ... or the wizard isn't going to be welcome at that school anymore.

If the wizard takes 2 drawbacks at the start, gaining another 6 feats, the school might teach, or the wizard might take:

Ambidexterity (obviously, being able to cast equally from either hand is a plus)
Improved Initiative (a result of lightning cerebral thinking, not combat training ... note that Combat Casting is *not* taught ... the school considers any wizard who allows herself to be drawn into hand to hand combat is an idiot)
Spell Penetration (but if so, the wizard will be required to devote ALL 6 bonus feats to it, plus 2 more as she advances in level, so that she has Spell Penetration in all schools)
Spell Hand (for obvious reasons ... the school considers that the true wizard ALWAYS attacks from a distance, and the Spell Hand is one of the best ways to deliver Touch Spells at range.)

EDIT: Even if the standard rules (no stacking allowed) were used, the wizard would still be required to take Spellcasting Prodigy (as a penalty feat, as it were.) It is a part of her background. The school desires prodigies (or her mentor desired a prodigy) to teach the secrets of magic.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Here is an effort at a wizard who is also a warrior.
She comes from a background where her mentor (or school) threw everything but the kitchen sink at her. She's been through the School of Hard Knocks, at is were, as they tried to prepare her for a life of fighting, winning by any and all means possible.
She begins with the 11 feats, plus 6 for 2 drawbacks, and she has:

Simple Weapon Proficiency
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Monkey Grip (as an almost supernatural ability, granted magically to her by her mentor/school, in an effort to aid her in wielding her 4 1/2 foot long weapon deftly ... she, herself, is only 5 1/2 feet tall)
Armor Proficiency, Light
Armor Proficiency, Medium
Armor Proficiency, Heavy (the dice rolls are random, but her mentor/school doesn't think in these terms: if she can't figure out how to cast her spells in gauntlets, after all that training, it is her problem and *her* failure)
Ambidexterity
Blind-Fight
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative (trained to be fast, not innate)
Improved Unarmed Strike
Quick Draw
Two Weapon Fighting

(Note that Weapon Finesse (Short Sword) will be taken when her BAB is +1)

Combat Casting (obviously)
Spell Focus - Invocation/Evocation (3.0 version, trained to make focused, crushing assaults with her spells)
Spell Focus - Necromancy (3.0 version, she is being trained to kill things ...)
Spell Focus - Enchantment/Charm (3.0 version)

With her 17 dexterity, she has a +3 bonus from that stat, so her Initiative is +7.
She will cast her spells, and hopefully the Spell Focus will enable them to destroy the enemy.
If that does not work, she will be ready with bastard sword and short sword, with only minor penalties for each weapon ( - 1 and - 1 ?)
Wearing plate armor, hopefully she can strike down the foe before they strike her down (with 14 strength, she can manage the heavy plate armor.)

When her spells are exhausted, she is ready as a backup fighter, ready to leap into the fray, getting close and personal with the foe. She wields her heavy bastard sword with the ease and grace of a rapier thanks to Monkey Grip, and her short sword is ready for a nasty stab at any opening (with Weapon Finesse, she will gain a +3 to her BAB with it.)

She does not have many hit points, but she threw Regenerate on herself that morning (from Polyhedron #24 (or #27), 2nd Edition, brought forward to 3rd Edition, works as per the Ring of Regeneration), it lasts 12 hours, and she is not worried. (She has an extra spell for Intelligence, and it's Sleep, or Charm Person, or something appropriately nasty for a 1st level spell.)

[Edena_of_Neith]

So, why didn't the character immediately above take 1 level of Fighter, gain all the Fighter starting feats 'for free', and then take the other feats?
Because of Storyline. Chronology. Her feats were taken during training, are in effect when she begins adventuring at 1st level.

Now, one could suspend belief and take 1 fighter level, then start her as a wizard at 2nd level. This would gain her more feats (5 additional feats), and it is - or was - a popular choice, it seems, within the RAW.
But then, she wouldn't be a wizard at 1st level. She trained for years to be a wizard, but she cannot cast spells as one. She may die, during her sojourn as a 1st level character; die, and have never cast a spell as a wizard, despite having trained as one.

This, then, is a choice of the player and DM to make. Suspend belief and min/max, or go with the storyline and chronology? Up to them.

EDIT: If the character was specifically trained as a fighter/mage, then there is no choice but to 'start' as either a fighter or a wizard, then take the other class at 2nd level. Only the Gestalt rules surpass this restriction, and that's another situation altogether.
The character above assumes a sort of fighter/mage training, but wizard comes first, fighter second, in this particular case.

[A Powerful Necromanc]

I choose...

Name: Zera Albrack

Race:
Human (PRB): +2 assigned to str, favoured class: bard

Class:
Bard (PRB)

Drawbacks:
Poor reflexes,
Inattentive

Stats: Strength, constitution, dexterity are most important (in that order). Nothing else matters in the slightest.

Traits: adopted [choose the halfling +1 thrown weapon/sling bonus]
Armor expert (PCT)

Feats:
Throw anything [no -4 to improvised thrown weapons] (PRB)
Arcane Strike [+1 damage, damage considered magic] (PRB)
Brutal Throw [Strength to attack rolls with improvised weapons] (CA)
Natural Heavyweight (double carrying capacity) (Planar)
Poison Immunity [Choosen immunity: Black Lotus Extract] (BVD)
Point blank shot
Intimidating prowess [Strength to intimidate instead of charisma] (PRB)
Wiling deformity [+2 on intimidate checks]
Deformity (eyes) [See invisibility, one minute] (BVD)
Deformity (Face) [+2 intimidate, +2 diplomacy with evil creatures] (BVD)
Improved initiative
Danger sense [reroll initiative, take best result] (Complete adventurer)
Lucky start [reroll initiative, take second] (complete scoundrel)
Luck of Heroes [+1 all saves, +1 AC] (hell if I remember)
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Greater Fortitude

Stats (3d6, reroll once. Assign)
Strength: 20 (+5) Dexterity: 16 Constitution: 16 Intelligence: 13 Wisdom: 6 Charisma: 15

Class abilities: Bardic Knowledge (Chosen: Local), Bardic Performance, cantrips, countersongs, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1

Skills: Bluff +6 diplomacy +6 perform (Flute) +8 (MW instrument) Knowledge (history) +5 Knowlege (arcana) +5 Knowledge (the planes) +5 Intimidate +10 Knowledge (religion) + 5 Knowledge (local) +2

Spells known:
Oth
Daze
Flare
Dancing Lights
Know Direction

1st
Cure light wounds
Feather Fall

Per day
1st: 2

Background: Zera, The Shadow Bard, quickly became well known not for his storytelling or musical talent. But rather his calm, sadistic demeaner present in day-to-day life. Be it slaughtering a village of innocents, or simply relaxing in the torture chamber with a victim or two.

He learned, at a young age, that weapons are easily sundered, and thus preferred to throw any nearby objects. Mugs, large rocks, gnomes, anything he could get his hands on.

Over the years, from living in the poisoned wastes of his mistress, he's gained resistance (and even immunity) to some of the nastiest poisons and effects in the world.

I will finish his gear/etc when I'm less comatose.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Heh- I like those first 3 put together...makes me think of the Marvel Comics character Gambit.

[Dannyalcatraz]

For (insane, Chthulhu-mythos) giggles...

Dex/Str/Wis-build Monk:
1) Aberration Feat: Aberration Blood (LoM p178)
2) Aberration Feat: Inhuman Reach [adds +5reach] (LoM p 180)
3) Vile Feat: Willing Deformity (HoH p125)
4) Vile feat: Deformity [Tall] gives your PC the natural reach of a PC one size larger (HoH p 121)
5) Power Attack
6) Cleave
7) Combat Reflexes
8) Hold the Line
9) Stand Still
10) Deft Opportunist
11) Improved Natural Attack

This mutant has ungodly reach and a high dex and strength, meaning he can strike with reach and power and will get many AoOs. The Deft Opportunist Feat will mean those AoOs will land, the INA means they will hurt.

After that first level, there are all kinds of ways to go (see my previous monk builds, for instance).

Ia! Ia! C'thulhu F'tagn!

Normally...someone with his familial background would be more...chaotic. However, he always was the black squid...er...sheep of the family.

[Aus_Snow]

Looks like fun.

Here then is a knight, of sorts:

Male Human Fighter 1 (now using 40 pb)

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

HP: 13

BAB: +1

Fort Save: +5
Ref Save: +0
Will Save: +6 (+10 vs. Fear and Compulsion effects)

Skills: Diplomacy 4 (+8), Handle Animal 4 (+6), Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 1 (+1), Knowledge (geography) 1 (+1), Knowledge (history) 2 (+2), Knowledge (local) 2 (+2), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) 4 (+4), Knowledge (religion) 2 (+2), Listen 3 (+6), Ride 4 (+4), Sense Motive 4 (+7), Speak Language ([some classical language]) 1, Spot 4 (+7)

Feats: Able Learner (RoD), Cleave, Lionhearted (PotS), Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Sacred Vow (BoED), Spirited Charge, True Believer (CD), Vow of Obedience (BoED).

Comments on the pervious version

Notes

Abilities are 32 point buy. All feats are from the PHB except those with the following acronyms - BoED = Book of Exalted Deeds, CD = Complete Divine, RoD = Races of Destiny (all WotC); PotS = Path of the Sword (Fantasy Flight).


Reasoning / Musings

I mainly wanted to see how far one might have to go in terms of 'breaking' the PHB setup, in order to create a basically functional knight type. Well, of this sort anyway. With 12 feats (including the Fighter bonus feat), by gawsh, it's almost doable! This is just a quick attempt; I'm pretty sure I could do better, given sufficient time and motivation. Also, guy needs a name. . .

I then realised (once again) that, if one was stuck with only core classes (including NPC classes), Aristocrat would (overall) make for a much better knight. . . if only their BAB was good. Even so. . .