Cleric Spellbook

[Herzog]

I'm thinking about giving the Cleric a spellbook (prayerbook if you like) that functions just like the wizards:
Clerics can only learn those spells that are in their prayerbook.

I'll probably leave the domain spells as 'free' spells (can be learned without a prayerbook).

The same methods for (new) spell acquisition would apply as for wizards.

Now, before even thinking about suggesting this to my players, I'm asking here whether you think this would reduce the playability of the Cleric to an unplayable point?

As a sidenote, I would like to add that the player currently running a Cleric would probably welcome a reduction in choice, since she really hates going over the entire list every (in game) day diciding what to select.
However, should other players take up a cleric at some time, they would be impacted by this too, of course.

Your thoughts?

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Herzog

I'm thinking about giving the Cleric a spellbook (prayerbook if you like) that functions just like the wizards:
Clerics can only learn those spells that are in their prayerbook.

I'll probably leave the domain spells as 'free' spells (can be learned without a prayerbook).

The same methods for (new) spell acquisition would apply as for wizards.

Now, before even thinking about suggesting this to my players, I'm asking here whether you think this would reduce the playability of the Cleric to an unplayable point?

As a sidenote, I would like to add that the player currently running a Cleric would probably welcome a reduction in choice, since she really hates going over the entire list every (in game) day diciding what to select.
However, should other players take up a cleric at some time, they would be impacted by this too, of course.

Your thoughts?

I think you should grant all healing and inflict spells automatically.

It makes no sense to be able to spontaneously cast a spell you don't even know.

[Herzog]

Good catch.
It won't impact the campaign I'm currently running (due to other houserules) but any spell that can be cast spontaneously (healing or inflict) should be available without having to learn it.

Should I introduce druids using the same mechanic, they would know Summon Nature's Ally.

[Ashtagon]

For druids, rather than have books (which doesn't make too much sense considering the class concept), perhaps they could carry around a series of spell tokens which they meditate upon? Certain herbal plants and trees could also be used to meditate, as if they were a natural spell book (obviously not containing the entire druid list in each one though).

[Loonook]

Why should druids not have spellbooks? The Voynich Manuscript, with its depictions of biology, herbology, astronomy, and cosmology could easily be a druidic manual of spellcraft... paper can be made of plenty of sources, and the creation of pulp from ritually sacrificed dreams, or vellum from a kid goat raised to serve as part of a hallow sacrificial effect for the glade...

Sanctum-based druids could have caves of spells, trees which bear the markings of the druid's handiwork, or a long lightning-struck ash staff bearing the spell which allows the druid to sense the specific type of reading magic he has shaped to notice the subtle differences in placements of stones and such as his natural spellbook.

Plenty... plenty of possibilities for druids to have spellbooks. I can imagine Cleric spellbooks would probably appear in the style of a book of hours, or perhaps

[Herzog]

Mmmmm. I was expecting raging hordes with pitchforks and torches, protecting the poor Cleric from the mad DM.

Ok, let me refrase my question:

Why should I NOT do this?

[Loonook]

Honestly I've always thought that clerics should be... a bit different in the context. Since they are calling down the power of the heavens... it may be interesting to let prescribed prayers be comparable to miraculous happenings.

Happenings would cost you a spell slot, take you a longer time to cast (lvl worth of rounds?) and make a check of some sort. If passed, you spontaneously cast the spell, burning the slot.

Ehh... that's my story :-p.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

[Herobizkit]

I could see the only reason NOT to do this would be to appease the players who hate Vancian spellcasting. The ability of clerics to pray for any spell is (supposed to be) offset by their shorter and arguably more thematically focused spell list. If Clerics must now scrounge for their spells, I would suggest making said Clerics more like Wizards by using the Cloistered Cleric variant from the SRD.

Or do what I did... ban wizards and make Sorcerers and Favored Souls the primary casters of my campaign world.

[Orius]

Originally Posted by Herzog

Mmmmm. I was expecting raging hordes with pitchforks and torches, protecting the poor Cleric from the mad DM.

Ok, let me refrase my question:

Why should I NOT do this?

Well, it does introduce a disadvantage to the cleric. If you're just using the main PHB/SRD spells, there's little reason to bother with this variant.

However, I have been considering for quite a while the idea of a prayerbook for clerics as a means of introducing less common spells. This goes back in large part to the 2e Priest's Spell Compendium which had a very large number of spells and added in a spell rarity system like the Wizard's Compendium. I've been thinking of adding prayerbooks to the campaign as a way of controlling the use of non-common spells (essentially everything outside the PHB/SRD), since allowing the cleric to memorize ANY cleric spell is a bit unbalancing compared to the way a wizard gets spells. CoDzilla's bad enough with just core. Part of this would be having deity specific spells/prayers, and maybe having different orders within a faith that have their own subset of spells/prayers.

My idea was somthing like they all have a basic prayerbook that has the proper devotions to receive any PHB/SRD spell. Other spells they have to find the prayer for at various shrines, temples, abbeys, or whatever, much in the same way a wizard uses libraries. So maybe something like a spell from Complete Divine which is relatively common is known to an order within the church and the cleric needs to join the order or at least visit one of their churches to learn it. A rare spell might only be found in a single monastery. The prayers shouldn't be as difficult to replace as a spellbook though, because while a spellbook represents a wizard's personal knowledge, the prayers and devotions a cleric goes though to gain spells are part of a broader religious tradition. Making domain and spontaneous spells free is a good idea I hadn't considered.

I'm specifically using the term prayerbook here because conceptually, they not using the book as a set of notes to mentally prepare magic, but they're praying to their god for various miracles. They shouldn't do it exactly the same way as a wizard.

Another problem I've have with the idea is just what to do with druids. Druids should have something similar if clerics do for balance. Books don't really seem to fit into druid flavor though. There've been a few good ideas already.

And because you created this thread, I can just easily glom onto it here instead of making a new one.

[Jack7]

Herzog, I like the idea of a Prayerbook. I got a few of my own. In real life, not in game. But it seems like something a cleric would naturally want, would want to create, and would gravitate towards. I've created a few of my own and I'm not even ordained.

I'm not gonna use the idea exactly like you describe, as a parallel for the Spellbook, but I am gonna adopt and adapt the idea for my own setting. It's a really good idea.

I'm thinking of using it to concentrate the other powers of the Cleric (like laying on hands and helping to heal), to improve his relationship with his God, or gods, maybe to help augment or extend miraculous power (divine spell power). I'm even gonna use prayerbooks as code-books (having secret capabilities underneath the magically Divine writings) and as conjuncts to scriptures. And as treasure.

There's a lot of things you can do with this.

It's a good, solid idea.
Appreciate it.

Have some XP.

[Sigurd]

I like the idea a lot.

Imagine a Cleric doesn't need a prayerbook if he has a congregation of praying worshipers. Something about their combined faith filling the congregational leader with ideas and power.

In the absence of a congregation however,,,, a cleric needs a crusading kit. That kit must be a) god specific b) sanctified by the church. In the case of small gods or really minor congregations prayer books are instances of holy incite and empathy.

Clerics that can reach a church of their god would do well to visit and recharge.


Sigurd

[Herzog]

I made a very vague suggestion to the player in question last weekend, and got a rather unexpected negative reply.
(something about bashing my head in and starting another character)

I must say, after the initial responses here and her compaints about the long lists of cleric spells earlier, this was a surprise.
I guess I have to start from the beginning, talk about why I want this and how it will influence her character, before putting a final rule in play.

I have to say I originally was planning to introduce a rule identical to the wizards' spellbook for Clerics, but the last responses here (and the reaction of the player) have given my idea a new direction.

Maybe the prayerbook should automatically contain all the PHB spells, and only the additional spells (Spell Compendium mostly) should be added one by one, although maybe not at the cost specified for wizard spells.
It would become more of a hindrance (having to carry all those prayerbooks if you really want to carry along all those spells) and perhaps a liability (what if you get seperated from your prayerbook?)

Allowing 'spontaneous casting' from prayerbooks (with increased casting time) also sounds like a good idea. I might even port that to wizards as well.

Maybe I can warm her up to the idea with the combination of bonus and penalty of such a prayerbook.....

As to church or god specific prayerbooks: It sounds nice but: it will mean extra work for me (DM) that could have gotten into preparing for the next adventure. Or, like, having a life

[concerro]

Originally Posted by Herzog

I'm thinking about giving the Cleric a spellbook (prayerbook if you like) that functions just like the wizards:
Clerics can only learn those spells that are in their prayerbook.

I'll probably leave the domain spells as 'free' spells (can be learned without a prayerbook).

The same methods for (new) spell acquisition would apply as for wizards.

Now, before even thinking about suggesting this to my players, I'm asking here whether you think this would reduce the playability of the Cleric to an unplayable point?

As a sidenote, I would like to add that the player currently running a Cleric would probably welcome a reduction in choice, since she really hates going over the entire list every (in game) day diciding what to select.
However, should other players take up a cleric at some time, they would be impacted by this too, of course.

Your thoughts?

Why not just use an archivist?

[Orius]

Originally Posted by Herzog

I have to say I originally was planning to introduce a rule identical to the wizards' spellbook for Clerics, but the last responses here (and the reaction of the player) have given my idea a new direction.

Like I said, it would be a bit unfair to make it exactly like the wizard rule, since clerics are supposed to be able to access anything on the spell list. Anything here generally means what's in the PHB.

Maybe the prayerbook should automatically contain all the PHB spells, and only the additional spells (Spell Compendium mostly) should be added one by one, although maybe not at the cost specified for wizard spells.

That's what I suggested above. Stuff from a source like Spell Compendium would require some extra work on the part of the player, like visiting a temple that has the spell in the library.

It would become more of a hindrance (having to carry all those prayerbooks if you really want to carry along all those spells) and perhaps a liability (what if you get seperated from your prayerbook?)

I would not make the prayerbook a huge hindrance like the wizard spellbook. Like I said above, the wizard's spellbook is essential a personal notebook of magical knowledge which is unique to the wizard who wrote it. That's why it's hard to replace. The cleric OTOH, gets the spells from her god, so losing a prayerbook shouldn't mean she loses the favor of the god unless she was careless. Replacing harder to find spells shouldn't be difficult.

Allowing 'spontaneous casting' from prayerbooks (with increased casting time) also sounds like a good idea. I might even port that to wizards as well.

Casting healing spells from a prayerbook isn't exactly something I had in mind, but that could work too. As for the wizard, I'd suggest bumping a casting time by at least 10 or even 100 to cast the spell out of the book. So a spell that takes 1 round to cast takes a minute or 10 minutes by casting it from the book. This allows the wizard to cast stuff like knock or something spontaneously, but it's time consuming, and unsuitable for combat. Plus there's the risk of random encounters. Perhaps a failure chance as well could be considered, since the wizard's spells per day is a balancing factor.

Maybe I can warm her up to the idea with the combination of bonus and penalty of such a prayerbook.....

Why don't you have her take a look at this thread and work something out together?

As to church or god specific prayerbooks: It sounds nice but: it will mean extra work for me (DM) that could have gotten into preparing for the next adventure. Or, like, having a life

Just start with a few obscure spells and add as you go. Stuff from general optional sources coul be available to anyone.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Some thoughts on Clerics and prayer(spell)books, in no particular order:

1) Instead of making all Healing spells appear in the prayerbook, perhaps Clerics should channel spells appropriate to their particular faith...and THOSE should be automatically in the prayerbook. (Domain spells, perhaps?) Yes, this is a major change in clerical mechanics, but it makes a certain amount of sense...

2) IME, most people of faith, especially clergy, tend to memorize the prayers they say the most often- prayerbooks become a crutch for moments of forgetfulness or stress in regard to those prayers. To study religion at the level of a clergyman almost seems to require an almost rote memorization of vast amounts of holy scripture.

To mimic this, perhaps over time a cleric would choose certain spells that they would not have any need to read ever again- or perhaps casting such spells don't cause the caster to expend a slot. IOW, they'd be almost like how Shadow mages from the ToM start being able to cast certain spells at will. You'd need to tweek the mechanics to avoid imbalance, though.

3) If you do this, PLEASE be sensible and don't preclude the ownership of a prayerbook by a PC with a VoP. It violates the internal logic of such a vow to prevent a clergyman from carrying the scripture of the being to whom the vow is sworn.

[Ashtagon]

If you have prayer books...

Any prayer the character should normally be able to cast spontaneously should be memorised as if the character had the Spell Mastery feat (no need to study a book to place the spell in a spell slot). Depending on whether you choose the spontaneous domains option in PHB2, that may apply to domain spells. Maybe apply this to domain spells by default anyway.

To reflect rote memorisation, allow the character to select one spell each class level to add to this list of Spell mastery spells.

This isn't really as big a bonus as you might imagine. Yes, technically it's a couple of dozen free feats over a 20-level career, but Spell Mastery is a weak feat, and very circumstantial. Few DMs actually force a wizard to be away from his books for any meaningful amount of time, since everyone knows that effectively cripples the class.

[Dyson Logos]

What I've always done is to only allow the "core" spells to be available to clerics through basic prayer. Learning spells that are not on that core list requires research or finding a scroll of the spell and then, basically, adding it to your prayer book. Most clerics don't have such books, as they use the standard spells, but many elder clerics and adventuring clerics do, as they have learned new and unusual spells along the way.

[Orius]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

3) If you do this, PLEASE be sensible and don't preclude the ownership of a prayerbook by a PC with a VoP. It violates the internal logic of such a vow to prevent a clergyman from carrying the scripture of the being to whom the vow is sworn.

VoP = vow of poverty I assume? That would be another sign of a jerkweed DM. A vow of poverty taken by a clergy member shouldn't apply to things that are part of his or her faith. A prayerbook shouldn't violate the vow, as long as it's not overly ostentatious.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yep.

And yet that is the common RAW interpretation of what happens when the VoP interacts with holy symbols and certain divine foci that are not otherwise contained in a standard spellpouch.