Arcane spell Failure + Spellcraft skill?

Sylrae · 28th June 2009, 01:38 AM

Has anyone changed Arcane spell failure to be a spellcraft skill check? I was thinking maybe instead of flat % of failure those flat chances could somehow be translated to skill DCs.

I was also thinking of factoring in weight of carried items. So if you're carrying too much you start having a higher DC. I can see PC casters dropping their pack on the ground to lower the DC, but that introduces new ideas, like the goblins trying to run off with their bag *evil smirk*

What do people think of this general Idea? Any advice for the DCs?

Edit: I'm thinking Spellcraft using Dex instead of Int.

gamecat · 29th June 2009, 10:54 PM

Doable.

I'm not sure how I feel about ASF; it seems in the third/third-and-a-half edition of D&D they kept ASF around as an artifact of previous games and never let it off easy - they never wanted to give it away for a feat.

the_orc_within · 30th June 2009, 02:00 AM

I like the idea just for consistency. It's funny that ASF is d%, while the rest of the game uses a d20 mechanic.

ASF by RAW isn't really level dependent, so using Spellcraft - which is level dependent - would make heavier armor/encumbrance more manageable at higher levels. It opens the door for sorcs eventually running around with heavy armor, shield and heavy pack, offset by high ranks in Spellcraft. If that's your intent, cool

I'm inclined to just use a straight DEX check - even though it's certainly not very "magical"! Just be sure to remember the max DEX limits for armor and encumbrance. It's easy enough to convert the ASF% to DC on a 5% to +1 basis (ie, chainmail, at 30%, gives a +6 on the DC). Also impose a (not quite arbitrary) +2 for medium encumbrance, or +4 for heavy enc. Set base DC to 0. Bards get a +4 bonus to their roll as a class feature. Here's a table of modifiers to the DC:

Spoiler:

So, some sample DCs are:

no armor, no enc = DC 0
leather (10% ASF), med enc = DC 2 + 2 = DC 4
padded armor (5% ASF), light enc = DC 1 + 0 = DC 1
chainmail (30%), lt shield (5%), heavy enc = DC 6 + 1 + 4 = DC 11
no armor, heavy enc = DC 0 + 4 = DC 4

This doesn't exactly mimic the ASW% outcomes, but it's more or less level independent: high dex decrease ASF chance, while the additional encumbrance constraint pushes ASF chance back up a little. Allows for a "ditch the pack to lower the DC" tactic.
Problems with this:

it overly rewards high dex (positive modifier) characters, so some characters never suffer ASF for some encumbrance and armor combinations.
it penalizes low dex (negative modifier) characters, because it forces a check for every spell cast by clumsy characters, even if completely naked. This could be handwaved away, I suppose?
char has to track how heavy his pack (or other droppable items) are. Could just rule that dropping the pack lowers DC to just the DC due to armor (even though armor contributes greatly to enc? Oh well, it's not perfect..)

Anyway, that's my thought. I've also thought about adding in a component to ASF related to how many magic items the character is carrying, kind of a magical "interference" to mess up spellcasters

haven't worked it out yet, though.

Dannyalcatraz · 30th June 2009, 02:15 AM

A little more complex idea...

Instead of a Dex check, make it a check vs DC based on a character's Arcane caster levels, with DC bumps based on armor weight class, amount of metal, and maybe even type of material.

That way, its not affected by a stat, and the more powerful the caster, the more likely he is to be able to overcome ASF, but without the ramping up of the Spellcraft skill.

This also means that arcane spellcasting classes that don't get lots of skill points (and who thus might not be able to afford to boost Spellcraft at max rate) or who don't have Int as a casting stat don't get penalized.

Michael Silverbane · 1st July 2009, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

A little more complex idea...

Instead of a Dex check, make it a check vs DC based on a character's Arcane caster levels, with DC bumps based on armor weight class, amount of metal, and maybe even type of material.

That way, its not affected by a stat, and the more powerful the caster, the more likely he is to be able to overcome ASF, but without the ramping up of the Spellcraft skill.

This also means that arcane spellcasting classes that don't get lots of skill points (and who thus might not be able to afford to boost Spellcraft at max rate) or who don't have Int as a casting stat don't get penalized.

Something like a caster level check might be better than a skill check. Various modifiers could be applied to that.

Sylrae · 1st July 2009, 06:42 AM

I like the Caster Level Check. But I think basing it on all the arcane caster levels is better than just using like, the highest one.

I like the_orc_within's DCs, but I think I'll make Encumberance be more. like,
light = 0
medium = 3
heavy = 6

For the arcane caster check, we don't want to just add the caster level, that makes it get too easy, and at 20 you can ignore it completely.

I'm thinking 1/4 Arcane Caster Levels.

so a Wiz20 (or Wiz10/Sorc10, or what have you), gets a +5 to their ASF Checks.

That means they can effectively cast in chainmail or less with only a 5% chance of failure.

Since we're using the d20 mechanic, a 1 is always a fail, regardless.

The only exception, is when carrying a light load and no armor. Then no check has to be made.

The Bard ability doesnt remove the need to do a check for light armor, it as mentioned above, just gives a bonus, so you still fail on a 1, even in padded armor.

Of course, you will always succeed on a 20, no matter how high your DC is.

I'm liking it.

What do you guys think of the amalgamation of your ideas with a little twist from me?

I'm happy with it just not being based on a percentile.

You sure Dex isnt the way to go though? Cause while it does reward a high dex, it makes sense for a character with high dex to be better coordinated in crappy gear...

Dannyalcatraz · 1st July 2009, 08:21 AM

While I had originally intended my suggestion to be an aggregate of all caster levels, multiclassing has shown me it shouldn't quite work that way.

The problem is that a PC who is, say, Wiz20 would have the same bonus to cast in mithril chain as a Wiz10/Bard10...and that's not right, at least not if the spell being cast is a Bard spell.

As for it being a dex check, I know the rule states:

Quote:

Arcane Spell Failure

Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they’re wearing armor. Bards can wear light armor without incurring any arcane spell failure chance for their bard spells.

To me, the armor is not just interfering with the ability to make the gestures, but interacting with the caster's..."aura" or "Kirlian field" or "manaflow." IOW, it interferes with the gestures not only on the physical level, but the metaphysical level as well. Those who have learned to cast in armor haven't just modified their casting gestures, they've modified their minds- possibly by ritual.

Sylrae · 1st July 2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

While I had originally intended my suggestion to be an aggregate of all caster levels, multiclassing has shown me it shouldn't quite work that way.

The problem is that a PC who is, say, Wiz20 would have the same bonus to cast in mithril chain as a Wiz10/Bard10...and that's not right, at least not if the spell being cast is a Bard spell.

Actually, the Wiz10/Bard10 would have a bigger bonus. Though in mithril chain, the Bard/Wiz wouldnt be using all of it. A Bard would still get Armored Caster.

The Question is, do we give the Bard a bonus to all the spellcasting from armored caster, or is bardic magic just easier to cast in armor? If you go route B, then the bard bonus only applies to bard spells, and I think I kinda like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

As for it being a dex check, I know the rule states:

Quote:

Arcane Spell Failure

Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they’re wearing armor. Bards can wear light armor without incurring any arcane spell failure chance for their bard spells.

To me, the armor is not just interfering with the ability to make the gestures, but interacting with the caster's..."aura" or "Kirlian field" or "manaflow." IOW, it interferes with the gestures not only on the physical level, but the metaphysical level as well. Those who have learned to cast in armor haven't just modified their casting gestures, they've modified their minds- possibly by ritual.

That's kindof a cool Idea. but not everyone adds the metaphysical spin on it of "casting in armor takes a different type of energy control." I have a couple players who would likely respond with something like "Then they shouldnt be able to cast while wearing clothes either - because armor is just heavier and more restrictive." and I'm not sure their logic isnt sound.

What makes casting in armor different, than a shirt and pants in regard to chakra interference? Do you make mages pay a fortune for enchanted clothing that doesnt interfere with their casting?

Dannyalcatraz · 1st July 2009, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylrae

Actually, the Wiz10/Bard10 would have a bigger bonus. Though in mithril chain, the Bard/Wiz wouldnt be using all of it. A Bard would still get Armored Caster.

That's kind of my point- a Wiz10/Bard10 shouldn't have to even roll for a Bard spell, but he also shouldn't get the benefit of his Armored Caster for Wiz spells.

IOW, he shouldn't be better at casting Cone of Cold in armor than a Wiz20, should be exactly as good at casting Sleep (Wiz version) as the Wiz, and not have to bother with the check if casting Sleep (Bard version).

Quote:

That's kindof a cool Idea. but not everyone adds the metaphysical spin on it of "casting in armor takes a different type of energy control." I have a couple players who would likely respond with something like "Then they shouldnt be able to cast while wearing clothes either - because armor is just heavier and more restrictive." and I'm not sure their logic isnt sound.

What makes casting in armor different, than a shirt and pants in regard to chakra interference?

Casting in armor doesn't take a different type of control, it requires MORE control. Besides, armor is MUCH heavier and restrictive than most clothing, and is made out of more material than mere clothing as well. Then there is the nature of the material as well- metal would warp the manaflow more than cloth. If it helps, watch one of those videos about how matter warps space & time (you know, with the ball bearing and the bowling ball on the elastic grid?)- clothes are the ball bearing...armor is the bowling ball.

And divine casters ignore all of this because the same divine forces that grant spells also "grant an exception" to the caster.

Quote:

Do you make mages pay a fortune for enchanted clothing that doesnt interfere with their casting?

(emphasis mine)

Now that is an interesting idea- not for the clothes, but for the armor. In addition to special materials, you could also institute a HR for masterwork crafted "arcanist's armor" which is designed to be less restrictive than normal armor of its type. It grants a little less protection (one step) but reduced ASF by 1 step per...4,000gp? And it stacks with special materials, too.

Kerrick · 1st July 2009, 05:06 PM

Latecomer to the thread.

The only reason we have ASF in the first place is because wizards have better spells than everyone else... but clerics being able to wear heavy armor makes them one of the most powerful classes in the game.

What I did for PP is this: ALL spellcasters must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level + armor bonus) to cast in armor, unless you're proficient in it (clerics lose their heavy AP). I chose Concentration vs. Spellcraft because no spellcaster has Con as a casting stat, and it's already used for, well, casting spells under duress. Clerics and paladins still have a slight advantage, but a sor/wiz of high enough level can wear light armor and toss off spells.

Sylrae · 2nd July 2009, 02:20 AM

The "Wizards have better spells than everyone else", kindof makes sense if you only look at core. As soon as you include that massive spellbook, and the FR magic, etc, Clericsa become powerful battle-wizards who can cast in armor, buff themselves like the bard, and fight like the fighter.

Clerics are particularly amazing if you go for planar spells. There are a number of them in the PHB, but if you look at Manual of the Planes, Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Fiend Folios, they become quite scary.

And since playing with only the SRD spells is something I dont enjoy, youve just made me realize that I think I need to look at the spell lists and assemble my own lists of who-gets what...

I kindof like your rule, but I want them to have to make the checks whether proficient in it or not. If theyre not proficient in the armor, the DC should be much higher.

However, Concentration may work as an outlet.

So far we have.

Bonuses:
Concentration Check.
Caster Level Check.
Dex Check.

Dc Adders:
Conversion from spell fail % / Armor Bonus
Encumberment
Spell Level
Nonproficiency Penalties