sorceror/wizard variant(yes it has been done to death)

[bellman]

In my looking over the rules it seems to me the sorceror can basically be put in very simple terms. A spontaneous weakened wizard. I will now attempt to differentiate and balance the two. any comments will be appreciated.

Wizard change:
Book apotheosis:
at level 20, any book described as the wizard's spellbook becomes weightless. It may be summoned to the owner at will.

Sorceror changes:
loss of familiar.
loss of magical affinity.
add skill: intimidate.
loss of bonus spells per day based on charisma.
spell like abilities instead of spells:
this essentially means a few changes:
cannot counterspell with standard method, or be counterspelled.
cannot craft or use magic items requiring spells.
cannot scribe scrolls.
does not use the components* listed but:
needs a focus to use powers, whether it is magic words, gestures, or an inexpensive trinket. once chosen, this cannot be changed, if trinket is lost a new one can be purchased for 100 gp, focus CANNOT be removed with feats.
*only ignores material components worth 10 gp or less.
Magical nature:
when detect magic is cast, the sorceror registers as a magic item of his caster level.
Domain:
at the beginning of each day choose a wizard domain(unearthed arcana).
you can use each SLA of the spell level you can cast once per day. in addition, you gain physical features and a granted power based on your domain. you may use each SLA an additional time each 10th level. no metamagic may be applied to these SLAs.

Abjuration:
feature:
you look more well built and muscular. this has no in game effect.
power:
choose an abjuration SLA you can use. you count as having the benefit of having this SLA activated on you.

Antimagic:
feature:
your skin seems to have a reflective-mirrorlike quality.
power:
gain spell resistance equal to charisma modifier.

Battle:
feature:
your face gains battle scars.
power:
you may use spell rage a number of times equal to that of a barbarian of half your class level uses basic rage.

cold:
feature:
your eyes become light blue, and the air around you chills.
power:
you may freeze liquid that is not a part of a living being within a 10 by 10 area. you are comfortable in very hot temperatures, as per endure elements

conjuration:
feature:
tattoos of creatures adorn your skin.
power:
you may summon edible food and water at will, as per summon food and drink.

divination:
feature:
you gain wrinkles and a wisened look.
power:
you gain bardic knowledge.

enchantment:
feature:
your features become more pronounced and beautiful.
power:
you add 3 to the results of charisma checks.

evocation:
feature:
your skin seems to glow with energy.
power:
you gain an arcane bolt which is treated as an eldritch blast from a warlock of half your class level, doing elemental damage based on your draconic heritage ex. blue dragon heritage = electricity damage.

fire:
feature:
your eyes become red, and the air around you warms.
power:
when trying to break an object apply charisma instead of strength. instead of splintering, the object melts. you are comfortable in cold temperatures, as per endure elements.

illusion:
feature:
your features become hard to distinguish with a glance.
power:
once per day when an attack would bring you below 1 hp, you may declare that you faked being hit, and cancel the attack.

necromancy:
feature:
your skin becomes pale, and you are gaunt and skeletal.
power:
you can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of half your class level.

storm:
feature:
your eyes are filled with lightning, and your hair and clothes ruffle in an imaginary breeze.
power:
you may fly with poor manueverability at half your land speed.

transmutation:
feature:
until manifesting your power, no change.
power:
you may transform into a draconic form as a full round action. while transformed you gain a 2d6 bite attack and 1d10 claw attacks. you may attack with both claws in one action at -5 penalty to hit. in addition you gain scales, which equate to dr1/magic at first level and 1 additional damage reduction every 5th level. while transformed you take a -10 penalty to non-intimidate charisma checks. you may end the transformation as another full round action.

so what do you think? balanced, or should i change it? go easy on me, this is my first post and i'm new to d&d.

[bellman]

you could hear a pin drop in here. seriously anyone gonna view this. i want some comments to know if this is balanced.

[bellman]

if noone is commenting then does that mean it's balanced? does it mean it is overpowered? or does it mean it's too weak? tell me people, i want feedbback!

[Nellisir]

I think allowing a little more than two hours for a response would be nice.

Just glancing over it, I'm not particularly impressed by changes to the sorcerer; it's all sort of "meh". It's also a little vague. Can a sorcerer with the cold domain freeze all the water in the ocean? Cause that's how it reads right now.

[Nonlethal Force]

Originally Posted by Nellisir

I think allowing a little more than two hours for a response would be nice.

Yeah, especially in the 3.x variant forums. Sometimes replies take a few days....

Originally Posted by Nellisir

Just glancing over it, I'm not particularly impressed by changes to the sorcerer; it's all sort of "meh".

I agree. I'm not sure that making the sorcerer into a SLA character is really the way to go. And only being able to "cast" Domain spells 1/day up to the level known is a bit weak for me. Seeing as how limited this is compared to even wizard casting it comes off as even more weak.

For the record, I'd also recommend not using the word "cast" when you specifically state that sorcerers get SLA instead of spells. It's just a bit confusing.

Also, the loss of metamagic really hurts. That one is pretty much a deal-breaker for me, too. If nothing else, it really removes the chance to get into a few PrCs because they can't fulfill the prereqs.

And, the fact tat it uses a focus instead of spell components could give them a big upgrade in higher level spells. Spell Components are often part of the game balance at higher level. Perhaps eliminating the spell component for components less than 1 gp butrequiringthe more expensive ones is morethe way to go?

Add these to the thoughts expressed about the agueness above by Nellisir.

A good thought, but it isn't really what I would go for in gaming. Perhaps with a bitmore refining it could grow into something, though. Keep trying!

[bellman]

all right then, i'll try to refine them. thanks for the comments. by the way for any one reading this i could use some help with a table. and nonlethal force, the loss of metamagic only applies to the spell-like abilities granted by the domain, i'm thinking this sorceror could get variant "metamagic" feats for it's regular abilities. in addition, it states you an use your SLAs from domains an additional time each every 10th level.

[Nonlethal Force]

Originally Posted by bellman

i could use some help with a table.

The easiest wayto makea table is to use the code function and count spaces. The code tag makes every character the same width, so you can line things up nicely. And if you have access to a word processor that "counts columns" (most do) you can type your table into something like Word using spaces to separate the various columns. Once you have all of your columns of the table all set, just cut and paste within the code tag.

Originally Posted by bellman

and nonlethal force, the loss of metamagic only applies to the spell-like abilities granted by the domain, i'm thinking this sorceror could get variant "metamagic" feats for it's regular abilities. in addition, it states you an use your SLAs from domains an additional time each every 10th level.

I am aware you get to use the SLA's an additional time every 10 levels. So at 10th level you get 2 times and at 20th level you get 3? That still doesn't quite feel balanced against a sorceror who cast cast 6 spells per spell level known. Or am I misreading something?

If so, then I apologize. But my take on your class is that the sorceror loses all ability to cast spells and in its place it gains the ability to pick 1 domain per day and can use each spell in the domain 1/day. It just seems really underpowered - even at level 20.

[bellman]

he can use his standard SLAs as much as a standard sorceror, as well as his domain SLAs as many times as i described. in other words he gains domain casting in addition to regular casting

[Nellisir]

What's the point of spell-like abilities instead of spells? The only advantage you have listed is that they can't be counterspelled...but then again, they can't counterspell anyone else, either. That's a draw at best. If you start adding in custom feats to allow the sorcerer to do the same things with SLAs they can already do with spells, then it just gets needlessly complex. Leave the spells as spells, and give sorcerers a "resistant to counterspelling" special ability - sorcerers gain a +4 bonus to resist counterspelling attempts due to their unique and individual approaches to spellcasting.

[bellman]

some thoughts nelliser, one, dispel magic can still be used to counterspell, two, you expect a man with no formal training in magic to learn the complicated procceses behind casting even the simplest spells?(on that note, i should remove knowledge:arcana as a class skill), on the otherhand, losing the ability to counterspell the standard way is big, although if i were to use your method i would have to say they also get a -4 penelty when counterspelling, because sorcerors are not used to the standard method of casting, and would have trouble working with it. would you simply be appeased if i changed the antimagic power to include "you may counterspell as a wizard may"?

[Nellisir]

Originally Posted by bellman

some thoughts nelliser, one, dispel magic can still be used to counterspell, two, you expect a man with no formal training in magic to learn the complicated procceses behind casting even the simplest spells? would you simply be appeased if i changed the antimagic power to include "you may counterspell as a wizard may"?

Well, don't get me wrong: you don't have to appease me. My primary concern is one of simplicity. Right now it looks like you've got a good concept (spells are innate), but the mechanical execution is complex. That's partially an artifact of the system, but you also have to look at whether the concept really needs that complexity to work. Making sorcerer spells spell-like abilities sets up a parallel and nearly identical system of spellcasting to that of the standard wizard, which isn't particularly efficient.

Second, what you think of how spells are learned and cast is one of your assumptions that might not hold true for other people. Sorcerers and wizards might not cast spells the same way. Maybe sorcerers cast spells in Hebrew, and wizards cast in Latin. Maybe wizards have to spend all that time studying to learn how to mimic the complicated processes sorcerers automatically know - maybe sorcerers are "magic-savants", who are able to see a spell and automatically understand how to cast it. Maybe the words and gestures are simple, and the real magic is simply "in the blood" - wizards have a little, sorcerers have a lot. In other words, I don't have to justifiy how a person with no formal training masters complex spell formula because I don't assume a person needs complex spell formula to cast a spell.

[bellman]

counter-points nellisir.

1. please explain to me how this is complex, because i don't understand you. and i don't see SLAs being similar to spells.

2. i based this off the stereotypical wizards and sorcerors as i see them. we all now what the stereotypical wizard is, he's the man who was educated from a young age to learn how to take a piece of reality, rip it apart, and put it back as he sees fit, and i see that as being very complex to learn, because if it wasn't, then there would be a lot more wizards. the sorceror is according to the flavor text, someone who at a certain age, learned he could control magic, just as easily as we an breathe. and i always saw the incantations as some fictional language, that was created by the first gods, along with the weave, the weave being created to hold the universe together so that they didn't have to bother and could focus on other things, and the incantations to help them control it. thats just how i see it.

3. you are entitled to your opinions. in fact, the forum was created for that purpose. this variant was created so others could gain ideas from it. if you like the idea, the why don't you help me expand it?

[Nellisir]

Originally Posted by bellman

1. please explain to me how this is complex, because i don't understand you. and i don't see SLAs being similar to spells.

Creating a second set of metamagic feats, that are identical to the first set except they affect spell-like abilities instead of spells, adds complexity.

The effect of a SLA is identical to the effect of a spell. If a sorcerer and wizard both cast magic missile, they both have the same effect. Ditto fireball. Ditto stone to flesh. Ditto light. Etc and so forth. If they weren't similar, you'd have to write up fifty pages of spell-like ability descriptions.

2. i based this off the stereotypical wizards and sorcerors as i see them. we all now what the stereotypical wizard is, he's the man who was educated from a young age to learn how to take a piece of reality, rip it apart, and put it back as he sees fit, and i see that as being very complex to learn, because if it wasn't, then there would be a lot more wizards. the sorceror is according to the flavor text, someone who at a certain age, learned he could control magic, just as easily as we an breathe. and i always saw the incantations as some fictional language, that was created by the first gods, along with the weave, the weave being created to hold the universe together so that they didn't have to bother and could focus on other things, and the incantations to help them control it. thats just how i see it.

OK, that's fine. But those are assumptions that other people might not hold, so you're better off explaining them and not assuming that everyone thinks just like you. The "weave" is Forgotten Realms terminology; many people don't use the weave at all in their campaign world.

3. you are entitled to your opinions. in fact, the forum was created for that purpose. this variant was created so others could gain ideas from it. if you like the idea, the why don't you help me expand it?

Frankly, I'm not quite sure what to say. You asked for feedback; I'm giving you some. I've already combined the 3e sorcerer & wizard into one class in my game, so I haven't got any need or interest in writing a new sorcerer, but I'm willing to help other people improve theirs.

I'm pretty certain we've reached the end of the road here, though, so good luck and keep working on it!

[Quartz]

Who'd want to be a Sorcerer? Really, you're completely nerfing the class. SR equal to Charisma mod? What use is that at 20th level?

[Hawken]

I'm only here because there's no other activity in this forum, but I'll take a look:

Balanced? No.

Should you change it? Yes.

First, why that stuff about the wizard anyway? And for 20th level that's pretty weak stuff. Spellbooks have never encumbered wizards to my knowledge, even back in the glory days of 1e where I've known wizards with a 5 str! As for summoning them, again, for 20th level, that's kind of lame. If a 1st level wizard can summon a monster from another part of the world, or another plane (Summon Monster), calling his spellbook back to him shouldn't be much different. I suppose nobody has bothered to create that spell or ability because most DMs aren't going to screw with a wizard's book unless there's a scene in an adventure where they don't want them casting spells.

I don't really understand the reasoning behind the change to SLA from spells. To what end? Nor do I understand why the sorcerer radiates magic where no other spellcaster does. Even other races that have SLAs (such as Drow) do not radiate magic when someone is detecting.

I think the appearance change is too much. You start getting more than one sorcerer in the same room and its like, "Oh, you're well built and muscular too. You must be focused in Abjuration also!" What's the point?

Others have hit on the counterspelling, so I'm not going to say anything there.

Why can't they create magic items? According to your change, sorcerers are now magical beings, why couldn't they pour some of that power into an item?

What "magical affinity" are they losing? I don't remember seeing anything like that in the PHB.

Why do they get intimidate now? How do they suddenly know how to be scary and unnerving?

I get that you don't want them using components (of 10gp or less value), but why do they HAVE to have a focus? If they don't even use spells anymore what is a focus going to do? Also, you may not realize this, but a focus cripples them if they cannot cast their spells without it. A fighter can always get a new sword, wizards can get spell mastery, rogue's can sneak attack with anything, but if you make this sorcerer have to have a focus to cast their spells, once that focus is gone, they are effectively helpless and can no longer contribute tp (or have fun with) the game.

Also, why do they HAVE to have domains? Why can't a sorcerer be 'domain-less' or just not have an area of specialty? You should offer this as an option instead of forcing players that want this class to choose something they don't like or like less than other options.

If you are going to do this domain stuff, you need to better define the abilities. You also need to make them worth having. Poor Fly speed at 1/2 land speed is crap and pretty much only useful to keep someone from falling off a cliff or down a pit. I'm sure it may be helpful in other areas, but someone just looking at that isn't going to want that power.

The SR thing for anti-magic: That's a pretty damn big power. But SR of 5 or so isn't even going to protect you from a 1st level wizard. A decent alternative would be to give them SR against a spell or magical effect a number of times per day equal to their Cha modifiier where SR equals 10 + character level.

If someone specializes in conjuration, why can they only summon food and water? Admittedly useful in non-combat settings, but a few ranks in Survival and you're good to go.

Spell Rage? What's that? It's not core. Anything not core, you need to define because even if it is in another supplement, maybe you've got a different idea of what this is.

The illusion power, redo it. That is an automatic rescue against any single attack which is damn powerful. Think of the bad guy having that and how much damage he could do to the party if he could have that power! And why the restriction that it only works on attacks that reduce below 1hp. I'd be more concerned about the hit that drops me from 80hp to 25hp rather than the one that takes me from 12hp to 0hp. If they can avoid one attack, it should be any attack they want.

Fire: Kind of convoluted. Just give them the Fire subtype a number of times per day or maybe extra fire damage on a spell or something.

I'm not going to go into the others. You've got some decent ideas, but you've got to put some more time into this. All the special powers need to be kind of balanced (in relation to other granted powers), and they should be something that a PC would want or find interesting.

[Megahedron]

It blatantly says in a 10x10 area. Also, the evoker is setting up to be rigged .