D&D 3rd Edition House RulesPost your house rules, custom classes, spells, feats and other stuff here. For D&D 3rd Edition and all older editions of D&D.
Instead of using LA, My thought is Making Races + Racial Classes. The Race is going to be an ECL 0 Race. The Class should be roughly on par with standard classes for power.
Basic Rules: Use Upper Krust's CR System to assess Power. The Race should be between .3 and .5 in value the Class should be around 1.1672 Per level on average All Racial drawbacks have to be taken up front.
For racial Abilities, Try to pick the most logical ones for the ECL +0 Race You can give the ECL 0 race weaker versions of the final powers. SR could be a Save Bonus v magic for example. Then replace the bonus at a higher level.
The Class follows standard class rules, not like Savage Species. IE: Hd at every Level, BAB following actual progressions, Skill Points Every Level. The number of HD Doesnt have to match the Monster Manual, Just make the levels match up in value for balancing purposes. The MM says the Minotaur is worth a Level 8. I got him to a 7 with an extra HD and Skills. He was a bit too powerful with all the racial abilities spread over less than 7 levels.
You don't have to take all your racial levels, and you don't have to take them first.
Racial Classes Don't Give Experience Penalties.
In Higher Level Games, DMs could rule that you have to take X Racial Levels.
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I'm using the Minotaur as my example.
Let me know what you guys think.
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Minotaur: :):):):) Level Adjustments!
Monster Manual
Hit Points: 6d8 (6 to 48)
BAB 6
Ability Point Mods: +8 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
Large Size
Space/Reach 10
Speed 30
Darkvision 60
Fort +2
Ref +5
Will +5
Feats 3
Skills 9x(2+Int)
Skill Bonus: +4 Search, Spot, Listen
Weapon Proficiency: Greataxe, Simple
+5 Natural Armor
1d8 Gore Attack
Powerful Charge
Natural CUnning
Scent
LA +2
Class Skills: Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot.
Via MM & LA, Level 8.
According to Upper Krust's CR System
Minotaur: 8.68 > 7 > 6
+Golden Rule: If Class Levels and HD don't make up at least half the Monster's CR, use the CR for the class levels and HD, double it, and halve any excess CR beyond that.
+Silver Rule: If the Monster does not have PC quality Gear, multiply the CR by 0.85
My Thoughts:
Make an ECL 0 Race.
Make a decent melee class for the Minotaur similar to the Monster Class.
The Below Uses Upper Krust's System for the Values. It has no Level Adjust. Just a Class.
Any of the class levels can be taken any time by a Minotaur.
Minotaur:
Race: (Between 0.3 and 0.5)
+2 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha -0.2
Large Size +0.0
-1 AC -0.1
-1 Attack -0.1
10 Foot Reach +0.2
10 Foot space -0.1
+4 Grapple/Improved Carrying +0.1
Darkvision +0.2
Scent +0.2
Gore +0.225
Skill Bonus +2 to Search, Listen, and Spot +0.12
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+0.545
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant
Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran
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Racial Class: (3.5e Core Classes average 1.1672/level)
Class Skills: Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot. +0.005/Level
HD: d8 +0.15/Level
BAB: As Fighter +0.2/Level
Skill Points: 2+int(x4 at level 1) +0.023/Level
Bad Fort +0.03/Level
Good Ref +0.06/Level
Good Will +0.06/Level
Standard Feats +0.0766/Level
standard Ability Scores +0.05/Level
standard Attacks +0.025/Level
Standard Gear +0.2/Level
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+0.8796/Level
+6.1572 (7 Levels)
Things to Include:
+6 Str +0.6
+2 Con +0.2
+5 Natural Armor +0.5
Powerful Charge +0.7
Natural Cunning +0.2
Weapon Proficiencies +0.01
-----
+2.21
Level Base Cost Features Cost Overall Total / Standard Value
1 +0.8796 Weapon Proficiencies +0.01
Natural Cunning +0.20
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+0.21 1.0896 / 1.1672
2 +1.7592 1 Natural Armor +0.10
2 Str +0.20
-----
+0.30 2.0592 / 2.3344
3 +2.6388 1 Natural Armor +0.10
2 Con +0.20
-----
+0.30 3.2388 / 3.5016
4 +3.5184 1 Natural Armor +0.10
2 Str +0.20
-----
+0.30 1.4184 / 4.6688
5 +4.3980 1 Natural Armor +0.10
2 Str +0.20
-----
+0.30 5.5980 / 5.836
6 +5.2776 1 Natural Armor +0.10
-----
+0.10 6.8776 / 7.0032
7 +6.1572 Powerful Charge +0.70
-----
+0.70 8.3572 / 8.1704
Hmm. All these columns line up nicely in notepad. If ssomeone can get this formatting to work super. for now ill attach the txt.
That is way to complicated. The LA on most monsters is correct. The problem is that racial HD is treated as class levels. The best approach is to give your monster the ECL you think it deserves.
The issue that may come up is that an ability that is useful at a lower level may not be useful later so you may want to use the unearthed arcana method of buying off level adjustments.
You could also just break monster down into class levels. Libris Mortis, and Savage Species* do this. You could go off of those examples.
The OP's example seems like an extremely convoluted way of saying "Let's just re-evaluate the ECL of each monster and re-design a savage progression for every one of them.
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That is way to complicated. The LA on most monsters is correct. The problem is that racial HD is treated as class levels. The best approach is to give your monster the ECL you think it deserves.
Or alternatively, continue to treat 1 racial HD as 1 class lv, but revise the LAs so that their ECL serves as a more accurate indicator of how useful that monster is relative to other PCs of that lv.
For example, in the case of a gnoll, I would recommend either doing away with its LA of +1 or its 2 humanoid HD (prefer the latter, since this allows your gnoll PC to mimic a gnoll npc stat-wise, but it sucks if you are taking a class with a lot of skill points). This should put it roughly on par with the goliath, power-wise.
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is essentially what Monte Cook did for racial classes in Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved...and it works extremely well.
The game is worth picking up, BTW, for that and all the other really good ideas in its pages- variable level spells, alternative spell effects based on alternative components, etc.
That is way to complicated. The LA on most monsters is correct.
This isn't a quick and dirty way to guesstimate whether or not a monster isgood for a player at a given level. This is more like, racial class design, to make a race be functionally playable, and be quite sure it's on par with other classes. If you're using pathfinder classes, everything tends to be a little bit more powerful, but once HOW MUCH more powerful is actually calculated, tweaking the racial classes to match it becomes easy. It's more of a "What do you think of the idea of designing monsters like this instead?" Obviously you can't convert every monster on the fly, at least not without some sort of tool/calculator (A tool would make this much easier/faster). That minotaur took me a half-hour.
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Originally Posted by concerro
The problem is that racial HD is treated as class levels. The best approach is to give your monster the ECL you think it deserves.
You are quite right on this one that is one of the big problems, and if you look at Upper Krust's LA System, he shows what each Kind of Monster HD is actually worth in terms of levels. Most are worth between .3 and .7 of a level. However, just accurately guaging the power of a monster doesn't necessarily make it playable. But if you want to see accurate challenge ratings and see the system to evaluate them accurately, look at Uppeer Krust's book. Hell, it works great for designing class levels too.
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Originally Posted by concerro
The issue that may come up is that an ability that is useful at a lower level may not be useful later so you may want to use the unearthed arcana method of buying off level adjustments.
That is true, the abilities are often less useful at the uppser levels, but also, at low levels, before you CAN buy anything off, the lost hit points, saves, skills, and feats make you weaker than an equivalent ECL +0 Race, in your frailness particularly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by concerro
You could also just break monster down into class levels. Libris Mortis, and Savage Species* do this. You could go off of those examples.
I am not sure if Savage Species does or not.
The way it is done in Libris Mortis and Savage species make classes that are worse than standard classes, and they don't have a base-race for an ECL 0 case, so you have to take levels in the class before anything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runestar
The OP's example seems like an extremely convoluted way of saying "Let's just re-evaluate the ECL of each monster and re-design a savage progression for every one of them.
Hmm. Sortof. You'll notice the class functions like an actual class, and you don't get screwed out of your skills, feats, and HD like you do in savage species. Additionally, Neither of those allow you to play the monster before you take any of the class levels IIRC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runestar
Or alternatively, continue to treat 1 racial HD as 1 class lv, but revise the LAs so that their ECL serves as a more accurate indicator of how useful that monster is relative to other PCs of that lv.
For example, in the case of a gnoll, I would recommend either doing away with its LA of +1 or its 2 humanoid HD (prefer the latter, since this allows your gnoll PC to mimic a gnoll npc stat-wise, but it sucks if you are taking a class with a lot of skill points). This should put it roughly on par with the goliath, power-wise.
You could Allow players to drop the class levels and take the LA, but the issue I've found is that the LA levels don't tend to be as useful as class levels after a while, and the lost hit points, skill points, and feats can be fatal at low levels. This alternative is to make the monsters be of comparable power as PCs the whole way up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is essentially what Monte Cook did for racial classes in Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved...and it works extremely well.
I heard he did something like this, but I haven't seen it to see the particulars. I got the Idea from how they did the core Races in World of Warcraft d20, where the races have a base-race, then a totally optional racial class. Like a Paragon class. then I thought, what if I did regular monsters like that, then it would be easy if one of my players wanted to play a monster (I find they very, very often want to play some monster race or another, I rarely have more than once player who wants to play an LA+0 race in a game). Having seen Upper Krust's CR Guide, it was an obvious way to balance it.
I figured I would get some useful critiques, and then take a stab at converting monsters, while leaving the rules on how to design them for if anyone else wanted to use them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz
The game is worth picking up, BTW, for that and all the other really good ideas in its pages- variable level spells, alternative spell effects based on alternative components, etc.
Does Arcana Evolved have a Monster Manual that has this kind of race + racial class setup for the SRD Monsters, Or does it just do a few of them?
Now that it's a bit better explained, can someone give a critique of the idea, or tell me if monte cook covered it for the SRD Monsters already and saved alot of work?
The good news is that MC did it for several races.
The bad news is that he only did it for the unique races that appear in the main book- there isn't really a MM for AU/AE.
However, looking at those classes could give you a good insight as to how to balance things.
My starting point, when I do such classes for my campaigns, is look at creature type. Some, but not all, have particular HD types, unusual save bonuses, vulnerabilities and immunities, and so forth.
My general rule of thumb after that is +1LA = +1 Racial class level.
For unusual stat adjustments, I try to spread positive adjustments over several levels. For instance, a Githzerai with a +6 Dex adjustment would get +2Dex as its base bonus, +2 in its 1st RCL, and +2 Dex in its 2nd RCL. Negative stat adjustments are front loaded- it usually doesn't make much sense for an adventurer to get stupider as he gains XP.
Really, though, most of them get pretty easy to figure out. If its a monster you've seen done up in another source like Savage Species, all you need to do is a little tweeking.
Yeah, that's basically what I figured. If he hasn't done the SRD Monsters though, they still need to be done before they can be usable. :P
I think I need to evaluate the CRs of the Pathfinder classes to get an average CR to base each monster level on.
I did the above based on 3.5e sources, but that was because I was using a 3.5e MM. When I get my Pathfinder MM in a couple weeks, most monsters will be using that system.
I plan on making Monster Races and classes and then putting them online.
The Idea, as mentioned is similar to savage species, but the class should give the same benefits every standard class does, and you shouldn't have to take every level of it.
Also, I agree it's pretty easy to figure out. You can rough it out in your head, and you can get a more precise judgment of class power using UK's system.
For Monsters with higher HD then they should have, giving them an HD suitable for their abilities could work better than having an inflated number of d6's.
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Is there any interest in this sort of idea? Expanding the CR Rules, and simplifying their presentation? An Automated tool to calculate race + class like this? SRD Monsters compiled and converted using a system like this?
(If people want an archive of revised monsters, then having a few people help me would speed things up).
I'd have to agree - you're making this far too complicated. Just go to an ECL-based system; it's a lot easier and more accurate. Minotaurs are ECL 6, so a minotaur PC with 1 level is ECL 7. See? Simple. All you do is give them what's listed in the book, add the ECL to their class levels, and you're good to go.
(In case you're wondering, I've converted all the monsters to the ECL-based system, here.)
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
Last edited by Kerrick; 4th October 2009 at 05:28 PM..
Reason: Stupid case-sensitive links
That sortof works (Minotaur ECL becomes 7 if they have PC Equipment.) That's how I'm getting the total ECL to begin with, but it still doesn't make them playable at lower levels.
This would make the monsters playable from level 1. It also means you could easily run a lesser version of the standard monster against a weaker party.
I plan on making Monster Races and classes and then putting them online.
Cool!
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The Idea, as mentioned is similar to savage species, but the class should give the same benefits every standard class does, and you shouldn't have to take every level of it.
<snip>
For Monsters with higher HD then they should have, giving them an HD suitable for their abilities could work better than having an inflated number of d6's.
That is exactly what Monte did.
Quote:
Is there any interest in this sort of idea? Expanding the CR Rules, and simplifying their presentation? An Automated tool to calculate race + class like this? SRD Monsters compiled and converted using a system like this?
(If people want an archive of revised monsters, then having a few people help me would speed things up).
What do you all think?
I think its a winner and if someone had done it as a pro-level product, I'd have bought it.
I suggest you concentrate on races suitable to be used for PCs first, then expand into a method for having creatures of varying levels across the board.
Fair enough. I plan on using the Pathfinder SRD Monsters to do it, then any SRD monsters that aren't in the Pathfinder MM. I'll probably convert over some monsters from the SRD before the Pathfinder one comes out, and I just might keep mine if there isn't a signifixant change. I'll put those in a pdf (Plus a conversion guide at the back -Expanded on Upper Krust's system, assuming it would be redistributable, I'd have to look into that- for doing other monsters). Mayhaps see about publishing it on rpgnow or something. That would be interesting.
What do you guys think about this version of the Minotaur?
I wrote it up so that it could be played at levels 1-6. I tried to break down their abilities so that even racial abilities are not front loaded.
Minotaur Race/Class
Ability Scores: Strength +8, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -2.
Large Size.
Space/Reach: 10’ square, 5’ reach.
Base Speed: 30’
Darkvision: 60’
Natural Weapons: Slam (1d6) or Gore (1d8)
Weapon Proficiency: Greataxe and all Simple Weapons.
Natural Armor: +3.
Armor Proficiency: None.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant.
Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Ranger or Barbarian, selected at 1st level.
HD: D8
Skills: 2 + Int modifier (X4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival.
BAB: +1 per level.
Good Saves: Fort.
Poor Saves: Ref and Will.
Powerful Charge I-III: When making a charge attack, the Minotaur gains a +3 bonus to his attack roll and on a hit, inflicts the listed damage + 1hp per BAB modifier. This special attack may be done a number of times per encounter equal to the numeral listed (I = 1/encounter, II = 2/encounter, etc.). Awkward Brawn: The Minotaur is not fully used to his strength or reach. The Minotaur does not apply his racial Strength bonus to his attack or damage rolls, but he does apply the full amount for all non-combat applications of Strength. The Minotaur may make a Reach 10’ attack as a full attack action or with his Powerful Charge. Feat: The Minotaur gains a feat as any 1st level character does. He gains another feat at 3rd and 6th levels. Natural Armor: At 2nd level, the Minotaur’s Natural Armor bonus increases by +1 to a total of +4. At 4th level, the bonus increases by +2 to a total racial Natural Armor bonus of +5. Scent: The Minotaur’s senses have developed to the point of having the Scent ability. The Minotaur also gains a +1 bonus to Listen, Search and Spot checks. This bonus increases by +1 per level until it reaches a total +4 bonus at 5th level. Brawn: The Minotaur may apply the listed number of points of his racial Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Natural Cunning: The Minotaur gains his Natural Cunning racial ability. Reach: At 4th level, the Minotaur increases his Reach to 10’ for any and all attacks it makes. Powerful Charge X: The Minotaur may use his Powerful Charge at will, so long as he is able to make a charge.
What do you guys think about this version of the Minotaur?
I wrote it up so that it could be played at levels 1-6. I tried to break down their abilities so that even racial abilities are not front loaded.
Minotaur Race/Class
Ability Scores: Strength +8, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -2.
Large Size.
Space/Reach: 10’ square, 5’ reach.
Base Speed: 30’
Darkvision: 60’
Natural Weapons: Slam (1d6) or Gore (1d8)
Weapon Proficiency: Greataxe and all Simple Weapons.
Natural Armor: +3.
Armor Proficiency: None.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant.
Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Ranger or Barbarian, selected at 1st level.
HD: D8
Skills: 2 + Int modifier (X4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival.
BAB: +1 per level.
Good Saves: Fort.
Poor Saves: Ref and Will.
Powerful Charge I-III: When making a charge attack, the Minotaur gains a +3 bonus to his attack roll and on a hit, inflicts the listed damage + 1hp per BAB modifier. This special attack may be done a number of times per encounter equal to the numeral listed (I = 1/encounter, II = 2/encounter, etc.). Awkward Brawn: The Minotaur is not fully used to his strength or reach. The Minotaur does not apply his racial Strength bonus to his attack or damage rolls, but he does apply the full amount for all non-combat applications of Strength. The Minotaur may make a Reach 10’ attack as a full attack action or with his Powerful Charge. Feat: The Minotaur gains a feat as any 1st level character does. He gains another feat at 3rd and 6th levels. Natural Armor: At 2nd level, the Minotaur’s Natural Armor bonus increases by +1 to a total of +4. At 4th level, the bonus increases by +2 to a total racial Natural Armor bonus of +5. Scent: The Minotaur’s senses have developed to the point of having the Scent ability. The Minotaur also gains a +1 bonus to Listen, Search and Spot checks. This bonus increases by +1 per level until it reaches a total +4 bonus at 5th level. Brawn: The Minotaur may apply the listed number of points of his racial Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Natural Cunning: The Minotaur gains his Natural Cunning racial ability. Reach: At 4th level, the Minotaur increases his Reach to 10’ for any and all attacks it makes. Powerful Charge X: The Minotaur may use his Powerful Charge at will, so long as he is able to make a charge.
Soo.. Your minotaur class gets ALL of his attribute bonuses at start game?
What do you do if the Minotaur's player wants his first level to be in Barbarian/Fighter (instead of his first level in Minotaur)? (This is the reason for a basic Race, before Racial Class Levels.)
Have you thought about balance if the character took one or two levels of the Minotaur Class and then just took Regular Classes? Would they be overpowered from how you frontloaded the ability scores?
Your Strength limiter and Reach Limiter would make things a little less overpowered, but I don't know how much.
Soo.. Your minotaur class gets ALL of his attribute bonuses at start game?
Yeah. He has a net -2, not counting Strength. And, as mentioned, the combat applications of his Strength do not apply right off the bat. You seem hesitant with the "Soo...", but I don't see why. His Strength, for purposes of combat, would be no different than any other character.
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What do you do if the Minotaur's player wants his first level to be in Barbarian/Fighter (instead of his first level in Minotaur)? (This is the reason for a basic Race, before Racial Class Levels.)
If he wants his first class level to be Barbarian or Fighter, fine. He can take it after taking 6 Minotaur levels and getting his 7th character level.
Your language seems like you don't like this idea much. Yet, it neatly does away with Level Adjustment altogether. Having the character take mandatory levels in "Minotaur" is a pretty small price to pay for being able to play a Minotaur at all without all the crap that comes with level adjustment and racial HD.
With 6 racial HD and an LA +2, you're playing an 8th level character as a straight out of the MM Minotaur, or 9th, if you give him that one class level. With mine, the Minotaur can be played as early as 1st level, and can start taking class levels at 7th instead of 9th, and its still the same monster.
Plus, it is at a comparable power level to any other 1st level race/class combination. Its powerful charge (2d6) is about the same as sneak attacking with a short sword (1d6+1d6), but is much more limited in scope and frequency of use. It gains a HD at each level, so you don't need to dumb down the race and play it as a 3rd level character (1 class level + 2LA) with only 1 HD.
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Have you thought about balance if the character took one or two levels of the Minotaur Class and then just took Regular Classes? Would they be overpowered from how you frontloaded the ability scores?
Yes, I thought about "balance" by making the character take all 6 levels BEFORE class levels, and that neatly avoids that problem.
The ability scores are front loaded, but actually getting their full benefit is not. Let's say its allowed to "dip" into this class. They do it for 2 levels. Are ability scores frontloaded? Only as much as they are for any other race like Dwarf, Elf, Drow, Halfling, etc.
They would have a -6 to mental stats (-4 Int, -2 Cha), and a +6 effective bonus to physical stats (+4 Con, +2 (effective) Str). That's a total +0 overall modifier. While their racial +8 to Str is reflected in ability checks, skill checks, and carrying capacity, this is as much a reflection of their size; they still only get to use +2 of the +8 bonus for combat. I wouldn't call that overpowered at all. Plus, their powerful charge is doing roughly half damage, they don't get their full Str bonus to combat, their natural armor is not at its best, they don't have their natural cunning or their reach either.
I don't see how its not fair ("fair" seems a better term than "balance" to me).
Hmm. You make a good point, it's definitely a good alternative to the standard HD + LA.
I was doing it the way I did it so the player could easily decide whether they go for the whole set of abilities or just some of them, without any fairness issues.
That's why there is a base-race, plus a number of levels of equivalent power to a standard class.
The class levels are completely optional, and if you choose to take them all, you dont have to take them first.
The concept of a base race is broken--unless you are using a 0 HD, LA 0 race. Anything else, and it doesn't work well. We've already covered the merits and demerits of the LA concept so I won't repeat that here.
Dumbing down Minotaur to a 0 HD LA 0 race makes it less than a Minotaur--in fact, it would be a Minotaur in appearance only as it would have nothing of the traits or features that one associates with Minotaurs. And allowing it to neglect its "race levels" makes it even less of whatever race it is and more just any other character that just happens to look like the monster it is modeled after.
I believe my concept does away with those problems. Minotaurs are monsters. They are meant to be monsters. If you want to civilize them enough that they are a playable race, then my method is the best. I would even suggest removing any mention of class or even levels for my Minotaur, and just set up the XP chart. When the Minotaur reaches "X" XP, it gains the next set of HD, skills, BAB, Saves and racial abilities. It would not have any classes or class levels, or be eligible to take class levels until it reached its peak at 6HD (and everything else that comes along with it at that point).
The concept of a base race is broken--unless you are using a 0 HD, LA 0 race. Anything else, and it doesn't work well. We've already covered the merits and demerits of the LA concept so I won't repeat that here.
The concept of a base race is that you're MAKING a 0HD, 0 LA Race. And then all of the other racial abilities are gained over the racial levels.
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Originally Posted by Hawken
Dumbing down Minotaur to a 0 HD LA 0 race makes it less than a Minotaur--in fact, it would be a Minotaur in appearance only as it would have nothing of the traits or features that one associates with Minotaurs. And allowing it to neglect its "race levels" makes it even less of whatever race it is and more just any other character that just happens to look like the monster it is modeled after.
The Idea is you put as many of the most important traits to make it as what it is as possible in the Base race, and drop the rest into the levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawken
I believe my concept does away with those problems. Minotaurs are monsters. They are meant to be monsters. If you want to civilize them enough that they are a playable race, then my method is the best. I would even suggest removing any mention of class or even levels for my Minotaur, and just set up the XP chart. When the Minotaur reaches "X" XP, it gains the next set of HD, skills, BAB, Saves and racial abilities. It would not have any classes or class levels, or be eligible to take class levels until it reached its peak at 6HD (and everything else that comes along with it at that point).
Hmm. That is a pretty logical way of looking at it. and that makes a great deal of sense if youre assuming that you started out as a fairly average minotaur. The Idea of breaking it down into levels and a base class, allow you to make minotaurs who are not average. They could be the same CR as a regular minotaur, but have developed some different skills. Maybe instead of 6 levels of minotaur, they are CR 8, and have 4 levels of barbarian. Such a creature would still make a pretty good minotaur, and they would make a good leader Minotaur Boss or NPC that players could have to face. It also allows for a player to make a minotaur who is not ever average. But on the other hand, they could still make said average minotaur. AND! If a DM doesn't want to allow the non-typical option (like you wouldn't), you can easily say "Players have to take all monster levels first", "Players have to take all the monster levels before reaching 1.5x the total of the monster levels" or "Players have to take x(or x%) of the monster levels first", or some other variant thereof. In fact, in a package of monsters like this (like a miniature monster manual or something), I'd say it should include all of these as alternate ways to run allowing monster PCs.
Also, it should be noted, that since all of the monster levels I came up with should be statted to about the same CR as eachother (I'm going to recalculate it after I calculate the CR of Pathfinder Base Classes), the levels shouldn't have to be taken in any particular order in terms of abilities.
The concept of a base race is that you're MAKING a 0HD, 0 LA Race. And then all of the other racial abilities are gained over the racial levels.
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The Idea is you put as many of the most important traits to make it as what it is as possible in the Base race, and drop the rest into the levels.
The problem with this is what I've already stated: That in this case, if you allow class levels before finishing off racial "levels" then its no longer a Minotaur. It looks like a Minotaur, walks like one and smells like one, but without all of its racial abilities in place, its NOT a Minotaur.
And especially in the case of a Minotaur, its most important traits are all too powerful for a 1st level, 0HD, LA 0 race. Even just its racial adjustments alone are too much. No LA 0 race I can think of has a +4 or a -4 to anything, much less a +8 to something as devastating at 1st level as Str.
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That is a pretty logical way of looking at it. and that makes a great deal of sense if youre assuming that you started out as a fairly average minotaur.
As opposed to starting out as a "fairly average" human or dwarf who doesn't have all of the extra stuff that comes along with being a Minotaur? Your "fairly average" argument doesn't hold up because your line or reasoning would indicate that all the PHB races are "fairly average" since they're able to start taking classes with all their racial abilities intact. That's all I'm suggesting with my example for a Minotaur--make sure all racial abilities are intact before taking class levels. That doesn't make them anymore fairly average than an elf, halfling or gnome.
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The Idea of breaking it down into levels and a base class, allow you to make minotaurs who are not average.
No, it allows you to make Minotaurs that are not Minotaurs. It encourages min/maxing because it does nothing to stop players from picking and choosing what they see is the best assets that race has to offer and discarding the rest. It would be no different than players asking to skip the extra skills or feats for a human and starting 1 level higher than everyone else. Yeah, you could do it if you didn't want a "fairly average" human, but then you're discarding what makes humans human in favor of faster class advancement. Allowing the discarding of racial abilities just for earlier access to class advancement is missing the point.
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Also, it should be noted, that since all of the monster levels I came up with should be statted to about the same CR as eachother (I'm going to recalculate it after I calculate the CR of Pathfinder Base Classes), the levels shouldn't have to be taken in any particular order in terms of abilities.
That's not really accurate. Racial abilities are not the same in terms of power/benefit. Case in point; Minotaur's +8 Str and Powerful Charge are more powerful than its immunity to Maze or its bonuses to Listen, Search and Spot. The more monstrous your race is, the more obvious this becomes. There should definitely be some progression to work toward. A full +8 to Str is too powerful early on, but around 5th or 6th level, it can fit in fine compared to Rogue's dealing 3d6 sneak attack and wizards launching fireballs.
Look at how I broke it down. +8 Str is bigger than the skill bonuses. Agreed. That's why they were spread out the way they were. That's why I used UK's CR Guide to decide how to spread them out. that's why I gave them 7HD instead of 6, so that their class abilities wouldnt take them way over the power level of a standard class by the time they get all of them. If you look at the txt file I attached, it's all shown in columns so you can easily make sense of how I did it and why.
At each level, they receive a fairly equal portion - as equal as I could spread it out - of all of their racial abilities (with the exception of the level they gain powerful charge, which should have to go last due to the higher power rating for that level).
The "Minotaurs who are not Minotaurs" would; IMO, be Minotaurs who didn't learn to do all the things regular minotaurs learn, are physically young and immature (like playing a younger dragon), and instead picked up other skills.
Plus, with a level breakdown, as I said, it's pretty easy to require players to take all or some of the levels before allowing actual classes, or allow other players to take other classes at limited rates (such as as much as half the number of racial levels they have, or whatever racial restriction you want to impose). If you spread the power levels as evenly as possible, and in the same structure as LA 0 races, they'll keep up with the other players in relative power, and the restrictions can be applied in whatever manner the DM chooses without having to redesign the class.
The problem with this is what I've already stated: That in this case, if you allow class levels before finishing off racial "levels" then its no longer a Minotaur. It looks like a Minotaur, walks like one and smells like one, but without all of its racial abilities in place, its NOT a Minotaur.
Not really, its just a Minotaur that hasn't followed the typical path.
I mean, is the scrawny human who spends decades in school in order to theorize about Black Holes not a human, even though a typical human spends his day farming or doing other manual labor that builds muscle?
As long as the base things are present from early on- the things that are truly inherent- then you're cool.
So...what makes a Minotaur?
(Well, a woman, a divine curse, a real bull & a fake, hollow cow.)
He's half man, half bull, obviously.
The one of myth & legend was familiar with his maze, probably because he grew up in it. The Minotaur power that makes them familiar with all such labyrinths is an addition, but not necessary.
He should have some animal-like senses- Scent is a core Feat for them, I'd say.
The immense strength? Start off with +2 and add a couple points every Racial level or so. It doesn't need to be there all at once...or even entirely. A minotaur who devotes his life to the life of Wizardry will be stronger than his colleagues, but compared to his kin, he'll be a weakling. His life as an academic won't present the same kinds of opportunities to get physical exercise as other Minotaurs.
The size? Well, Nelson De La Rosa and Gheorghe Muresan are both Humans, and have a height difference of something like 4 1/2'. A Minotaur may be more inclined towards being bigger than humans, but they don't have to be. There is nothing wrong with putting a size bump in a racial class level. (Monte did it for his Giants, FWIW, and it works just fine.)
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