Removing Full Round Actions

[Sadrik]

So this is a thread to discuss the ramifications of removing the full round action from the 3.5/OGL. What would happen? It may solve several problems that people have namely the stand still feature of the full attack.

Full-Round Actions:
Full attack
Cast spell with casting time 1 round
Charge
Deliver coup de grace
Escape from a net
Extinguish flames
Light a torch
Load a heavy or repeating crossbow
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet
Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain
Prepare to throw splash weapon
Run
Use skill that takes 1 round
Use touch spell on up to six friends
Withdraw
Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain

So some of these actions clearly will become standard actions. Others will need some other explanations. Run, loading a crossbow and cast a spell with a casting time of 1 round, what should happen there? Charge?

[Nebten]

Fights would go faster and be more deadly with the ability to move and full attack.

[Aegir]

At least in the case of full attacks, taking the route of SWSE is one I've seen used well enough, and theres been more than a few posts on here saying that the damage comes out pretty close to the same.

Basically, +1 damage per 2 character levels, instead of iteratives.

[Stringburka]

My suggestions for how to solve this:

Full-Round Actions:
Full attack - Allow a second attack as normal at BAB 6, at BAB 11 reduce penalty by -2 and at BAB 16 remove penalty. Also, you may make these attacks as standard attack and full attack is removed.
Cast spell with casting time 1 round - There's not an awful amount of spells with this casting time. It's quite easy to simply change them a little to balance a casting time reduced to 1 standard action.
Charge - Make the move a move and the attack a standard action.
Deliver coup de grace - Standard action that provokes AoO's.
Escape from a net - Move action, increase DC a bit to compensate.
Extinguish flames - Same as escape from net.
Light a torch - Standard action.
Load a heavy or repeating crossbow - A bit harder. I'd suggest two move actions simply.
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet - Standard action.
Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain - Two move actions or maybe one standard.
Prepare to throw splash weapon - Standard.
Run - Could be saved as a full-round actually. It's a quite rare action in my experience, and simply having the rule "if you move for a whole turn with limitations x and y, you move 4 times your speed" isn't such a big deal I think.
Use skill that takes 1 round - Depends on skill in question.
Use touch spell on up to six friends - Make it a move action to touch up to three friends.
Withdraw - Standard.

[Sadrik]

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Full attack - Allow a second attack as normal at BAB 6, at BAB 11 reduce penalty by -2 and at BAB 16 remove penalty. Also, you may make these attacks as standard attack and full attack is removed.

Their are countless variants for doing full attacks but simply allowing a full attacks as a standard action seems pretty good. Pounce is standard for everyone. What does pounce do then...

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Cast spell with casting time 1 round - There's not an awful amount of spells with this casting time. It's quite easy to simply change them a little to balance a casting time reduced to 1 standard action.

Or make casting times of 1 round mean that you have to be casting you have to apply your full attention and do nothing else. (essentially a full round action without the need of calling it a full round action)

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Charge - Make the move a move and the attack a standard action.

Running could be a standard action too. Run plus attack. So running should give the bonuses that charging does... perhaps -2 AC +2 damage.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Deliver coup de grace - Standard action that provokes AoO's.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Escape from a net - Move action, increase DC a bit to compensate.

Standard action and depending on the entangle you may or may not move:

Originally Posted by SRD

Entangled
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Extinguish flames - Same as escape from net.

Standard action

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Light a torch - Standard action.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Load a heavy or repeating crossbow - A bit harder. I'd suggest two move actions simply.

Perhaps swift for light crossbow and standard for heavy.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet - Standard action.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain - Two move actions or maybe one standard.

Standard and your move action, or just ignore this rule and let people take their 5' step in difficult terrain without a problem.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Prepare to throw splash weapon - Standard.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Run - Could be saved as a full-round actually. It's a quite rare action in my experience, and simply having the rule "if you move for a whole turn with limitations x and y, you move 4 times your speed" isn't such a big deal I think.

Move action with x2 distance and -2 AC and +2 damage with melee attacks.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Use skill that takes 1 round - Depends on skill in question.

But generally I think this would work just like spells with 1 round. For instance if you have a lock to open that will take 3 rounds to open you have to commit your whole focus on the action it cannot be shifted elsewhere while doing it.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Use touch spell on up to six friends - Make it a move action to touch up to three friends.

Standard action.

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Withdraw - Standard.

Agreed

[Runestar]

Originally Posted by Aegir

At least in the case of full attacks, taking the route of SWSE is one I've seen used well enough, and theres been more than a few posts on here saying that the damage comes out pretty close to the same.

Basically, +1 damage per 2 character levels, instead of iteratives.

That is like only +10 damage at lv20. How does it even come close?

[Stringburka]

Making it a standard action to touch 3 people means you can only touch 3 people in a normal turn, instead of 6. So it's a nerf to spellcasters who use this kind of spells frequently. But it may not be a big deal.
The solution to Run seems really nice, but perhaps you shouldn't gain the damage bonus against people you move AWAY from, or it would be really weird with kiking archers.

@Runestar: Since the secondary attacks are at such a big penalty, they rarely hit. High-level monsters often have quite large AC's where even a fighter might only hit on 13+ or so, which means the second attack will only hit at 18+ and the rest only at a n20. So against hard foes, +10 to damage might actually be better while against many weak foes it's a nerf because there you can usually hit easier.
However, I dislike that version of it anyways simple because it takes away versatility, something that the fighter types really lack already. Lowering to two attacks seems about right in my opinion.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Originally Posted by Runestar

That is like only +10 damage at lv20. How does it even come close?

It doesn't to my knowledge. It might scale fine in SWSE, but D&D doesn't have a linear scale happening on monster stuff.

You're closer by adding BaB as a Damage bonus, but that's still going to fall short of some potential. It's a subject that's been bandied about and there isn't really a solution that works for everyone.

Trailblazer sets things up so that there's still Iterative Attacks but it's streamlined and easier on the math side. How fast that is in comparison to no Iterative Attacks and a flat damage bonus is debatable; I say debatable not because some folks won't see a speed up but debatable because it's partially a personal preference thing and therefore some folks aren't going to feel it's appreciably faster.

Part of the problem in this issue is that there's a chunk of people in the "good enough for me" camp, while there's another camp that's hardcore math and percentages and deltas and all that stuff. Those two groups square off and start arguing about damage potentials and then they start arguing about the damage at different levels.

An awful lot of the arguments against a flat damage bonus come about because people arguing against it start looking at the high levels (16+) of the game. I've got no clue how many people are really playing at that level; my gut instinct is that the people that _don't_ like Iterative Attacks are probably playing lower level games in the first place.

Here's another interesting thought:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/3515972-post34.html

The entire thread is an interesting read.

And here's another interesting read that's parallel to the other thread:
Removing Multiple Attacks: What changes must be done to monsters?

Wulf makes an interesting point here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4612174-post20.html

I think that his bit about the vanilla sword vs the holy flaming longsword is something that slips by an awful lot of people. I personally don't usually see lots of funky magic weapons in games. You're lucky if you get a basic +[something] weapon and that's about it. So for me, the BaB as a Damage Bonus is good enough. But I also play in games that don't tend to hit level 16+ either. So the two of those things combined (basic magical weapons and below 16) means that what's going to work for me isn't going to work for others.

I think some people also don't realize how fast things like AC and Hit Points sky rocket as CRs increase. Again, it's something you're less likely to notice (or feel the effects of) at lower levels.

I don't want to hijack the thread I'll just leave it at that.

[Sadrik]

Originally Posted by Stringburka

Making it a standard action to touch 3 people means you can only touch 3 people in a normal turn, instead of 6. So it's a nerf to spellcasters who use this kind of spells frequently. But it may not be a big deal.

Standard action to touch up to 6. They must still be in reach, so, they may also have to use there move action as well to get into position.

This also brings me to the thought that everyone should automatically have spring attack and shot on the run and ride/fly by attack feat. Not the ignore AoO portion of the feat but the move - action - move portion so long as they do not go over there total speed (naturally).

Originally Posted by Stringburka

The solution to Run seems really nice, but perhaps you shouldn't gain the damage bonus against people you move AWAY from, or it would be really weird with kiking archers.

Yes, I agree. Running should give -2 AC and there should be an fighting offensively attack option to parallel fighting defensively attack option. In this way you wind up with a charge as a Run + fighting offensively attack option. So what should fighting offensively be?

Originally Posted by SRD

You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

Edit: -4 to attack but +2 to damage for one handed weapons and +3 damage for two handed weapons.

Edit again: Perhaps you just make it a run action + attack action and then add a special +2 to attack whenever those two actions are coupled together.

[Sadrik]

So here is my idea on how it could be done. Take a look and see if there is anything off on this.

Full attack - Standard action
Administer a potion or oil to the unconscious - Standard action
Cast spell with casting time 1 round - Attention no where else during round.
Charge - A modifier to run + attack (+2 to attack).
Deliver coup de grace - Standard action
Escape from a net - Standard action
Extinguish flames - Standard action
Light a torch - Standard action
Load a heavy or repeating crossbow - Standard action
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet - Standard action
Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain - Ignore this rule and simply move 5' regardless of terrain.
Prepare to throw splash weapon - Standard action
Run - Move action (x2 speed and -2 AC)
Sorcerer using meta-magic - Standard action
Throwing a two-handed weapon - Standard action
Use skill that takes 1 round - Attention no where else during round.
Use touch spell on up to six friends - Standard action
Withdraw - Standard action (x1 speed)

Here is a list of things that need to be looked at to implement this:
Run feat would need changing.
Pounce special ability.
Acrobatic charge class feature or any other charge effects.
Slow spell.

Others?