YAGT: Yet Another Grappling Thread

[the_orc_within]

Here's a wordy (sorry, long post ) but fairly minor mod to grappling that slightly improves survivability against certain monsters with super-grappling abilities. Basically, it boils down to adjusting the grapple bonus based on what exactly is doing the grappling:

• "tackle" is a whole-body grapple or "combo" attack of different appendages, mainly used against more or less like-sized foes. Mechanically, "tackle" gives the normal RAW grapple bonus. (Examples: two humans wrestling or doing judo; a lion pouncing on an antelope; a python constricting its prey; a hamatula hugging a PC to its spikes; an owlbear grabbing a dwarf; a grey render granbbing and rending a PC)
• "grasp" utilizes a body part - hand, tentacle, bite - to grab a smaller opponent. Mechanically, for most creatures, grasp yields RAW grapple bonus -8. (Examples: a human holding a cat (the cat is using tackle in return, in this case); a kraken grabbing a PC; a giant gripping a halfling (the halfling is likely tackling in return); an assassin vine entwining with its tendrils; a purple worm biting and swallowing a horse)

It requires a little DM arbitration for unusual cases, but mostly it's fairly logical. Here's a draft writeup of the specifics:

Spoiler:

During a grapple check the grapple initiator uses the size modifier corresponding to the body parts used in the grapple. Ordinarily (for typical PCs and other humanoids), this means either:

1. "tackle" with the whole body - Use the grapple initiator's own size mod when grappling an opponent of one size category smaller*, of the same size category, or one size category larger. (Mechanically, a tackle uses the normal grapple check in RAW.) -OR-
2. "grasp" with an appendage (arm/hand, claw, tentacle, mouth, etc) - Use the mod for the size category two smaller than the grapple initiator's own size category for grapple checks against an opponent one or more size categories smaller*. (Mechanically, a grasp uses a grapple check at -8 as compared to RAW.)

*note: against an opponent exactly one size category smaller, the grapple initiator can choose which size modifier to use (unless GM or circumstances dictate one or the other)

Ordinarily, the defender against the initiator's grapple is considered to be using the tackle mode. The DM decides if circumstances require grapplers to use one grapple mode or the other.

For either tackle or grasp, the grapple check vs an opponent two or more size categories larger automatically fails (as RAW), unless circumstances allow otherwise.

For some creatures, the max- and min- sized opponent that can be grappled may vary from the default grapple rules because of feats, special abilities or features. This should be indicated in description text.

For certain creatures that can use grasp, the size mod of the appendage used might be different than the normal "size-2" rule, because the grappling appendage is relatively bigger or smaller than assumed by default. (eg, a medium human's hands are tiny, but a medium monstrous scorpion's claws are small, rather than tiny) This should be indicated in the creature description.

The feat Improved Grapple remains unchanged. Additional feats might extend the size ranges affected by a grappler's attacks, abilty to escape holds, move an opponent, etc.

A creature with Improved Grab, loses that special ability and replaces it with one of two new special abilities, depending upon how a monster typically uses its ability:

Improved Grasp

Spoiler:

Improved Grasp
Typically reserved for creatures that grapple with an individual body part, such as a tentacle or pseudopod, claw, mouth, etc. Many such creatures can grapple multiple opponents simultaneously; others focus on swallowing opponents.

(deviations from RAW noted in orange)

If a creature with this special attack hits an opponent with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grasp-type grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grasp works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grasp-type grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grasp to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -8 penalty on grapple checks vs that opponent, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grasp attack, it can choose to pull the opponent into its space, provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Improved Tackle

Spoiler:

Improved Tackle
Typically reserved for creatures that use two or more appendages together in "combo" attacks, or its entire body in a grapple; often, such creatures have access to tactics such as pounce or hug [eg, animals], engulf [eg, oozes], body constrict [eg, constrictor snakes], rake, rend, grab-and-sting, etc. Such creatures generally can only "hold" a single opponent.

(deviations from RAW noted in orange)

If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a tackle-type grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved tackle works only against opponents of the same size category as itself, or down to two size categories smaller. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved tackle attack, it can choose either to pull the opponent into its space (provided it can drag the opponent’s weight), or move into the opponent's space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

FYI, here's a list of SRD creatures with improved grab, and an inteerpretation of which typically use grasp and which use tackle:

Spoiler:

Monsters with Improved Grab: What kind of grapplers are they?

T=tackle G=grasp

behir T - body constrict > rake, swallow
choker G - tentacle
chuul G - claw
retriever G - bite > hold
hezrou T- wrestle
bezekira T - pounce, rake
hamatula T - hug
pit fiend G - tail
tyranosaur G - bite > swallow
grey render T - bite > claw rend
hag, annis T - claws > rake, rend
kraken G - tentacles
lillend G - tail
morgh T - (? guess. only one slam, kinda zombie like. tackle seems appropriate)
nightcrawler G - bite > swallow
ooze, grey T (or G?) single slam > constrict (? one big fat pseudopod, most of ooze's mass?)
ooze, ochre jelly T (or G?) single slam > constrict (ditto)
ooze, black pudding T (or G?) single slam > constrict (ditto)
otyugh G - tentacle
owlbear T - hug (?guess)
purple worm G - bite > swallow
rast G - bite
remorhaz G - bite > swallow
shambling mound T - hug
tarasque G - bite > swallow
tendriculous G - bite > swallow, or G - tentacle
wyvern T - talons > sting
xill T - multiple claws > bite
bear T - hug
croc T - bite > drag & drown
octopus T - arms (all arms comprise single attack by RAW)
octopus, giant G - tentacle (multiple individual attacks)
snake, constrictor T - body constrict
squid, giant G - tentacle
ant, giant worker T (? because same as for soldier)
ant, giant soldier T - bite > sting
ant, giant queen T (? because same as for soldier)
monstrous scorpion G - claws

notes:

• usually, a creature with "combo" attacks (in which one of a creature's special attacks or standard tactics cannot be used [except constrict] unless a grapple is established) is put in the "tackle" category.
• G for more "precise" attacks (prey usually smaller than self), and T otherwise.
• bite is G if it leads to a swallow (only one 'appendage'(mouth) is involved); bite is T if leads to rake (combo attack, diff't appendages together)
• i guessed in a few cases (oozes, morgh, giant ant), just went with whatever seemed to fit the concept.
• for a few of the G creatures, could rule that grasping appendage is a size category bigger than default rules assume (ie, so only one size category smaller and thus a -4 to listed grapple, rather than -8). (eg, chuul, scorpion (bulky claws), pitfiend, lillend (big tails), otyugh, tendriculos (just because theyre too nerfed otherwise, imo?) )

[Celebrim]

This reminds me of the GULLIVER rules (for GURPS) that adjusted your effective strength based on what percentage of your body you could actually bring to bear in the grapple. Your rules adopt the same sort of approach, although a good bit simplier than the infamously complicated GULLIVER rules.

I've been wrestling with how to bring that sort of thing into the game primarily because the grapple bonuses for huge creatures are unnecessarily high in most cases. A Kraken or a giant can't really use its full strength and weight when grappling a human. If a giant picks up a human with one hand it's the human full strength versus the strength of the giants thumb and fingers - much fairer of a contest than the RAW imply.

Right at the moment, the best variation I've come up with is to do away with the grapple bonus for size entirely, and simply rule that if you are bigger than the thing you are grappling, you get a +4 bonus on your rolls.

One of the examples of the validity of reducing grapple bonuses is how easily you can grapple a small insect, for example. Swat, yes, grapple, not so much.

For a fairly wide variaty of situations, your proposed rules and this variation yield the exact same results. However, my variation is a good bit simplier. After attempting to play GULLIVER/GURPS with a very high level of realism and versimilitude, I have to say that I've become - at least in some cases - a convert to simplicity (though not at the cost of reducing a players implicit in game options).

[the_orc_within]

@Celebrim: Thanks for the insight: It certainly sounds like your method equates to mine in many cases, if not most cases a PC is likely to encounter!

One thing I'd point out is that with the tackle/grasp distinction, it's not necessary to deconstruct then reconstruct the grapple bonus in a published statblock. Rather it's just a simple subtraction: just decide on a grapple mode:

• if ( "tackle" ), then use (RAW grapple bonus)
• if ( "grasp" ), then use (RAW grapple bonus -8)
• optionally, a few monsters that "grasp" use (RAW grapple bonus -4) instead

The only hard part is deciding which mode to use, and usually that's pretty obvious. Generally,

• if ( opponent is same size or bigger ) then ("tackle")
• if ( opponent is smaller ) then ( "grasp" )
• certain monsters prefer one or the other, regardless of opponent size

I guess I just like differentiating things out a bit. This method serves to reduce the effective strength of one-appendage "graspers", without penalizing the whole-body "tacklers". Thus it's easier to break free of an assassin vine's tendril than from a lion's bite/claw/claw - even though their size and strength bonuses are the same.

In all fairness, I should note the other change I buried in the special ability text in the OP: creatures with Improved Grasp only take the -8 penalty to hold an opponent, whereas creatures with Improved Tackle take the full -20 as per the RAW.

[Celebrim]

Originally Posted by the_orc_within

In all fairness, I should note the other change I buried in the special ability text in the OP: creatures with Improved Grasp only take the -8 penalty to hold an opponent, whereas creatures with Improved Tackle take the full -20 as per the RAW.

Ok, I admit I didn't drill down all the way into the post to catch that.

Yeah, that opens up some interest because creatures now have some decisions to make on whether they want to tackle or grasp a target and creatures with one or the other now function somewhat differently. I very much like tactical variety and things that lend themselves to evocative cinematic ('mechanics imply visual descriptions') combat.

To be honest though, I prefer that the option to take -20 on a grapple to be considered not grappling be something that's just part of the standard grappling rules and to not require a special feat or ability. However, I like the idea of having an 'improved grasp' that reduces this penalty for things like cephalopods or vines well enough to think about adopting something like that into my rules when I get around to rewriting the monster manual (currently I'm rewriting the PH).

[the_orc_within]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

Ok, I admit I didn't drill down all the way into the post to catch that.

Yes, it was pretty dense. Apologies

Well, it sounds like we're pretty much on the same wavelength on this, at least to a degree. I completely agree on your argument for simplicity. I have to admit the flat +4 to the bigger opponent is an attractive approach, on balance.

Grapple's just one of those things that's so vague and different from creature, it never felt satisfying by RAW. (I guess that's why so many 3e gamers constantly tinker with that particular rule! ). I suppose there will always be that age old trade off between keeping it simple, and modelling a situation in an interesting way.

Thanks for the input. It's given me a couple things to think about.