So, my wizard just picked up Simulacrum, and I'm just now exploring the horrible, horrible things I can do with this spell. Only one thing bugs me...I have no ranks in disguise, so any checks I make to create the likeness of the Simulacrum are untrained, straight CHA rolls.
My question is: can I take 20 on this roll? It's got a casting time of 12 hours, so it's fair to say you have enough time. There are no actual in-game penalties for failure, and the skill description allows you to Try Again; usually a good sign that it's possible to Take 20. On the other hand, you are casting the spell for those 12 hours, and it's fair to say that you are distracted. That, and the spell is powerful enough already.
So, my wizard just picked up Simulacrum, and I'm just now exploring the horrible, horrible things I can do with this spell. Only one thing bugs me...I have no ranks in disguise, so any checks I make to create the likeness of the Simulacrum are untrained, straight CHA rolls.
My question is: can I take 20 on this roll? It's got a casting time of 12 hours, so it's fair to say you have enough time. There are no actual in-game penalties for failure, and the skill description allows you to Try Again; usually a good sign that it's possible to Take 20. On the other hand, you are casting the spell for those 12 hours, and it's fair to say that you are distracted. That, and the spell is powerful enough already.
Any thoughts?
You cannot take 20 because you cannot try again without recasting the spell. Essentially, the reason you can try again with a Disguise kit is that you can wash off the make-up, remove the costume, and re-apply. However, when you are actually creating the construct out of snow and determining the likeness with Disguise, it is very similar to a Craft check (in fact, I might rule that you get synergy for being a sculptor) in that the spell and materials are wasted if you don't like the result and want to start over. Now, if you're willing to pay 20x the usual XP and cast the spell 20 times, then you can take 20 on the Disguise roll.
I'd argue that you COULD take 10 on the disguise roll, but without a skill to supplement the 10, I'd be better off just rollin' the bones and takin' my chances.
I'd argue that you COULD take 10 on the disguise roll, but without a skill to supplement the 10, I'd be better off just rollin' the bones and takin' my chances.
Thanks Rystil
I agree, you could probably take 10, since you aren't rushed, and there isn't some immediate danger of failure, seeing as it will just be used for an opposed roll later.
Some related questions:
-Could someone with the disguise skill use the "aid another" action to give you a +2 on this check? In-game it makes sense that someoen could stand by and say, "No, there, deepen the wrinkles around her eyes!" and so forth to give you some assistance.
-Would being under the influence of any cha-affecting effects during part of the casting be beneficial? For example, could someone cast Eagle's Splendor on the wizard at a key moment to give him a bonus? Similarly, could someone cast Guidance on him at a key moment for a bonus?
-What would be a reasonable cost for a one-shot magic item that gave a disguise check bonus for use in the creation of a simulacrum? Would 1,000 gold for a +5 competence bonus be reasonable?
Daniel
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Some related questions:
-Could someone with the disguise skill use the "aid another" action to give you a +2 on this check? In-game it makes sense that someoen could stand by and say, "No, there, deepen the wrinkles around her eyes!" and so forth to give you some assistance.
I'd say yes. It's a skill roll, so why not? They would have to be present for the whole casting, though. Just as two casters collaborating on creating a magic item must both be present for the whole process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pielorinho
-Would being under the influence of any cha-affecting effects during part of the casting be beneficial? For example, could someone cast Eagle's Splendor on the wizard at a key moment to give him a bonus? Similarly, could someone cast Guidance on him at a key moment for a bonus?
As above, I'd say the effect would have to apply for the whole casting. Generally that seems to be how it works for enhancers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pielorinho
-What would be a reasonable cost for a one-shot magic item that gave a disguise check bonus for use in the creation of a simulacrum? Would 1,000 gold for a +5 competence bonus be reasonable?
-What would be a reasonable cost for a one-shot magic item that gave a disguise check bonus for use in the creation of a simulacrum? Would 1,000 gold for a +5 competence bonus be reasonable?
Get a potion of disguise self for 50 gp. Give it to the simulacrum.
If you need it to last longer and have the money, get a hat of disguise. Give it to the simulacrum.
1,000gp for a one-shot +5 competence bonus is probably too high.
You can get a permanent +5 competence bonus for roughly 5^2*100 = 2,500, disregarding, for the moment, dcollins-like objections.
Moreover:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD, Wondrous Items
Elixir of Swimming: This elixir bestows swimming ability. An almost imperceptible magic sheath surrounds the drinker, allowing him to glide through the water easily (+10 competence bonus on Swim checks for 1 hour).
Faint illusion; CL 2nd; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have 5 ranks in the Swim skill; Price 250 gp.
This is a one-shot +10 bonus (and so should be exponentially more expensive). Moreover, it applies to any use of the swim skill, rather than the limited application your proposed one-shot device would have.
Get a potion of disguise self for 50 gp. Give it to the simulacrum.
If you need it to last longer and have the money, get a hat of disguise. Give it to the simulacrum.
By the time you can cast Simulacrum, putting Disguise Self on something is asking to have it detected as a fake. That said, I agree with Patryn on his analysis (which is good for the caster considering how much a simulacrum costs in and of itself, 100 gp per HD). Here's my take on an item:
Ice of Deception: Found deep within the reaches of the Proteus glacier on the Paraelemental Plane of Ice, this strange material is particularly malleable and susceptible to taking on characteristics from the mental impressions left upon it by anyone touching it. When refined by a wizard with the appopriate skills and used in the creation of a simulacrum, this special ice grants a +10 competence bonus to the caster's Disguise check for making the Simulacrum a realistic duplicate. Although this ice is rare and expensive (about 3200 gp per pound), it takes but an ounce of it to aid in the creation of a single simulacrum.
Faint transmutation; CL 2nd; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have special tools to refine this Paraelemental Ice; Price 200 gp.
Rather than an item, I was thinking of researching a spell...+10 insight bonus on any one skill, 12-hour duration. This will prove much more useful in future than a one-shot item, or even a permanent item keyed to Disguise. Such a spell may already exist somewhere, but I can't think of anything Core.
Since the Simulacrum spell describes the requirement as a straight skill roll, I'd assume that anything that could enhance a normal Disguise check will help the check made for a simulacrum. Aid Another would help, but I agree the "other" would have to be there for the whole process. Masterwork sculpting toolsor a masterwork disguise kit might work for a +2 bonus, as well. Stuff like the Skill Focus feat would apply, too, but are hardly worth taking for this reason alone.
So that gives us +2 for having help, +2 for masterwork tools, let's throw in a Persistant Eagle's Spleandor for another +2. If I can get away with the +10 spell or item, that's a +16 to my disguise check, with no CHA bonus or skill ranks. That's not shabby at all, and would be more than enough to fool a casual observer.
Any other tricky ways to tack on a bonus to that disguise roll?
Rather than an item, I was thinking of researching a spell...+10 insight bonus on any one skill, 12-hour duration. This will prove much more useful in future than a one-shot item, or even a permanent item keyed to Disguise. Such a spell may already exist somewhere, but I can't think of anything Core.
Since the Simulacrum spell describes the requirement as a straight skill roll, I'd assume that anything that could enhance a normal Disguise check will help the check made for a simulacrum. Aid Another would help, but I agree the "other" would have to be there for the whole process. Masterwork sculpting toolsor a masterwork disguise kit might work for a +2 bonus, as well. Stuff like the Skill Focus feat would apply, too, but are hardly worth taking for this reason alone.
So that gives us +2 for having help, +2 for masterwork tools, let's throw in a Persistant Eagle's Spleandor for another +2. If I can get away with the +10 spell or item, that's a +16 to my disguise check, with no CHA bonus or skill ranks. That's not shabby at all, and would be more than enough to fool a casual observer.
Any other tricky ways to tack on a bonus to that disguise roll?
I don't suggest that you allow a spell that gives a +10 insight bonus to skills. Why not? Let's say you make that spell 2nd-level (and you probably wouldn't put it much above that). Witness Bob the 3rd-level Wizard with 14 Dex, who crafts an Elixir of +10 competence bonus and then casts the spell and gets another +10 insight bonus. Add in his stat bonus and he has +22 to Hide, whereas Cedric the 20 Dexterity Halfling Rogue (level 3) (+4 size bonus to hide for being small) with Skill Focus [hide] and Stealthy has +20 to Hide.
As an aside, what I'm doing with the spell right now is making a simulacrum of a dragon we fought, to a mutual retreat. I'm figuring him at about Old age category, which would put him right at the upper lmit of what I can create with this spell. Some blood off the paladin's sword, a bunch of cash from the party's pooled resources, and voila, we have an 13HD red dragon at my command...I could care less about how much this dragon looks like the original or not, as it's intended to be nothing more than a mobile flamethrower and potential mount, but when I go about creating a Simulacrum of myself, I want that one to look as realistic as possible...
Another possibility is creating a Simulacrum of a doppleganger. At which point the disguise roll becomes moot...it's own disguise abilities will be so much better than mine, anyway.
With this spell, and enough resources, every encounter becomes the possibility of another wonderful toy...
I don't suggest that you allow a spell that gives a +10 insight bonus to skills. Why not? Let's say you make that spell 2nd-level (and you probably wouldn't put it much above that). Witness Bob the 3rd-level Wizard with 14 Dex, who crafts an Elixir of +10 competence bonus and then casts the spell and gets another +10 insight bonus. Add in his stat bonus and he has +22 to Hide, whereas Cedric the 20 Dexterity Halfling Rogue (level 3) (+4 size bonus to hide for being small) with Skill Focus [hide] and Stealthy has +20 to Hide.
Hmm...good point. I just picked the Insight bonus out of the air, didn't really check what kinds of bonuses other items/spells used. Make it the same kind of bonus as the elixirs, so they don't stack, and then it's probably a viable spell...
I'm not sure you couldn't take 20 on the roll. After all, you don't lose the XP if you're interrupted during the casting of a spell so what's to say you don't look at the simulacrum and decide it's not good enough and abort your own casting? I'd rule it takes you 20 days to get it done but if you have the time I don't see why not.
Look under the disguise skill, you can get bonuses, especially if you are making one of, say, yourself. I also think that a craft check should be made, such as craft (stoneworking) or something similar that carves objects, especially if someone is making a dragon. The spell is very powerful, good thing because illusion is kinda weak, and should be moderated closely by the DM.
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I'm not sure you couldn't take 20 on the roll. After all, you don't lose the XP if you're interrupted during the casting of a spell...
Don't think that's accurate. From the SRD, "Magic Overview: Components":
Quote:
XP Cost (XP): Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.
__________________ Allowing "New Magic Items" is a rules variant (DMG p. 214), so please put them in House Rules.
Like the DMG says, "the formulas only provide a starting point".
Rather than an item, I was thinking of researching a spell...+10 insight bonus on any one skill, 12-hour duration. This will prove much more useful in future than a one-shot item, or even a permanent item keyed to Disguise. Such a spell may already exist somewhere, but I can't think of anything Core.
Moment of Prescience, Sor/Wiz/Luck 8; 1 hour/level, minimum caster level 15, works on any Opposed skill check ONCE. As the Disguise roll is for opposition at a later date, it should work.
Don't think that's accurate. From the SRD, "Magic Overview: Components":
Huh. Well that's a surprise. I was sure that XP was kept, just like aborting an incomplete magic item creation. Mooo, moo-moo.
More on topic, it seems that only creatures familiar with the creature being duped have a chance of recognizing the difference. That could make it a non-issue depending on the intended uses.
As far as things that could help the process, pick up a luckstone, check out the psionic shards items from XPH since they can provide a temporary +10 skill bonus that lasts more than 1 round, and try to hook up with a fatespinner who can let you re-roll an absolutely sucky disguise check.
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