Monks Underpowered?
 

So a lot of people allude to monks being underpowered, but I guess I don't see it. I am currently playing a monk at 12th level who seems to be doing OK.

He has the best AC in the group (thanks to a lucky find of some bracers) and, while he doesn't have a super high attack bonus, he gets 4 attacks (3 at +18, 1 at +13) (5 with boots of speed) and he usually hits more than the figter. His total damage is somewhat less, but he is consistent. Add to that stunning fist DC 21 (ability focus helps) he seems to hold his own.

In addition he gets good saves, improved evasion, can heal his own damage, and next level he gets SR 23. This seems to be a decent balance with the fighter to me.

So why is the monk class generally thought be underpowered? Not being snotty, I'm really interested in peoples opinion on this.

Thanks

I thought the prevailing opinion was that the 3.0 monk sucked, and 3.5 is all right.

It all comes down to Stats, more so than with other melee Classes. A Rogue with five 10s, and an 18 Dex with Chainshift has the same AC as a Monk with four 10s and an 18 Dex and 18 Wis.... at least at lvl 1. A monk made with pt buy is going to look pretty weak compared to the other PCs.

A level 12 monk has a +9 BAB. That means you are getting another +9 from some other source be it a combination of amazing stats (Dex or Str), weapon focus, amulet of mighty fists, or a very high magic weapon. I would say that's highly unusual.

I'm currently playing a level 10 monk with a Str 18 and he is consistently outshined by by the fighters. He has a few tricks (stunning fist, spring attack, and tripping), but in general his +11/+11/+6 just isn't enough against CR 10+ monsters.

The +18 is +9 (BAB), +1 (weapon focus), +6 (dex; weapon finesse, 18 natural, +4 magic), +2 (amulet of natural fists). The items are well within the wealth limits of a 12th level character.

My thought was that the Monk is actually really good if you don't follow the fallacy that Monks are supposed to be front-line fighters.

It sounds like your monk has good ability scores and nice magic items.
Those go a long way to make the class decent.

And yeah, the 3.5 monk is quite a bit better than the 3.0 one.

Bye
Thanee

Look at how much those bracers cost and you'll find that you could really do better with that money spent on some other AC boosting item. Just FYI. Bracers of Armor are horribly overpriced.

Monks should have really had full BAB... YMMV


Mike

Bracers are bonus squared x 1000. RIng of prtection and amulet of NA are both bonus squared x 2000. The bracers are priced more reasonably than the others. It doesn't really matter because the character found them so wasn't given a choice.

The over priced item is the amulet of mighty fists; bonus squared x 6000 ridiculous!

I think Monks biggest problem is that they don't fill any of the main niches that are necessary to most D&D groups. They aren't front line fighters, they aren't rogue type, they can't track or cast spells.

Also when it comes to dishing out damage they have problem against many monsters. A fighter has a bit more versatility when it comes to dealing damage in some ways. Fighters get to use magical weapons better too.

One thing Monks are good at... is not getting killed IMO. My 15th lvl Vow of Poverty Monk has been totally useless in several combats due to Adamantium DR 10 or Lawful neutral planar creatures that suffer little damage. Still he stayed up front getting beaten with -5 due to his DR. High AC, DR and good saves means that Monks tend to survive well... but that doesn't help the group that much unless you have good fighters to do the damage.

Main problems:

- Requires good stats
- Lower than fighter BAB means missing more or less Power Attack
- Generally bad damage "output"
- Can't fill front line fighter position
- Magic Items aren't that good for him
- Power Attack better for fighters
- His abilities vs DR or SR seem to arrive too late in the level progression
- Can be very useless against certain monsters

The monk that I am playing actually has been able to stay in the front thus far. I did roll good stats, and got to choose some items since he started at higher level (replaced a "failed" character). I went the way of finesse (cuts down on damage, but dex gets to play double duty) or strength. The monk has the best AC in the group (not counting our insane wizard that walks around as a troglodyte all the time). The fighter deals MUCH more damage on average, but the fighter is at +21 or 20 to hit to the monk's +18 so the monk hits quite often. The stunning fist may be most useful against caters, but if you hit even a tough guy enough, they will eventually fail the save, then its smashing time...

Don't know, just my 2 cents, but I see the monk as able to hold his own in combat. (not trying to be one of those that posts a question then argues with the answers, just trying to get a discussion going)

I liked the 3.0 Monk way more than the 3.5 ...

That is pretty crazy. In a Rules of the Game article, they said it was priced for a wrong-body-slot, and if you made into gloves or something it'd bonus squared x 4000. Still pretty high, though.

Any particular reason? The 3.5 Monk certainly seems to be better balanced.

The monk is second fiddle at all of the abilities it has compared to a class that occupies a specific niche, with a few extra abilities as compensation. In an MMORPG, the monk would be a great "solo" character, but in a campaign with a Fighter, Rogue and a couple of spellcasters, it's difficult for monk characters to really distinguish themselves.

Monks are, however, a bit better in campaigns with few magic items, since their BAB is not as easily outstripped by a fighter with a magic weapon and their excellent saves are hard to match.

Personally, I'd like it if they made the monk more of a fighting psionicist -- one of two "core" options for psionics users.

Personally I have just made it an item that takes up a slot and is bonus squared x 2k just like a normal weapon, but it only works for unarmed strikes.

At that, I 'still' think it is overpriced because it takes up a body slot vs a weapon which takes up a 'hand' slot.

But at least it is affordable for a monk to get decent weaponry boosts without having to merely get an item to cast greater magic fang x times per day at caster level y.
(an item for greater magic fang at caster level 20 is 3*20*1800*3/5 = 64,8k vs +5 amulet of mighty fists +5 of 150k for basically the same effect.. bah)

psychic warrior does have a lot of personal buffs which can be used to make them a very good unarmed character.

Of course they also suffer from medium bab and an 'incredibly' short supply of pp ;)

Well first of all the balance between the Characters in 3.0 was more or less as even as in 3.5 (casters a bit better, Ranger still was a flop in 3.0)
The weird way of counting attacks by their unarmed attackbonus allowed them to get 7 Attacks with flurry(or well and improved version from sword and fist)

They as the only Character/Class Could deal 1d20 Damage on an attack

And They didn't have that much of a problem with damage reduction as they've got a bonus themselves to beat it + you could just get some of those greater magic fang items for the tough encountters .. or ally with a druid.

Monks together with rangers and paladins were unordinary Characters and Abit rare to be played on lower levels as they need a bit better stats to be effective, really giving them the Perfect Spark of Rareness and speciallity, if you were able to play'd them.

True, Rules of the game article right out said that they were priced at +50% (I see this has already been pointed out).

Rings of protection will protect better than bracers of armor... but more importantly bracers of armor won't stack with Mage Armor. And for 1000 you can buy a pearl of power, hand it to the party mage every morning before he casts mage armor on himself, and get him to cast in on you too with no additional strain on his own resources!

Now, if you don't have a party mage it's true that bracers are a decent investment.. still, I'd buy luck and insight bonuses to AC before I'd buy "armor" bonuses to an unarmored character.

ANyhow. Overall the monk IS less powerful than other classes... in many situations. There are game styles that will favor the monk however. And/or the monk might be better optimized (it's hard to build a monk *wrong*) than the other characters, and that can also affect the perceptions of relative power level.