Entangle - A Little Too Strong For A 1st Level Spell?

[Pickaxe]

I voted no. It's great outdoors, but it's usually useless in the dungeon (until you hit the requisite "room of brightly colored giant mushrooms"). It's also most effective (and looks most overpowered) at lowest levels. It doesn't take too many levels before foes have good Reflex saves, high Strength, and/or good Escape Artist modifiers. Or maybe they just fly.

Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to reducing the AoE to 20' radius. That would be comparable to Web, which is the next most similar spell. A reduced AoE would basically guarantee that creatures that save get out in one round.

By the way, if there are no trees to hide behind, affected creatures could also just go prone to make it harder on the archers.

--Axe

[Felon]

Originally Posted by Nail

6-8 times where you have time to cast a 1 round spell, the bad guys are tightly grouped, and the sum of opponents HD is less than 4 HD, eh?

Those are some challenging encounters......

There's some wisecrack somebody could make about the grass always being greener, but I think I'll pass...

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by Mistwell

Honestly, given the opportunity, I think my character would use the smaller area more often than the current version. I know that doesn't seem logical, but really the area is TOO big, and I always seem to catch my allies in the spread, or mess up a charging or melee tactic that someone was planning on using, or allow for opponents to escape.

Is there any reason you can't air burst the entangle? On a grid the vertical dimensions should be about the same as the horizontal dimensions. Doing that already lets you dial the radius as you desire.

[Felon]

Originally Posted by Pickaxe

I voted no. It's great outdoors, but it's usually useless in the dungeon (until you hit the requisite "room of brightly colored giant mushrooms"). It's also most effective (and looks most overpowered) at lowest levels. It doesn't take too many levels before foes have good Reflex saves, high Strength, and/or good Escape Artist modifiers. Or maybe they just fly.

Hehe, I've been posting at length about how flawed just about everything said above is. God loves a contrarian, I suppose.

Strength scores don't ratchet up that much. Few creatures are just laughing off a DC 20 STR check. It takes a 30 STR just to get 50/50 odds.

Escape Artist? Flip through the ol' MM and look for critters with ranks in this skill. Few and far between.

A creatures makes its save, its still gotta half-move to get out of the enormous radius.

By the way, if there are no trees to hide behind, affected creatures could also just go prone to make it harder on the archers.

Yes, and they can go on Total Defense too. They can do things like that to prolong their agony, but they're not outlasting the duration of entangle, so it's just dragging out a combat they've effectively lost. As a DM, I'll take fireballing a pack of bugbears into oblivion. Quick, clean, efficient.

[Nail]

Originally Posted by frankthedm

Is there any reason you can't air burst the entangle? On a grid the vertical dimensions should be about the same as the horizontal dimensions. Doing that already lets you dial the radius as you desire.

Oh......hello.

That's a great (and legitimate) idea! Minimum radius then is....hmmm... 5 feet? You could just hit the big guy in front of your Ftr while he's flanked by your Rog. Brilliant.

[Nail]

Again, if this wasn't clear:

frankthedm, in one blow, crushes the argument: "Entangle isn't overpowered 'cause it's too big to use".

<crushed>

It's actually adjustable!

So....what's not overpowered, again?

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by Felon

Entangle is an encounter-ruining spell that robs many encounters of any tactical challenge. A creature with a speed of 30 feet is reduced to 3 squares of movement to exit the spel's areas. So with a 40-foot spread, you have to be within 2 squares of its border. It can easily trap a whole cadre of humanoids. And the Strength check and Escape Artist DC are flat-out ridiculous for a 1st-level spell.

Damned if you save, damned if you don't. I don't know why it's so, but for some reason the designers wanted "terrain control" spells to be really effective--entangle, web, spike stones, spike growth). They are basically "rocks without paper".

Actually a character with a 30 ft speed can still move 30 ft in a round (you can still hustle, 2 move actions - albeit with half speed (i.e., 15 ft) each). So at worst in order to get out of an entangle a character with a 30 ft speed needs 3 move actions (1 1/2 rounds) and 2 saving throws. That is assuming he is exactly in the middle.

[IcyCool]

Originally Posted by Nail

It's actually adjustable!

It is? Could you point out where you can do that via the rules? I'm just curious, because it would be a very handy thing for Fireballs and such. (Yay! This ruling makes the evocation blasty spells more on par with the orb spells! Wait....)

[Nail]

You can target anywhere within range you can see and to which you have line of effect.

Does not a spot 30 ft in the air qualify? Can you not fireball flying creatures?

Etc.

[Nail]

Put another way: "radius" does not necessarily imply "cylinder". It implies "Sphere".

[IcyCool]

Originally Posted by Nail

You can target anywhere within range you can see and to which you have line of effect.

Does not a spot 30 ft in the air qualify? Can you not fireball flying creatures?

Etc.

Sweet, no longer do I have to worry about hitting my compatriot's with a fireball, I now have surgical precision!

Edit - Hmm, that doesn't quite work with Entangle though, does it. The target is "Plants in the area", right? So unless you are in a forest, you won't find many plants in the area of a 40 foot radius sphere of air.

But hey, now I can fireball a 5' square, so this conversation ain't all bad!

[Nail]

Yep.

I know yer tryin' t' be sarcastic, but in this case it's unwarranted. D&D has always (in 3.xe) had a spell targeting system in which the caster may chose exactly where to place the spell effect. "Surgical precision" is part-n-parcel of the 3.xe system.

Come on. Don't tell me you've never seen a Wizard place his fireball just so in order to exclude a party member from its radius? How about lining up a Wall of Fire in just the right way? Etc, etc....

That said, many people forget about the 3rd dimension when playing on a battle map.



...if you are looking for a limiting factor, remember this: Dungeons usually have low ceilings.

[Nail]

Edit-wars, eh?

Originally Posted by IcyCool

[i]Edit - Hmm, that doesn't quite work with Entangle though, does it. The target is "Plants in the area", right? So unless you are in a forest, you won't find many plants in the area of a 40 foot radius sphere of air.

The target of the area may be any where you like.

...but only "plants in the area" are affected.

Simple.

[IcyCool]

Oh, and could you point out where I might find the rules for targetting that include what you mention? Or at least the rules for determining how to calculate the reduced radius? I mean, surely this isn't a new idea. Surely the "air burst" isn't new to 3.5, is it?

[Nail]

Here's the question you should answer:

Can you hit a creature flying 100 feet off the ground with a fireball?