An old question, but I was curious if anyone has been able to kill an actual deity in 3.0/3.5e. If so, how?
Greywanderer
As DM it's a nonissue, so I assume you mean as a player. Well, unless your DM sets things up so that you can find a pre-weakened deity and off it (as Finder did with Moander,) or unless you find an artifact weapon capable of killing even a deity (as Cyric did) you're basically out of luck.
The DM has to set things up for you to be able to kill a deity.
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Originally Posted by edhel I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.
Originally Posted by Malum It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.
Originally Posted by K Anything with 'Elven' in the name does more damage.
Originally Posted by Nifft I have great respect for "realism" in its natural habitat ("reality"), but I find it out of place in D&D, and on this board in particular.
I am more worried about the logistics of running a high epic game. Try searching for the thread titled "Iron seige" at gleemax, where the player attempts to invade Dispater's realm. I recall a demilich getting drowned in holy water, amongst other things. Simply put, with the abilities available to a deity, you would be stymied long before you got to make your 1st die roll.
The person in question who was running Iron Seige (if I remember correctly) was fudging things to make the characters fail.
He also severely limited the amount of cheese by the baseline rules imposed on the players, and each PC was somewhat at a disadvantage against Dispater himself due to due to the DVR restrictions. He was also using all sorts of Vile feats that the PC's weren't expecting.
If your players want to kill a deity, my advice is to let them try and see what happens. I'm sure you can find good stats for divinities out there. Dicefreaks should have some, for sure.
__________________ "Was the Paladin's name Sir Lollerskates, and the Xixecal's name OMG'NERF? - One of my players, upon hearing that a level 36 paladin killed a Xixecal in one round.
Yes actually. The players ranged from levels 27-36, party of about 5-6 depending on who could make it.
One of my players one shoted Fraz-urb-lu, not a god i know, but still. All the while the rest of the party held off a group of about 100 mariliths. Seriously.
And the players took out a lesser deity in a FR game I was running. It was a custom god that was actually quite powerful compared to the lesser gods in the books.
However, in both cases they were buffed out and used tactics out the whazoo. One player died in both cases by the way.
That "artifact weapon" used by Cyric was an avatar of Mask.
Yes. Specifically, Mask's aspect of Intrigue, which at the time was part of his portfolio. None of which changes the main point of my statement, which is that it equaled hand-waving by the DM. There is no way in the rules to guarantee you get something like that; the DM would have to set it up as part of the story.
I generally find that actually killing deities for good is a matter of the DM allowing it and/or not playing the deity to potential, even in the case of 30th level characters. Properly used, salient divine abilities are MUCH more powerful than anything mortals are packing. Most deities have also had a long, long time to practice and think up efficient ways to use them, and they have much better mental attributes than the player characters (possibly putting casters aside.) They also tend to have huge lists of immunities and home field advantage.
I am sympathetic to the fact that the divine rules are tricky and it can be hard to remember all sorts of advantages that they get in the heat of battle. But my point is that a properly played deity ought to wipe the floor with any mortal force remotely near its level - usually without breaking a sweat.
Of particular note:
Quote:
Originally Posted by srd
Automatic Actions
When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank.
Want to fight a deity of magic? Prepare to be hit by a dozen free-action spells per round on top of a quickened spell and normally cast epic spell. A deity of trickery could probably steal all your important magic items and spell components in one round (or realistically, before you were aware of them.)
Even a rank 1 deity can take Alter Reality as its Salient Divine Ability. That's basically one Wish every round, except it doesn't quite have to abide by the same restrictions and isn't subject to things like spell resistance, as it's not a spell. This is not just one Wish; it's one Wish on top of whatever other crazy contingencies are going off, whatever appropriate free actions it gets, and whatever its allies are doing to help it against you.
Deities have followers, they have allies, and they have home planes that they get to choose rules for. They generally have a few minor artifacts sitting around that would probably give them things like immunity to elements. They basically have to be asleep at the wheel or, as I said, weakened by DM Plot devices, in order for adventurers to have a plausible shot at them.
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Originally Posted by edhel I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.
Originally Posted by Malum It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.
Originally Posted by K Anything with 'Elven' in the name does more damage.
Originally Posted by Nifft I have great respect for "realism" in its natural habitat ("reality"), but I find it out of place in D&D, and on this board in particular.
Yes. Specifically, Mask's aspect of Intrigue, which at the time was part of his portfolio. None of which changes the main point of my statement, which is that it equaled hand-waving by the DM. There is no way in the rules to guarantee you get something like that; the DM would have to set it up as part of the story.
I generally find that actually killing deities for good is a matter of the DM allowing it and/or not playing the deity to potential, even in the case of 30th level characters.
I whole heartedly agree.
And i want to add that the crunch/stats of most deities are all more or less wanting. Kurtulmak could wipe the floor with Asmodeus, yet the flavour clearly suggests this cannot happen. Dicefreaks went a long way toward better deity and archfiend stats, stats that reflect the flavor and interelations between those cosmic beings. But in the end for PCs to fight a deity directly is more or less a matter of DM hand waving and/or error, it should be impossible unless the PCs themselves are entering (quasi-)deityhood already.
I use Epic Gods. I take the stats and rules from the Wrath of the Immortals, the Primal Order, 1st Edition Dieties & Demigods, 2nd Edition Legends & Lore, and 3rd Edition Dieties and Demigods (and possibly 4e when it comes out) and roll them together. If the players can ever get to the point where they could kill them, they can try. Set was a major foe in one of my games and combining everything together he was 50th level + 15 divine ranks. I still have him somewhere in my closet in an old notebook.
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Anything that happens in the game, happens because the DM allows it to. Thus stating that Gods are only killed because the DM allows it to is just restating the obvious.
The real question; is it fun? Does it make for a good game? Did the players enjoy themselves? Did it make sense in the context of the story, with the characters, and their development?
To hell with the rules details. The rules are only a framework with which to have fun.
Gods have other things going against them:
1) Other gods (and there are a lot of them hoping/wanting some other divinity to fail)
2) Hubris: "I'm IMMORTAL! (and I can make a wish as a free action every round)"
3) The gods presented in the DDG or whatever other supplement are not the JHWH or the Biblical "God": Omnipresent & Omniscient.
4) The gods should be more akin to the Greek mythos: petty, bickering, envious, vicious, devious, unpleasant, and entirely fallible.
If they don't know everything, and aren't everywhere, then what they don't know can and will indeed hurt them. Because they all do have enemies working against them 24/7/365 across the entire Omniverse.
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"If only nerdrage could be harnessed, the world would have all the renewable energy it would ever need."
-- Reigan
I honestly don't think its absurd. Maybe its too many comic books where gods are just other superheroes or my belief that there is only one omnipotent being and everything else is finite. The ancient gods died in legends, they've died in the D&D canon, and they sometimes die in my games. I generally run my vampire elders in WoD as more god-like than I run dieties in D&D.
It really depends on what you want gods to be in your campaign. Are they really just extremely powerful (but ultimately mortal) entities? If so, then it would be possible to slay them (how likely however, is another question).
It is like statting up Thor at cr66 (hypothetically). He would be a TPK for most parties, but if your PCs could somehow get to lv66, then yes, they can (and should) mop the floor with him.
Anything that happens in the game, happens because the DM allows it to. Thus stating that Gods are only killed because the DM allows it to is just restating the obvious.
Yes, but as this is a rules forum, people generally ask for ways to do things within the rules, and supporting text to back it up. My point above is that there's no way to guarantee that you get to do this within the rules.
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Originally Posted by edhel I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.
Originally Posted by Malum It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.
Originally Posted by K Anything with 'Elven' in the name does more damage.
Originally Posted by Nifft I have great respect for "realism" in its natural habitat ("reality"), but I find it out of place in D&D, and on this board in particular.
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