Just wondering if a ECL 12 character had a offering to turn into a Full vampire from Monster Manual I pg. 252, It will jump the ECL up to 20.
When the next time the character level up, Turning into ECL 21. Will he turned into Epic?
I was just wondering
No, well not exactly.
The character advances as if he had the xp of a 20th level character but all character benefits (max skill ranks, bonus feats, ability score increases, etc) except for base wealth and xp use only hit dice. So any LA does not count for those purposes (i.e., qualifying for epic feats, etc.)
Oh I understand. So He has to hit 21 levels to become epic?
In order to gain any "benefits", yes.
And if he has monster HD he can be epic but not be epic in a specific class like say he has 4 racial HD and is a 17th level fighter. He counts as an epic character due to hit dice, but he doe not count as an epic level fighter and thus doesn't get any epic fighter benefits (nor can he choose anything that requires him to be epic level fighter).
Awesome. Now that just wondering. How in the heck I can make a campaign "even" If The ECL 12 character turns into a ECL 20 character?
You don't. The character becomes a controlled undead subservient to his dark master. The player gets to make a new character.
. . . at least, that's how it usually gets handled. With the Libris Mortis vampire class, you can make a gradual transformation level-by-level.
__________________
Will save or click
Originally Posted by edhel I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.
Originally Posted by Malum It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.
Originally Posted by K Anything with 'Elven' in the name does more damage.
Originally Posted by Nifft I have great respect for "realism" in its natural habitat ("reality"), but I find it out of place in D&D, and on this board in particular.
Some passages in the DMG imply you would also gain access to epic feats at ECL 21, but you only gain feats at the usual rate. Apart from that, it's just XP.
If you are in an ECL 12 party, and you suddenly become ECL 20, you are unlikely to get enough XP to level anyway.
Some passages in the DMG imply you would also gain access to epic feats at ECL 21, but you only gain feats at the usual rate. Apart from that, it's just XP.
If you are in an ECL 12 party, and you suddenly become ECL 20, you are unlikely to get enough XP to level anyway.
It could happen. I mean, if you find a way aroumd the sunlight issue: your special abilities make you really good (Con loss sucks though).
Sadly, unless you are a spellcaster you won't gain much hps compared to lost con on average (1d4 to 1d12 is up by 4/level). But you'd likely have 20 con easy by level 20 (which is 5/level).
And who cares if PC B doesn't gain exp; some people play for the fun of it/ awesome powers.
__________________ "If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you."
and
"Go beyond the impossible, and kick reason to the curb" Kamina, from Gurren Lagann
If the entire party plays through 20, then sure, the character will eventually start leveling again. It's just that the odds are markedly in favor of the player becoming bored, the character dying, or the campaign ending first.
All in all, it's not generally recommended that you allow one player to be the equivalent of eight levels higher than the others.
__________________
Will save or click
Originally Posted by edhel I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.
Originally Posted by Malum It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.
Originally Posted by K Anything with 'Elven' in the name does more damage.
Originally Posted by Nifft I have great respect for "realism" in its natural habitat ("reality"), but I find it out of place in D&D, and on this board in particular.
All in all, it's not generally recommended that you allow one player to be the equivalent of eight levels higher than the others.
I absolutely agree with this statement.
"Balance" is all about balancing things between the players and when one player has a PC that is 8 levels higher than the others - it is generally not considered "balanced". I know I get real frustrated when my DM "favors" another player by "giving" them special things for their PC while not doing the same for the others. This is just an extreme version of that, IMO.
So what if at level 12 one guy could probably wipe out the rest of the party (or dominate them all)... at level 15+ he won't be looking so hot when the other PCs can use higher level spells and/or have twice his HP.
As long as everybody is having fun, its all good... Right?
Oh, and that vamp at ECL 24 (15 HD) is good for an Epic Feat (when normal PCs have two).
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fathers of the Game
R.I.P.
Ernest Gary Gygax | David Lance Arneson
07/27/1938 – 03/04/2008 | 10/01/1947 – 04/07/2009
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, and that vamp at ECL 24 (15 HD) is good for an Epic Feat (when normal PCs have two.)
Hmmm interesting it appears that the epic rules bypass the normal rules for ECL.
DMG pg 209
Quote:
The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using eh creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice and a +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th level fighter/3rd level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.
Vice the SRD (non-epic)
Quote:
Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.
If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.
Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.
The epic rules themselves aren't really consistent to begin with. There are 2 completely contrasting rules on how epic rules work in the FAQ.
I don't really see why a vampire PC and a vampire npc should have 2 different rates of progression for bab and saves. A fighter20 vampire npc would have bab+20 while according to the FAQ, a vampire fighter20 would never get that 4th attack because epic bab rules kick in at bab+12...
The vampire in question (15 HD, ECL 24) counts as EPIC due to his ECL, but still gains Feats based on his HD. Those two rules may seem confusing, but they don't contradict. HD 15 = 1 feat, ECL 24 = feats may be EPIC.
edit: Interesting that the vamp would gain Epic Attack/Save bonuses though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runestar
The epic rules themselves aren't really consistent to begin with. There are 2 completely contrasting rules on how epic rules work in the FAQ.
I don't really see why a vampire PC and a vampire npc should have 2 different rates of progression for bab and saves. A fighter20 vampire npc would have bab+20 while according to the FAQ, a vampire fighter20 would never get that 4th attack because epic bab rules kick in at bab+12...
Depends on when the fighter became a vamp. Clearly becoming a vamp before level 16 hurts your ability to get that 4th attack
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fathers of the Game
R.I.P.
Ernest Gary Gygax | David Lance Arneson
07/27/1938 – 03/04/2008 | 10/01/1947 – 04/07/2009
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last edited by Drowbane; 10th February 2009 at 03:04 PM..
The epic rules themselves aren't really consistent to begin with. There are 2 completely contrasting rules on how epic rules work in the FAQ.
I don't really see why a vampire PC and a vampire npc should have 2 different rates of progression for bab and saves. A fighter20 vampire npc would have bab+20 while according to the FAQ, a vampire fighter20 would never get that 4th attack because epic bab rules kick in at bab+12...
Right, but if you consider, say, an epic dragon or outsider with 30 HD, they have a full +30 BAB, which somewhat makes up for their not having class levels instead. Vampire fighter-types get the shaft because undead racial HD have the worst BAB.
__________________
Will save or click
Originally Posted by edhel I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.
Originally Posted by Malum It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.
Originally Posted by K Anything with 'Elven' in the name does more damage.
Originally Posted by Nifft I have great respect for "realism" in its natural habitat ("reality"), but I find it out of place in D&D, and on this board in particular.
Vampires advance by class lvs, rather than undead HD.
Quote:
Right, but if you consider, say, an epic dragon or outsider with 30 HD, they have a full +30 BAB, which somewhat makes up for their not having class levels instead.
Most class lvs end up being sub-par for monsters anyways, barring 1-dips for front-loaded abilities such as access to a few quick maneuvers, pounce or armour proficiency. For the same cr increase, I can either have 4 construct HD, 2 outsider/dragon HD or 1 fighterlv...hm...the benefits of that fighter lv is looking less and less attractive...
Vampires advance by class lvs, rather than undead HD.
True.
Quote:
Most class lvs end up being sub-par for monsters anyways, barring 1-dips for front-loaded abilities such as access to a few quick maneuvers, pounce or armour proficiency. For the same cr increase, I can either have 4 construct HD, 2 outsider/dragon HD or 1 fighterlv...hm...the benefits of that fighter lv is looking less and less attractive...
Well, yes. Of course, it isn't done by CR if you're a player playing an epic dragon. It's still by HD. But at epic levels you can either take a class level and get half BAB or another racial HD and get full BAB, which works out nicely in favor of racial HD.
__________________
Will save or click
Originally Posted by edhel I, for one, welcome our new petunia overlords.
Originally Posted by Malum It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.
Originally Posted by K Anything with 'Elven' in the name does more damage.
Originally Posted by Nifft I have great respect for "realism" in its natural habitat ("reality"), but I find it out of place in D&D, and on this board in particular.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
