I stumbled across this discussion while Googling other cool magic items from the MIC. After the OP mentioned his house rule about this item, I decided to look up other "broken" items.
Here's my perspective on why this item is broken, and I agree with the OP that this item is broken (and no, sadly I get no brownie points from the OP, hehe): A potion of CSW costs what, 750 GP? That will cure, on average, 3d8+5=18.5 HP average, rounded down to 18...ONCE, and it provokes an AOO. This belt can cure 4d8=18 HP, once per day and doesn't provoke. Used the 2d8 per round way, it can cure 27 points of damage, on average, in three rounds. This is a very powerful device, that can be used almost like a Potion of CSW, stored in a backpack until needed. But it recharges daily. It's like ... a very awesome item. Considering that you don't have to wear it for 24 hours beforehand, this item is broken, and severely so, compared to it's equivalent Potion of CSW. This item would almost make my cleric irrelevant at the MIC price.
So...I agree with the OP's decision about disallowing this item at the MIC price. It's so obviously broken compared to the Potion of CSW that it's not even comparable.
And I thought this was a *civil* forum...c'mon guys, the OP asked for advice, and is free to run his game the way he likes it. I have to say, it's a fun game and I'm enjoying it immensely. If he accepts your advice, kudos to you for helping him out. If he doesn't, don't take it personally and attack him as a GM. I think he's quite fair, and if I were GM'ing and saw this item, I'd have to make some difficult decisions, myself, over how to adjudicate this obviously broken item. Like a rechargeable Potion of CSW, except that it can also cure up to 27 HP per day over three rounds, every day. Unbelievable.
You asked a question and you got a lot of advice that you're choosing to ignore and just "ban" the spell instead. That's your choice. I know what I think of it.
OP asked about the item because it seemed very incongruent with the way the DMG priced healing.
The answers said the item is incongruent with the price of DMG healing items.
OP is not allowing the item because it is incongruent with the price of DMG healing items.
So...I agree with the OP's decision about disallowing this item at the MIC price. It's so obviously broken compared to the Potion of CSW that it's not even comparable.
Most DMG healing items are notoriously underpowered. Like the ring of regeneration, that can heal 24 hps in one day, and costs 90,000 gold.
That's the kind of DM-fiat that I absolutely loathe. ...
That's the civility part I was talking about. But anyway, I wanted to post something else. The MIC breaks the game because WotC wants to sell more stuff, so the stuff released after the core books tends to be more powerful, as an incentive for buying their later stuff. It's a business, after all.
grants you a +2 com
petence bonus on Spot checks. This
is a continuous effect and requires no
activation.
In addition, this circlet has 3 charges,
which are renewed each day at dawn.
Spending 1 or more charges enhances
your visual acuity as described below.
1 charge: You gain darkvision out to 60
feet for 1 hour.
2 charges:
You can see invisible crea
tures and objects (as see invisibility) for 10
minutes.
3 charges: You gain true seeing (as the
spell) for 1 minute.
So...a Gem of Seeing gives True Seeing (and True Seeing alone) for 30 minutes per day, by comparison, with no option for Darkvision. Which is the better bargain? I think the answer is obvious.
So...we can safely conclude that MIC items can be very broken, and we can safely guess WotC's rationale for doing so. I think that it's completely reasonable to disallow these broken items to preserve game balance and not penalize players who don't own these additional books. That's the kind of DM-fiat I like...since keeping game balance makes it more fun for everyone, IMHO.
Most DMG healing items are notoriously underpowered. Like the ring of regeneration, that can heal 24 hps in one day, and costs 90,000 gold.
This is why it's nice to play Clerics. They can heal well, and other sources are not as easy.
Likewise, Rogues can take down magical traps, etc. If you eliminate the exclusivity healing that only a Cleric can reliably and cheaply provide, then you reduce the incentive for playing a cleric.
This is why it's nice to play Clerics. They can heal well, and other sources are not as easy.
Likewise, Rogues can take down magical traps, etc. If you eliminate the exclusivity healing that only a Cleric can reliably and cheaply provide, then you reduce the incentive for playing a cleric.
Not really. You simply remove the incentive to play the cleric as a dedicated healbot (which not everyone may be willing to play), thus freeing him up to do other more effective stuff such as fighting. Or you can look at it another way. If nobody in your party wants to play a cleric, then at least your healing requirements are not shafted as there are viable alternatives available (such as a rogue UMD'ing wands of vigor).
Likewise, MIC item prices have to be low, else no one would ever choose them over the standard big six. The stark reality was that nobody was buying a ring of regeneration at that price, not when you could be getting a ring of protection+5 and amulet of NA+5 for almost the same amount.
MIC items only seem undercosted if you believe that the DMG items are priced correctly. In hindsight, I think we can conclude that it is actually the other way around - the majority of DMG items apart from the big six are just way too overcosted for the limited benefits they provide. That is the disease, and MIC is the cure.
Dodged? Like you're a prosecutor and I'm on trial? I think you might have a misconception about what's happening here. This is a game and I do it to have fun, not to defend myself.
I think I might not want to address your point simply to disabuse you of the notion that this is a court room.
You're taking my post way out of proportion. Seriously. I had no intention of evoking trials. I have no notion that this is a court room. I have no notion that I am a prosecutor. I have no notion that you are on trial. Your condescension is not warranted.
This is not a court room. This is the rules forum. It is a place to discuss rules. When interpreting rules, sometimes wording is very important. One such case, in my opinion, is the custom item pricing section which uses words such as "guidelines" and "estimate". Treating them as rules to be followed to the letter is, again in my opinion, misguided.
I have significant experience as a GM and as a player, and in my experience having access to items such as the healing belt makes the game more fun. Resource management is something DnD has quite a lot of. a lot of it is tedious; items like the healing belt make interesting choices available (do I blow all three charges NOW or do I just blow one for more healing over a longer period?). Interesting choices is what makes the game mechanical side of DnD fun. Again, in my opinion.
Hence my first point was raised for two reasons: I was concerned that you had misinterpreted the custom magic item pricing guidelines as ironclad rules. And, I was concerned that you were throwing away interesting choices (and hence fun) because they didn't fit those guidelines. You chose to ignore that point and went straight to my auxiliary point. I posted defensively (and I must admit, a little passive-agressively; sorry about that) and you give me back a post full of condescencion and sarcasm. That's my reading of the situation.
This is why it's nice to play Clerics. They can heal well, and other sources are not as easy.
Likewise, Rogues can take down magical traps, etc. If you eliminate the exclusivity healing that only a Cleric can reliably and cheaply provide, then you reduce the incentive for playing a cleric.
Huh, I come to exactly the opposite conclusion. If basic healing implements are rare/expensive and the cleric is the only real source of healing, then I'll want to play pretty much anything but a cleric. I mean, most of the daily spells I choose will get converted into cures, and the rest ought to be other healing type spells just in case. So I get to suck as a wannabe fighter until someone goes down. No thanks. In fact, in the games I run, I divide the price of all cure items by 10 just to avoid this and related scenarios. It works for us -- the party pushes further and we have more fun than we do retreating to the nearest heal zone. YMMV.
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Huh, I come to exactly the opposite conclusion. If basic healing implements are rare/expensive and the cleric is the only real source of healing, then I'll want to play pretty much anything but a cleric. I mean, most of the daily spells I choose will get converted into cures, and the rest ought to be other healing type spells just in case. So I get to suck as a wannabe fighter until someone goes down. No thanks. In fact, in the games I run, I divide the price of all cure items by 10 just to avoid this and related scenarios. It works for us -- the party pushes further and we have more fun than we do retreating to the nearest heal zone. YMMV.
Interesting. Divide the price of all cure items by 10. Well...I'm not saying that's wrong or "un-fun" but I do think that's quite unbalanced. But to each his own.
And I like playing a cleric with the only source of cheap and reliable healing. Don't piss off the cleric ;=) It's like being the only doctor in the party, with a few nurses who have lesser healing ability.
Not really. You simply remove the incentive to play the cleric as a dedicated healbot (which not everyone may be willing to play), thus freeing him up to do other more effective stuff such as fighting. Or you can look at it another way. If nobody in your party wants to play a cleric, then at least your healing requirements are not shafted as there are viable alternatives available (such as a rogue UMD'ing wands of vigor).
Likewise, MIC item prices have to be low, else no one would ever choose them over the standard big six. The stark reality was that nobody was buying a ring of regeneration at that price, not when you could be getting a ring of protection+5 and amulet of NA+5 for almost the same amount.
MIC items only seem undercosted if you believe that the DMG items are priced correctly. In hindsight, I think we can conclude that it is actually the other way around - the majority of DMG items apart from the big six are just way too overcosted for the limited benefits they provide. That is the disease, and MIC is the cure.
This is quite interesting. How do you explain this MIC wonder, then?
Amber amulet of vermin,
Huge monstrous scorpion 1/day summons a Huge monstrous scorpion to serve you for 1 minute 700 gp
A Huge Monstrous Scorpion has 75 HP and is a CR 7 monster. Does this seem balanced to you? Why would anyone buy a Bag of Tricks, then?
The MIC is designed to make money for WotC, and if they have to change the game mechanics to do it, they will. Bottom line, it's money...the reason why TSR does this...oops, they're out of business now...perhaps they didn't do this effectively enough.
A Healing Belt allows any character wearing it to heal 4d8, once per day. It has some other options too, but for now, let's stick with 4d8 1/day. Of course, it can be used every day, forever. It costs 750 gp.
Wasn't the price raised to 1000 GP in an errata? I can't lay my finger on the exact reference at the moment.
This is quite interesting. How do you explain this MIC wonder, then?
Amber amulet of vermin,
Huge monstrous scorpion 1/day summons a Huge monstrous scorpion to serve you for 1 minute 700 gp
A Huge Monstrous Scorpion has 75 HP and is a CR 7 monster. Does this seem balanced to you? Why would anyone buy a Bag of Tricks, then?
The MIC is designed to make money for WotC, and if they have to change the game mechanics to do it, they will. Bottom line, it's money...the reason why TSR does this...oops, they're out of business now...perhaps they didn't do this effectively enough.
WotC is a business. Of course they want to make money. However, I doubt the Healing Belt is "broken" because they wanted to increase profit. I'm pretty certain the reason behind was enough people wanted magic items that where useful, versatile, and actually affordable. Many of the core items in the DMG are jacked up. Why should you have to pay 750gp for a crappy potion of Cure Serious Wounds that you can use once? It seems like a big waste of money, to me. Many people don't like playing clerics for the sole purpose that they become Band Aids instead of using their spells for what they want to use them for. Have an item like the Healing Belt offers some decent healing at a low price, and the item is reusable. Oh my god!! A useful item? It must be broken! Kill it, kill it!!
Give me a break. The OP and some others need to lighten up, and stop crying "broken" at every little thing that is actually useful and magical.
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I don't want the Tyranny of Fun to become one of PF RPG's design principles. That's 4e's province, and I'd happily leave it that way.
his is quite interesting. How do you explain this MIC wonder, then?
Amber amulet of vermin,
Huge monstrous scorpion
1/day summons a Huge monstrous scorpion to serve you for 1 minute
700 gp
A Huge Monstrous Scorpion has 75 HP and is a CR 7 monster. Does this seem balanced to you? Why would anyone buy a Bag of Tricks, then?
There are likely to be a few outliers who fall outside the mold (in that I believe this to be an honest pricing mistake by wotc), but overall, I find the MIC offerings quite balanced for their reduced cost. Admit it - who would consider using a belt of healing if it was priced at the DMG guideline of 2500gp?
Same here. Who would normally buy a bag of tricks in the first place? The amulet may be a little undercosted, but not by much, at any rate.
Another reason I like MIC is that it makes these little charged eq cheap enough to be used by monsters (who are normally gimped by very crappy wealth guidelines), great for adding a little variety or rounding out their abilities (and unlike potions, the items can be looted by the party when they defeat the foe). Imagine the horror when a dragon is wearing a belt of battle (move + full attack), a giant uses a belt of 1 mighty blow or bracers of counterstriking to augment its attack, or a wizard adds up to 72 temp hp to fortify his normally anemic hp.
Wasn't the price raised to 1000 GP in an errata? I can't lay my finger on the exact reference at the moment.
I believe you might be quoting a GiantITP thread, where one poster apparently incorrectly quoted his DM's ruling as Errata:
---------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iku Rex WotC hasn't published free errata for years. Why waste some intern's time when they already have your money? So, no errata for the healing belt.
You may be right... I was going by what my DM said. Still, the craft cost / item cost doesn't match, so one of them has to be wrong. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58969
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The Belt of Healing just costs 50 gp more than the "less powerful" Amber Amulet of Vermin, Huge Monstrous Scorpion, which sells for 700 gp.
What am I thinking...of COURSE this is balanced! The DMG is just wrong. I don't even know why WotC printed that "Core Rulebook II" in the first place....
WotC is a business. Of course they want to make money. However, I doubt the Healing Belt is "broken" because they wanted to increase profit. I'm pretty certain the reason behind was enough people wanted magic items that where useful, versatile, and actually affordable. Many of the core items in the DMG are jacked up. Why should you have to pay 750gp for a crappy potion of Cure Serious Wounds that you can use once? It seems like a big waste of money, to me. Many people don't like playing clerics for the sole purpose that they become Band Aids instead of using their spells for what they want to use them for. Have an item like the Healing Belt offers some decent healing at a low price, and the item is reusable. Oh my god!! A useful item? It must be broken! Kill it, kill it!!
Give me a break. The OP and some others need to lighten up, and stop crying "broken" at every little thing that is actually useful and magical.
Money is precisely why later publications contain more "broken" stuff. To think otherwise is naive, considering what happened to TSR. And if you actually think that this is a balanced book, please explain how a 700 gp magic item can conceivably easily defeat a 4-person, balanced party of 4th level PCs, which any 2nd level PC could buy, along with a Potion of Invisibility. Drink the potion, use the Amber Amulet of Vermin, Huge Monstrous Scorpion, and watch the carnage. Sure...this is balanced.
At the end of the day, it's a game-style thing. The OP would probably freak if someone wanted to play a Dragon Shaman, despite conventional wisdom being that the DS sucks.
Being able to dish out large amounts of damage and restrict players ability to heal it is something some folks like for their games. Other people aren't as interested in the resource management of hit points and how much you can get back for what cost and all that. *shrug* No biggie. You don't have to play in his game, nor do you have to have him in yours, so cut him some slack. If his players hate it, they'll quit or say something. If they don't, he'll keep running the game.
Either way it's not like you're going to change his mind right now. Just tell yourself, "I'm man enough to let him be wrong and don't have to try and prove it." and move on.
To say that the entire book reeks of blatant power creep just because of 1 or 2 black sheep seems a little unreasonable. The other items seem fairly balanced. How many other items have been abused thus far? Can't think of any. Apart from a few bad eggs, the rest simply add more options to your party, without requiring you to pay though your nose.
When you see most members of a party trying to acquire one of this, you know it's broken, specially when you know what style of players you have at the gaming table.
if you are playing in a group with no access to divine healing, I would allow it.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the belt is broken, but I would say it is seriously undervalued in the MIC, compared to existing healing items...
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This is quite interesting. How do you explain this MIC wonder, then?
[font=Arial][size=1]Amber amulet of vermin,
Huge monstrous scorpion
[size=1][font=Arial][font=Arial][size=1]1/day summons a Huge monstrous scorpion to serve you for 1 minute 700 gp
[size=1][font=Arial]A Huge Monstrous Scorpion has 75 HP and is a CR 7 monster. Does this seem balanced to you? Why would anyone buy a Bag of Tricks, then?
I explain it by referring you to the official errata for the MIC where they correct the size. It is supposed to be a Large scorpion, not Huge.
As for the Belt of Healing, I like being able to afford a decent magic item by third level. If MIC had a failing, it was that it didn't go far enough and reprice the items in the DMG.
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