Now, I'm NOT saying that the MIC is useless and just out to make money. I'm saying that WotC is out to make money and provide a good product, but some items are unbalanced. Overall, the MIC has some very useful and balanced items - the Vest of Resistance, for example.
But there are some items that are just out of whack with the current pricing of magic items compared to the DMG. THAT is my point. Now one could reshape game balance to make magic more plentiful and cheap in one's world, sure, that's also fine.
My point is that without reshaping the magic item economy, some items are broken. I think that there is some consipratorial elements from WotC in that money is a huge factor in their motivation for releasing some unbalanced items (they know that some things are unbalanced) because they know that especially power gamers will buy those books to get an edge.
So I'm saying, therefore, that the OP is right for disallowing some items from the MIC or other books in order to maintain game balance as described in the DMG. I'm also saying that allowing all items and having a different pricing system for magic is also fine, but not balanced with the DMG's pricing.
And for the record, the OP did allow a dragon shaman, FYI.
But there are some items that are just out of whack with the current pricing of magic items compared to the DMG. THAT is my point.
Which we have never denied.
My point is that this disparity is intentional. The guidelines in the DMG are just that - guidelines, and as with any 1-size-fits-all template, it cannot possibly price every magic item accurately. Otherwise, you end up with stuff like items of persistent mage armour being cheaper than bracers of armour+4, or a wand of CLW-at-will at just 2000gp.
The biggest offender was the npc cr guidelines. The item pricing rules comes a close second. The best solution was always to just look at each item and price it based on its own merit (using viable alternatives as yardsticks). Just look at the ring of regeneration. You should never have a reason to have to regrow limbs, and at 1 hp/hour, the 24 hp healed each day is actually inferior to that from the healing belt. This means that the ring of regen should actually cost less than a healing belt, definitely a far cry from its exhorbitant 90000gp price tag!
I really couldn't care less what the OP allows or bans in his games (since I am not a member), but I think to conclude that an item is overpowered simply because it deviates from the DMG pricing guidelines...
i explain it by referring you to the official errata for the mic where they correct the size. It is supposed to be a large scorpion, not huge.
As for the belt of healing, i like being able to afford a decent magic item by third level. If mic had a failing, it was that it didn't go far enough and reprice the items in the dmg.
qft.
__________________ Enemies are the price of Honor. ~Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander, Wizard of the First Order
Fear. Fear attracts the fearful. The strong. The weak. The innocent. The corrupt. Fear. Fear is my ally. ~Darth Maul
No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try. ~Yoda
I don't want the Tyranny of Fun to become one of PF RPG's design principles. That's 4e's province, and I'd happily leave it that way.
Everyone loves a good Monty Haul game where you can acquire powerful magic items at low character levels, right? The MIC certainly helps in this regard.
________________
Power gamers of the world, unite!
Last edited by blacktie347; 13th April 2009 at 10:25 AM..
Wow. I was also about to post in the Monopoly forum that I don't do the "landing on Free Parking = cash money" thing. What have I been thinking?
Exactly! The game is much more fun when you give people $500 for landing on free parking and the option to then upgrade all of their houses to hotels immediately at no cost. Unless everyone starts doing that, in which case that rule would then become broken, but not until then, as one person pointed out earlier =)
Everyone loves a good Monty Haul game where you can acquire powerful magic items at low character levels, right? The MIC certainly helps in this regard.
________________
Power gamers of the world, unite!
Keep up the strawman.
The items are balanced for their cost. So it certainly won't break any sort of balance even if players are allowed to acquire them at lower levels, so long as the DM does not give them to the party any sooner than they are supposed to (using the level guidelines in the MIC).
Allowing a belt of healing at 3rd lv is no more overpowering than letting the fighter access to masterwork fullplate at 4th lv. If anything, it at least gives them something to look forward to other than masterwork eq and low lv consumables.
The DMG had a dearth of useful low-lv magic items.
Imho, the Healing Belt from MIC actually _helps_ to _restore_ game balance. It's an excellent item that should be pretty useful in pretty much every campaign. I definitely encourage my players to get one of these for their characters.
I didn't read the whole thread, but I'd like to point out another item from the MIC that changed my game in a good way: The artificer's monocle.
Yay, no more stupid hunting for black pearls!
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktie347
But there are some items that are just out of whack with the current pricing of magic items compared to the DMG. THAT is my point. Now one could reshape game balance to make magic more plentiful and cheap in one's world, sure, that's also fine.
Well, arguing that the DMG item creation rules are balanced seems a bit wacky to me. They may work for about 80% of the items, but for the rest they lead to grossly miscosted items (in both directions: cheap items that are overpowered and expensive items that don't do much of anything).
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktie347
My point is that without reshaping the magic item economy, some items are broken.
Any my point is that sticking to the DMG item creation rules will result in a lot more broken items than allowing the MIC items.
After reading the MIC I immediately banned custom item creation. That did wonders for the balance of my game!
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktie347
So I'm saying, therefore, that the OP is right for disallowing some items from the MIC or other books in order to maintain game balance as described in the DMG.
Of course the OP is free to ban some of the items in the MIC. I just don't think it's necessary. I'd strongly recommend to give them a try first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktie347
I'm also saying that allowing all items and having a different pricing system for magic is also fine, but not balanced with the DMG's pricing.
Yup, replacing a system that didn't work well (DMG pricing) with one that does (MIC) may have an effect on your game's balance - in a good way!
Wow, I'm surprised at the emotional level of this thread!
Here's the issue as I see it, and I think some of you have been trying to say this, but the message has gotten a bit lost.
The DMG and MIC have two different pricing schemes, a lower-magic one and a higher-magic one (neither one is perfectly balanced, either). The problem is that they are kind of meshed together, which leads to inconsistencies. It would have been nice if the MIC tables had repriced the DMG items to the MIC system, so we could have a consistent high-magic pricing (note that some of the SRD psionic items did get repriced in the MIC). It also would have been nice (but WotC would never have gone against whatever their current design philosophy was) if they'd had a listing of MIC items more consistent with the DMG prices.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I like Monty Haul games where magic is cheap and plentiful. Sure it breaks game balance...or "restores" it to a level where magic is more powerful...certain classes lose exclusivity...WotC designed these power books with YOU in mind! Keep lapping it up.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I like Monty Haul games where magic is cheap and plentiful. Sure it breaks game balance...or "restores" it to a level where magic is more powerful...certain classes lose exclusivity...WotC designed these power books with YOU in mind! Keep lapping it up.
You want to redefine your terms.
Monty Haul= more wealth per level than DMg indicates.
It has nothing to do with plentiful magic (not having it plentiful would be low magic game world; which isn't DMG guidelines either).
So yeah.
__________________ "If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you."
and
"Go beyond the impossible, and kick reason to the curb" Kamina, from Gurren Lagann
3.0 and 3.5 are both very "resource dependant" games. Towards the end of 3.5, there were a large number of things released to lessen the amound of resource dependence. This includes the Healing Belt and other infinite use items (less dependence on casters and inventory), Reserve casting feats (less dependence on low level spells or back-up items), mulit-function items (less dependence on slots), and countless other uber-items.
When all of these new things are added in together, with all parties having access, they do not break the game. The game can still be played by all, with party balance, and lots of fun. Some people will even enjoy the game more without resource management. The problem is that the removal of resource dependence is not balanced with the core 3.5 material. It significantly changes major aspects of the game, from pricing, to party roles, to daily cycles. If you are playing in a game with limited non-core material, or without acounting for these changes, these items will cause major problems.
__________________ We're sorry, we are unable to Cthulhu.boat. Please migraine the cattle prod when the fat guitar makes wallpaper. If the sun is too long, take five ducks and melt them on a post. Thank you for your Volkswagon. -SJ
Monty Haul= more wealth per level than DMg indicates.
It has nothing to do with plentiful magic (not having it plentiful would be low magic game world; which isn't DMG guidelines either).
So yeah.
The MIC does provide more power per level than the DMG indicates. Heck, a 750 gp Belt of Healing provides more renewable HP healing per day on average than a 90,000 gp Ring of Regeneration!
Unless you can find me an official and agreed-upon definition of "Monty Haul" I'm going to define it as more "stuff" than the DMG envisions.
Perhaps you haven't taken Macroeconomics yet. When stuff is cheap, there will be more of it on the market, because more people will buy it. So when a Belt of Healing provides more HP healing than a 90k gp Ring of Regeneration, just about everyone and their mother will buy one if they can and need regular healing. So that's where magic becomes more plentiful.
This is an extra logical step that I guess I should have not expected everyone to realize on their own. Have you taken Macroeconomics yet? I didn't mean to talk down to you there.
3.0 and 3.5 are both very "resource dependant" games. Towards the end of 3.5, there were a large number of things released to lessen the amound of resource dependence. This includes the Healing Belt and other infinite use items (less dependence on casters and inventory), Reserve casting feats (less dependence on low level spells or back-up items), mulit-function items (less dependence on slots), and countless other uber-items.
When all of these new things are added in together, with all parties having access, they do not break the game. The game can still be played by all, with party balance, and lots of fun. Some people will even enjoy the game more without resource management. The problem is that the removal of resource dependence is not balanced with the core 3.5 material. It significantly changes major aspects of the game, from pricing, to party roles, to daily cycles. If you are playing in a game with limited non-core material, or without acounting for these changes, these items will cause major problems.
I agree. The OP's game in question is Core-based with limited expansion on an item-by-item basis (as is another game that I play in regularly).
The MIC does provide more power per level than the DMG indicates. Heck, a 750 gp Belt of Healing provides more renewable HP healing per day on average than a 90,000 gp Ring of Regeneration!
...and the vast majority of people have been saying that the ring of regeneration sucks and is vastly overpriced since the DMG came out. You know why it's so expensive? Because in prior editions it actually provided regeneration--the equivalent of Regeneration 5 in 3e. The devs changed the effect but left the price the same. Most of the MIC stuff isn't "Yay, we're so much more powerful now! Thank you, MIC!" it's "Yay, some of this stuff is actually worth buying, unlike the DMG stuff! Thank you, MIC!"
It's like the Tome of Battle: Some folks hate it, because they think it's making fighters obsolete and this is a Bad Thing. Most folks like it, because they realize the 3e fighter has pretty much always been obsolete, and now they can play a fighter-type and enjoy it. Restoration of balance, not breaking thereof.
Quote:
Perhaps you haven't taken Macroeconomics yet. When stuff is cheap, there will be more of it on the market, because more people will buy it. So when a Belt of Healing provides more HP healing than a 90k gp Ring of Regeneration, just about everyone and their mother will buy one if they can and need regular healing. So that's where magic becomes more plentiful.
This is an extra logical step that I guess I should have not expected everyone to realize on their own. Have you taken Macroeconomics yet? I didn't mean to talk down to you there.
Thank you for the condescension--it's really appreciated. Here's an example the macroeconomics major might understand better.
The Ring of Regeneration is a $5,000,000 Honda. Great car...but no one in their right mind would buy it, since it's ridiculously expensive. It used to be a $5,000,000 Boeing 747--a ridiculously good bargain--but Boeing was bought out and they turned it into a Honda while keeping the same name, to fool people used to the old name.
Potions of Cure Serious Wounds, Wands of Cure Critical Wounds, etc. are $300,000 Fords. Yeah, you can get them, but no one really wants to.
Wands of Cure Light Wounds are $30,000 Saabs. They're well-priced, they're reliable, and generally people like them.
Your generic +X ability enhancers are $50,000 college tuition loans. Given that everyone must have one of these things, what car is actually worth the money? A $5,000,000 Honda, a $300,000 Ford, or a $30,000 Saab? The Saab, of course. Does that mean it's a Monty Haul car, that it's too cheap? No; it's rationally priced, and the others are too expensive.
The DMG rules for generating magic items are IMHO fundamentally flawed due to what they are based off of, which are spells. Just as you have spells that are considered underpowered or must have, magic items which derive their abilities from these spells will have the same issues.
I'm surprised no one has yet brought up that you can get unlimited healing per day by creating a command word activated item imbued with cure minor wounds and create this item for 900 gold.
.5 * 1 * 1800 = 900
If we wanted to get really crazy and make the LG cleric his own special item (he has 5 ranks in heal) we could create an item only usable by a LG cleric with ranks in heal for:
900*.7*.7*.9 = 397
It wouldn't be good at all for in combat healing but it would definately work just fine for out of combat healing.
__________________ "Was the Paladin's name Sir Lollerskates, and the Xixecal's name OMG'NERF? - One of my players, upon hearing that a level 36 paladin killed a Xixecal in one round.
Love the comparison of the college tuition and the cars.
But yeah, I think it was actually in the foreword of the MIC where the designers discussed the reasoning behind the pricing of the items.
The core items (stat enhancers, resist vest/cloak) were the baseline items. They wanted to price things so that you actually had to make a choice rather than go with the assumed stat items.
Also, healing was made to be much easier to come by in the latter days of 3.5. If you look at the various feats, classes, items and spells, it definitely fit the pattern that out of combat healing was assumed to be available.
__________________ A free online fantasy humor comic.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
