I've not found belts of healing to be a problem in our games, though a couple of PCs own one.
I personally have much more issue with the teleportation items, like dimension stride boots and anklets of translocation. Those -- and quite a few other items from the MIC -- won't be in my next game (or will be modified).
__________________ Jeff Wilder, San Francisco Bay Area If your sig is longer than your posts, your sig is too
long. Nobody reads it, they just get annoyed by it. And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me. - Belly
LOL. Justify it to yourself however you want, complain about DMG pricing all you want. Compared to the Core rulebooks, this is seriously overpowered. If you're so used to overpowered adventures that using "weak" stuff seems lame, fine. But compared to the DMG, these MIC items are Monty Haul stuff.
And no, I'm not an economics major. In fact, a Macroeconomics major does not exist; that is but one class of a typical Economics department in college. You'll find that out, perhaps, if you go to college oneday.
Compare Ring of Regeneration to Core items: 6 Wands of ClW. It would take 15 levels before the Ring comes even with the six wands. By then you are level 33 or something: where the ring is chicken feed.
Even in Core the Ring sucks.
__________________ "If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you."
and
"Go beyond the impossible, and kick reason to the curb" Kamina, from Gurren Lagann
The MIC does provide more power per level than the DMG indicates. Heck, a 750 gp Belt of Healing provides more renewable HP healing per day on average than a 90,000 gp Ring of Regeneration!
More, on average, than a ring of regeneration? What level character are we talking about here? A 1st level character? Because that ring of regeneration restores 1 hit point per level every hour. A 10th level character may be getting back up to 240 hit points from that ring (assuming he takes that much damage while wearing the ring).
Worth the 90,000? I'm not sure, but better than a belt of healing? Far and away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktie347
Perhaps you haven't taken Macroeconomics yet. When stuff is cheap, there will be more of it on the market, because more people will buy it. So when a Belt of Healing provides more HP healing than a 90k gp Ring of Regeneration, just about everyone and their mother will buy one if they can and need regular healing. So that's where magic becomes more plentiful.
This is an extra logical step that I guess I should have not expected everyone to realize on their own. Have you taken Macroeconomics yet? I didn't mean to talk down to you there.
That would be microeconomics you're talking about there. The small scale decisions that determine supply and demand and price...
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
The healing belt is pretty cool. . . it does little harm to the game balance. It's a question of utility, and how much the presence of the item can change the overall outcome of the game session. Frankly, getting a single heal one a day for free does little.
On the other hand, a once a day Freedom of Movement, Fire Shield, or Improved Invisibility, is absolutely broken at that price. They can have a much greater effect on the outcomes of the game.
Also, why is anyone on this thread using modern free market principals to describe the economic situation of characters who live in a mideval fantasy world? The inclusion of a "Bob's Bargain Basement - We Buy/Sell/Trade/Make Anything!" in every city, town, and hamlet of your campaign world is, as far as I can tell, optional.
__________________ Our mistake, you see, was to write interminable large operas, which had to fill an entire evening. And now along comes someone with a one or two-act opera without all that pompous nonsense - that was a happy reform. - Verdi
The way it looks to me is that the cleric got extra character power because it was assumed that his resources would be used for combat healing and that the cleric had to carry the rogue's weight in combat against the undead. If the clerics actions in combat don't have to be burned away healing, that makes the cleric much stronger than the class is meant to be. Also if the rogue is all of a sudden sneaking attacking the undead, then the cleric is no longer needed to pick up the rogue's slack.
To allow either of those without also nerfing the cleric is a mistake IMHO.
The inclusion of the MIC items affects the entire economy, which is at the macro level, although you would otherwise be correct if I were referring to individuals or things on a smaller scale, which would be micro. I was not. However, I am impressed with your limited knowledge of economics =)
blacktie347, I've just edited your post #60 in this thread. Please double-check our rules, ratchet back your instincts towards rudeness and condescension, and email me if you have any questions. Thanks.
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...and the vast majority of people have been saying that the ring of regeneration sucks and is vastly overpriced since the DMG came out. You know why it's so expensive?
...
Here's an example the macroeconomics major might understand better.
Does that help?
PirateCat, I was responding to two parts from Eldritch_Lord's statement. Sure, I can see that my original post could be deemed condescending because I speculated that Eldritch_Lord might realize more about Economics in college. Let me restate the main points from post 60 that are more neutral in tone.
1. The items in the MIC are overpowered compared to the DMG. I and others have mentioned examples of this. The rationale is irrelevant; the comparison is evident.
2. I was not, nor am not, nor have I implied that I was a "macroeconomics major". To my knowledge, that major does not exist. I believe you might be referring to an economics major, which does exist.
I'll try to keep my posts more neutral if that would be better, PirateCat. Unless you disagree with the content of this post, in which I would be happy to discuss that with you.
1. The items in the MIC are overpowered compared to the DMG. I and others have mentioned examples of this. The rationale is irrelevant; the comparison is evident.
Which I have been repeatedly explaining as expected and a necessary step towards correcting the obvious item pricing errors/discrepancies in the DMG. You keep harping on that one point as though it were supposed to mean something, but my point now, as always is that it doesn't count for anything.
Yes, it deviates from the DMG norms. SO WHAT??? If something is erroneous, it should be corrected. Just that wotc prefers to released its so-called errata in the form of supplements we have to pay for (think rules compendium) rather than free PDFs.
Quote:
2. I was not, nor am not, nor have I implied that I was a "macroeconomics major". To my knowledge, that major does not exist. I believe you might be referring to an economics major, which does exist.
Which is kinda ironic, given that a few posts back, you certainly were giving us the impression that you were some sort of expert in economics, and were attempting to use that information to refute our points (however irrelevant it may be).
Now someone gives a very good analogy using cars to demonstrate what MIC is to DMG, and you suddenly make an about-face and go "Actually, I am not all that good, so it doesn't really matter that you are suddenly citing excellent examples that I cannot answer."
To which, I say: DnD is not a real-life economy anyways. It is simply an artificial one created for the sole purpose of allowing PCs to dump their useless gear and purchase the eq which they need/want.
So what if a higher demand ought to result in a higher supply of healing belts? The DM is ultimately in control of how plentiful or readily accessible they are in his campaign world. The desigers price the MIC items based on how useful they are, not on how they are supposed to interact on a supply-and-demand basis in a real-life economy.
I like that you attribute positive motives to WotC for releasing supplements that increase the power allowed in the core books. They're "correcting" errors, apparently.
I've already mentioned that WotC is a business, which intends to make more money by releasing supplements that people will want to buy, and which will attract power gamers in particular.
I disagree with you that WotC is correcting errors, but rather would speculate that between releases of editions of D&D, WotC is attempting to generate more profit and avoid TSR's fate. But apparently that is irrelevant to you.
Regarding my knowledge of economics, I merely took Microeconomics and Macroeconomics in college and high school, and applied that basic theory to a fantasy realm, since economies did exist in midieval days. Sure, a DM can rule that econonies aren't relevant, but assuming that they do, then it is relevant. Particularly so since the OP's game does have an economy, so it is relevant to this particular thread.
Wow. I was also about to post in the Monopoly forum that I don't do the "landing on Free Parking = cash money" thing. What have I been thinking?
The belt does take up a slot and 750 is a lot of gold for low level characters. My group whether I played or DM has always pooled money to get wands for the cleric to use because they cost so much. The item is very good for its price. It allows the cleric to do something besides heal all day, making the class more attractive. It takes up a spell slot which means melee types have to make a choice between staying power and killing power meaning it is not an obvious choice which is something to look at before calling something broken.
I consider wands to be overprice but the law of supply and demand says low level clerics don't have a lot of heal spells so the party almost has to have them. I would pay about 1000 max for the belt because giving me 20 points of healing is not worth more than that especially when the item already takes up a slot. Once you get to the mid-levels a character can take 20 points of damage if the enemy breathes(almost any hit) on them. Someone could by 3 or 4 belts but they would need the money. At low levels the money is not there, and at higher levels it becomes inefficient to do so.
Okay, after this post, I'm not going to repeat points again in this thread, at least.
A Potion of Cure Serious Wounds costs 750 gp, which can cure 3d8+5 HP for an average of 18 HPs, once. The belt costs the same but can do the same every day. The "slot" is not relevant because the belt does not need to be worn for a period of time before use, except in combat. So the belt is way more powerful than the Potion which cures the same amount. Both the belt and the potion can be used by any class.
A Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds costs 375 gp, which cures approximately the same amount of HP damage, but can normally only be used by a divine spellcaster. The difference in price accounts for "requirement" that a cleric/druid uses the magic.
Having a Belt of Healing is unbalanced compared with these prices. It's nice that your group likes using the Belt of Healing and that you don't think that it's overpowered...enjoy that addition to the game. However, I don't think that it quite balances the same way with comparable healing items in the DMG, which is my point, and has been for some time.
I like that you attribute positive motives to WotC for releasing supplements that increase the power allowed in the core books. They're "correcting" errors, apparently.
For MIC at least, I have not seen any substantiated evidence to the contrary. Do you honestly believe that the pricing guidelines in the DMG are absolutely correct and error-free, and are to be followed to the letter, regardless of what future supplements say that may contradict those guidelines?
Quote:
I disagree with you that WotC is correcting errors, but rather would speculate that between releases of editions of D&D, WotC is attempting to generate more profit and avoid TSR's fate. But apparently that is irrelevant to you.
It is not so much that it is irrelevant, but more that it does not seem to be the case for MIC here. I still fail to see how MIC results in blatant power creep, when all it does is introduce affordable (and balanced) magic items for players to use.
I don't deny that the purpose for MIC was more revenue, but that still does not mean that the book is necessarily game-breaking, nor does it make the information in the book any less credible.
It is like the rules compendium. The book seems like something that the designers should have released as free weekly articles on their wotc website, but they opted to bundle them as a book to sell. But that certainly does not make the information contained within any less correct or valuable.
Quote:
A Potion of Cure Serious Wounds costs 750 gp, which can cure 3d8+5 HP for an average of 18 HPs, once.
Has it then ever occured to you, that perhaps it is the potion of cure serious wounds that is severely overpriced? It is pretty much suicidal to use one during combat (you provoke an AoO for quaffing a potion, so you might possibly end up killing yourself before you even get to drink that healing potion). And outside of combat, its benefits pale in comparison to that of a wand of CLW.
Even before MIC came out, I would never ever contemplate spending that much gold on healing potions. When MIC came out, all it did was assure me that my belief bad always been correct.
Okay, after this post, I'm not going to repeat points again in this thread, at least.
Promise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktie347
A Potion of Cure Serious Wounds costs 750 gp, which can cure 3d8+5 HP for an average of 18 HPs, once. The belt costs the same but can do the same every day. The "slot" is not relevant because the belt does not need to be worn for a period of time before use, except in combat. So the belt is way more powerful than the Potion which cures the same amount. Both the belt and the potion can be used by any class.
A Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds costs 375 gp, which cures approximately the same amount of HP damage, but can normally only be used by a divine spellcaster. The difference in price accounts for "requirement" that a cleric/druid uses the magic.
Having a Belt of Healing is unbalanced compared with these prices. It's nice that your group likes using the Belt of Healing and that you don't think that it's overpowered...enjoy that addition to the game. However, I don't think that it quite balances the same way with comparable healing items in the DMG, which is my point, and has been for some time.
If you believe that the DMG pricing guidelines are infallible and sacrosanct, then yes, the MIC is pretty much as "borkenz!" as it gets. If, on the other hand, you suspect that there's something seriously wrong with the DMG pricing guidelines, then you may want to give the MIC another look.
__________________ It's times like this I wish I had 500 foot bottle of tequila.
Potions of Cure Serious Wounds, Wands of Cure Critical Wounds, etc. are $300,000 Fords.
Wands of Cure Light Wounds are $30,000 Saabs.
The wand of CLW is a donkey. In the middle ages, it would cost an average person (a peasant) about half of a years worth of wages to buy a donkey at a market*.
The Belt of Healing is a Honda Civic. Today, it would cost an average person (middle class, first world country) about a half of a years worth of wages to buy one new*.
Both the price of the donkey in the middle ages and a new Honda Civic in 2009 are reasonably priced when you consider the monetary cost, the usefulness that an owner gets out of them, and what other options are available at the time. Just about everyone would agree that the Civic is a better option for travel, but there are some people take pleasure in imagining what life was like back in the middle ages and what it would be like to be a hero, adventuring in a fantastical world long before Civics were available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktie347
Very intelligent post, by the way =)
Thanks much. The MIC is a book that took me a very long time to get my head around.
__________________ We're sorry, we are unable to Cthulhu.boat. Please migraine the cattle prod when the fat guitar makes wallpaper. If the sun is too long, take five ducks and melt them on a post. Thank you for your Volkswagon. -SJ
Last edited by Deset Gled; 14th April 2009 at 05:27 AM..
Reason: *Monetary values greatly estimated/exagerated for the purpose of this analogy.
Has it then ever occured to you, that perhaps it is the potion of cure serious wounds that is severely overpriced? It is pretty much suicidal to use one during combat (you provoke an AoO for quaffing a potion, so you might possibly end up killing yourself before you even get to drink that healing potion). And outside of combat, its benefits pale in comparison to that of a wand of CLW.
Even before MIC came out, I would never ever contemplate spending that much gold on healing potions. When MIC came out, all it did was assure me that my belief bad always been correct.
That's been an issue in my games too. I have yet to see a PC actually take Brew Potion and consider it a worthwhile investment. The other low-level item creation feats have been quite popular by comparison.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
PirateCat, I was responding to two parts from Eldritch_Lord's statement. Sure, I can see that my original post could be deemed condescending because I speculated that Eldritch_Lord might realize more about Economics in college. Let me restate the main points from post 60 that are more neutral in tone.
Just so you're aware, blacktie, I'm currently a college freshman and am taking an economics course at the moment, which is why I took a bit of offense at your condescending tone. I referred to you as a macroeconomics major because (A) you were making such a big deal about it and (B) you were muddling the macro/micro distinction. I should probably have used a smiley, but I wasn't thinking about that at the time.
No hard feelings on the tone; just be more careful next time.
Quote:
The wand of CLW is a donkey. In the middle ages, it would cost an average person (a peasant) about half of a years worth of wages to buy a donkey at a market*.
The Belt of Healing is a Honda Civic. Today, it would cost an average person (middle class, first world country) about a half of a years worth of wages to buy one new*.
Both the price of the donkey in the middle ages and a new Honda Civic in 2009 are reasonably priced when you consider the monetary cost, the usefulness that an owner gets out of them, and what other options are available at the time. Just about everyone would agree that the Civic is a better option for travel, but there are some people take pleasure in imagining what life was like back in the middle ages and what it would be like to be a hero, adventuring in a fantastical world long before Civics were available.
It would cost an average person the same relative amounts, yes, but a medieval noble would have many donkeys (or the equivalent in horses, cattle, etc.), giving the equivalent in horsepower (er, donkeypower) to the Civic and the equivalent in prestige as well. Considering that most adventurers would be upper middle- to upper class given all of the wealth they accumulate, it would certainly make more sense to have the Civic, no?
So, Runestar, if I follow your comment to the logical conclusion, you're saying that the Healing Belt can't be priced at 750 gp using the DMG magic item rules, because the MIC authors decided to bypass those rules as too limiting?
That's what happened. It also lead designers to ignore spell schools and create spells and designate them as belonging to incorrect schools, etc... Anything outside of core books needs to be checked for adhering to the basic game rules.
__________________ Being a DM does not require that you check your brain at the door. Much to the chagrin of munchkins & powergamers.
That's what happened. It also lead designers to ignore spell schools and create spells and designate them as belonging to incorrect schools, etc... Anything outside of core books needs to be checked for adhering to the basic game rules.
While this is true, it assumes that the core of the game is better balance than the supplements.
Which, is somewhat laughable.
For all the claims that the supplements increased the power of PCs, the fact is, 80% of the feats, base and prestige classes released pretty much blew monkey chunks when compared to the standard PHB.
There isn't one 3.5 PHB supplement IMO, that was as overpowering compared to core as say the 2e Complete Book of Elves was to the 2e PHB (now THERE, that's blatant power creep).
Sure, we get things like Shivering Touch (what were they thinking there?), Initiate of the Seven Veils and the Archivist but the VAST majority of stuff released fall more along the lines of the Scout (a poor man rogue) and Samurai (why is this class worse than the fighter).
Most spellcasting prestige classes actually had dead levels, none of the melee base classes released could equal a PHB-built barbarian (even the Bo9S melee classes can't match the damage output of an equivalent levelled Barbarian) and frankly, most spells released pretty much were worse than the PHB.
That would be microeconomics you're talking about there. The small scale decisions that determine supply and demand and price...
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