If something in the core rules is busted, go ahead and fix the core, don't have us shell out for splatbook band-aids.
Or, at the very least, accompany the splatbook band-aids with an appropriate list of 'fixes' for the core material (indicating new pricing for core items to indicate this is what the authors of the new material have in mind).
Now, we have either very low prices for MIC material (when compared to DMG), or very high prices for DMG material (when compared to MIC), regardless of which of the two is 'correct'.
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I think that the designers rethought healing item pricing due to the attractiveness of divine casters in 3.5 being much higher than in previous editions.
My thoughts are maybe the healing items in the DMG were priced so high so that people would not be able to afford to not have a cleric in the party.
With all of the abilities released in splatbooks and even in core clerics and druids are certainly not neglected in parties and so there is an incentive to play them even if magical healing items are cheap.
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While I appreacite the socratic method thing you have going on in your last few posts, I'd really like to understand your point of view. Would you like to give your interepretation of what the quote means to you, i.e. monty haul campaigns?
Perhaps you can compare that to a DM's adherence to table 5-1 on pg 135 of the 3.5 DMG (the one that gives "balanced" wealth by character level). Is adherance to this table in a 3.5 game considered "monty haul"? DId 1st edition EVER offer such an attempt at balance?
Furthermore, back to the OP's question, where does table 5-1 fit on the different scales of prices offered by items in the DMG vs. the MIC?
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Last edited by Sparafucile; 17th April 2009 at 09:22 PM..
Each to their own, but this type of approach really irks me. If something in the core rules is busted, go ahead and fix the core, don't have us shell out for splatbook band-aids...
However, as this discussion is exemplifying there are people out there that refuse to believe that a fix was in order. For them it is easier to argue 'I ban the MIC in my games' than to say 'I ban errata to the core books'.
You say that like it's an objective truth -- "a fix was in order." What if someone likes the DMG system? What if they want a low-magic campaign where the only items available are those in the DMG, and only at the outratgeous prices that are listed? Is such a person "refusing to believe that a fix was in order" or is such a person "not liking the fix and having fun without it?"
You say that like it's an objective truth -- "a fix was in order." What if someone likes the DMG system? What if they want a low-magic campaign where the only items available are those in the DMG, and only at the outratgeous prices that are listed? Is such a person "refusing to believe that a fix was in order" or is such a person "not liking the fix and having fun without it?"
First, let me say that I completely support your right to ban anything you want from your game.
Second, I prefer low-magic games myself, although Eberron has been a surprising (to me) exception.
Third, I think the pricing of some items in the MIC is crazy. As I said up-thread, I've not had an issues with belts of healing, but IMO there are a good number of items in the MIC that are too good for the cost.
That said, a game using DMG pricing isn't a low-magic game, and it's not "low-magic" that the MIC fixes (or purports to fix, whichever your perspective may be).
A game using the DMG is a normal-magic D&D game (which is to say, magic items are plentiful), but it's a normal-magic game dominated by stat-boosting items, save-boosting items, AC-boosting items, and so forth. (The Big Six.)
By contrast, a game using the MIC is a normal-magic D&D game with higher variety, because for 16,000 gp, you can purchase non-Big Six magic items with a utility in the ballpark of a +4 stat-boosting item (for instance).
I think, if you're going to play normal-magic D&D, that increased variety is definitely a good goal to have had in a supplement, even if the mark was missed in some cases.
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Excellent. You & I are on the same page, Jeff. I don't much care what label the DMG system is given -- low magic, normal magic but only for the big 6, whatever works. I think I just bristle at the negative characterizations of people who like that flavor of campaign, as if MIC is the only correct way to run a game, and anyone going in a different direction is simply too deficient to grasp reality. As someone implied (but did not quite write) earlier in this thread, I'm having fun wrong, as if that is possible.
"Your happiness is incorrect! You will be happy the approved way! Any other way is impossible!"
And that is of course not directed at you, as you certainly have not made value judgments of people in this thread (or if you have, you haven't posted them).
Excellent. You & I are on the same page, Jeff. I don't much care what label the DMG system is given -- low magic, normal magic but only for the big 6, whatever works. I think I just bristle at the negative characterizations of people who like that flavor of campaign, as if MIC is the only correct way to run a game, and anyone going in a different direction is simply too deficient to grasp reality. As someone implied (but did not quite write) earlier in this thread, I'm having fun wrong, as if that is possible.
Except that only until recently, you made no mention of what sort of campaign you were running. I do not feel it was unreasonable for posters to assume that unless stated otherwise, you would be following the assumptions laid out in the rulebooks, and not the low-powered setting.
If you had explained right from the very beginning your rationales for wanting to stick with the (clearly flawed) pricing guidelines in the DMG despite clear evidence demonstrating that they are problematic, the discussion would likely have ended there and then. You are making a conscious and informed decision, and that is really all that matters, regardless of how you wish to rule in your game.
Instead, when you appeared to blatantly disregard sound advice given, I think that the other posters responded the way they did not so much because they are trying to twist your arm into playing your game the way they see fit, but more so out of concern that you may have either misinterpreted the points raised (hence our repeated attempts at clarifying and reinforcing our earlier, original statements), or dismissed them outright as the mad ravings of a power-hungry munchkin interested only in raising the power-level of his own campaign (I suspect it is this latter notion which led to the posters becoming self-defensive in their responses - that using MIC somehow translates to power creep).
Except that only until recently, you made no mention of what sort of campaign you were running. I do not feel it was unreasonable for posters to assume that unless stated otherwise, you would be following the assumptions laid out in the rulebooks, and not the low-powered setting.
If you had explained right from the very beginning your rationales for wanting to stick with the (clearly flawed) pricing guidelines in the DMG despite clear evidence demonstrating that they are problematic, the discussion would likely have ended there and then. You are making a conscious and informed decision, and that is really all that matters, regardless of how you wish to rule in your game.
Well, all that is pretty much true.
I'd also like to add the entire purpose of the original poster's query was to discuss the balance issues of the MIC's Healing Belt. That discussion, to some extent, is still going on. . . despite the OP's final (personal) decision on the matter.
If the OP made up his mind, and doesn't wish to argue any further points outside of "It's my game, I'll play it how i want so don't judge me," then frankly. . . he's no longer adding anything to the meat of the discussion.
Back to discussion:
I, for one, find the healing belt "balanced," inn the sense that it will never help the PC's accomplish anything. . . utliity. It doesn't overcome traps, aid in NPC reactions, do damage, provide extra movement. . . or anything. All it does is aid in the ability to take just ONE MORE hit a day from the girallion.
Hell, based on sheer uselessness, it may be overpriced.
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If you had explained right from the very beginning your rationales for wanting to stick with the (clearly flawed) pricing guidelines in the DMG despite clear evidence demonstrating that they are problematic, the discussion would likely have ended there and then.
Speaking for myself, I think most of those "clearly flawed" guidelines are better than throwing things out at bargain basement prices in splatbooks because A.) the author of that particular book didn't agree with the pricing in the core rules or B.) to satisfy the "rule of cool". I suspect a fair bit of both of these see the light of day in various printed sources.
Look, honestly, most of what's in the MIC is great, and sees a lot of use in my group's games. But some items seem questionably priced compared to similar items in the core - and by that I mean actual printed items, not just pricing guidelines for "homebrewed" items. If you want to allow the Healing Belt in a game at it's listed price, you either have to accept that no one in their right mind would ever buy (or create) a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds again; or you have to completely redo the pricing structure of potions in your game...
...at the end of the day, whatever works for a particular group is fine. There is no right or wrong way to play D&D, only what is fun for your group.
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If you want to allow the Healing Belt in a game at it's listed price, you either have to accept that no one in their right mind would ever buy (or create) a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds again; or you have to completely redo the pricing structure of potions in your game...
But...no one in their right mind would ever buy (or create) a potion of cure serious wounds, with or without healing belts on the shelf. And again, the fact that some items seem "questionable priced" is a reflection of the (IMHO) problem that some items are just way overpriced. Given the option, no one in their right mind would buy anything but a wand of cure light wounds, and this tells me that there is something wrong with the DMG pricing guidelines and that they shouldn't be held as the standard by which prices are compared.
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Speaking for myself, I think most of those "clearly flawed" guidelines are better than throwing things out at bargain basement prices in splatbooks because A.) the author of that particular book didn't agree with the pricing in the core rules or B.) to satisfy the "rule of cool". I suspect a fair bit of both of these see the light of day in various printed sources.
Look, honestly, most of what's in the MIC is great, and sees a lot of use in my group's games. But some items seem questionably priced compared to similar items in the core - and by that I mean actual printed items, not just pricing guidelines for "homebrewed" items. If you want to allow the Healing Belt in a game at it's listed price, you either have to accept that no one in their right mind would ever buy (or create) a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds again; or you have to completely redo the pricing structure of potions in your game...
...at the end of the day, whatever works for a particular group is fine. There is no right or wrong way to play D&D, only what is fun for your group.
NPCs might buy potions; cheap way to heal without giving PCs extra treasure
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Wait, do those that think the healing belt is broken actually think that the HEALING BELT is why nobody creates potions of Cure Serious Wounds?
I hate to say that's totally false.
Even prior to the healing belt, nobody actually created or even bought these things as in terms of value for money, the CSW potion is VERY, VERY POOR
I have to agree. I have never bought a potion, ever. I might chip in to buy a wand to use on the group and when the MIC came out I jumped on the healing belt, but once again the only potions I use are the ones I find on dead enemies.
NPCs might buy potions; cheap way to heal without giving PCs extra treasure
Drinking potions in combat is tantamount to suicide, unless you have that delayed potion feat from complete mage. You provoke an AoO for doing so, waste a standard action (which can be used to attack), and the damage taken on this AoO possibly exceeds the hp healed (assuming it did not kill them outright before the healing kicks in, since the attack is made before they actually drink the healing potion).
At least the healing belt doesn't provoke an AoO when used.
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