So yes, I am well aware that Mithral bumps the armor down a category, but does it grant proficiency? For example, does a character with light and medium armor prof have proficiency with mithral fullplate, or does the fullplate just not restrict movement as if it was medium armor? Thanks.
So yes, I am well aware that Mithral bumps the armor down a category, but does it grant proficiency? For example, does a character with light and medium armor prof have proficiency with mithral fullplate, or does the fullplate just not restrict movement as if it was medium armor? Thanks.
In 3.5, a PC with Medium Armor Proficiency is considered proficient with mithral full plate. It's a common houserule to go the other way, though.
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For example, does a character with light and medium armor prof have proficiency with mithral fullplate, or does the fullplate just not restrict movement as if it was medium armor? Thanks.
Not per the DMG or PHB. There may be a splat book that has a rule about it.
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So yes, I am well aware that Mithral bumps the armor down a category, but does it grant proficiency? For example, does a character with light and medium armor prof have proficiency with mithral fullplate, or does the fullplate just not restrict movement as if it was medium armor? Thanks.
According to the DMG the armor is treated as one step lighter for movement and other limitations. Some people don't believe armor proficiency is considered a limitation on the armor, personally I do as even the DMG makes Elven Chain [Mithral Chainmail] to be light armor.
Also the FAQ supports that mithral full plate is medium armor, and I believe that Races of the Wild also places mithral fullplate under medium armor on it's armor chart.
So while it's not expressly stated in the DMG that proficiency is one of the limitations that armor is considered lighter for it does seem to be what was intended.
I'm of the option the proficiency to use the armor should not change. There is no need to devalue the Heavy armor Proficiency.
The proficiency issue was mentioned in one of the best entries in the 3.5 FAQ. While I don't agree with the entry, i respect it because it cites the rules, explains that there is some vagueness and does not hide what it is suggesting IS a suggestion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Faq Is a character proficient with light armor, such as a rogue, considered to be proficient with mithral breastplate? What about a character proficient with medium armor, such as a barbarian—is he considered proficient with mithral full plate armor?
The description of mithral on page 284 of the DMG is less precise than it could be in defining how it interacts with armor proficiency rules. The simplest answer—and the one that the Sage expects most players and DMs use—is that mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. This isn’t exactly what the DMG says, but it’s a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it’s supported by a number of precedents, including the descriptions of various specific mithral armors described on page 220 of the DMG and a variety of NPC stat blocks).
Thus, a ranger or rogue could wear a mithral breastplate without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as light armor), and each could use any ability dependent on wearing light or no armor (such as evasion or the ranger’s combat style). A barbarian could wear mithral full plate armor without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as medium armor), and he could use any ability dependent on wearing medium or lighter armor (such as fast movement).
The same would be true of any other special material that uses the same or similar language as mithral (such as darkleaf, on page 120 of the ECS).
While I don't agree with the entry, i respect it because it cites the rules, explains that there is some vagueness and does not hide what it is suggesting IS a suggestion.
Correct. Some DMs use that suggestion to create a house rule. Some don't.
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Nope. It actually lists the items. If you quote the exact text you'll see that your statement is false.
Nope, you won't fine me seeing my statement false. BEcause it is true. Funny how that works :P
Examples: MIC, Races of Wild, DMG (Elvin Chain was light in every way even proficiency) , etc.
Every book after DMG that metioned it treated it as one lighter even in proficiency.
In fact, I'd like someone to find a WotC book that doesn't treat it that way. 3.5 perferably, but I would'nt mind seeing how 3.0 was different.
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Last edited by Starbuck_II; 23rd April 2009 at 09:01 PM..
I'm speaking (as I said) of Core book rules. Not crap books.
You may have missed it, but he did mention the DMG (a core book, unless I'm very much mistaken) in his list of examples. And I'd hardly consider MIC a "crap book."
The 3.5 DMG contains 3 examples that I see: Elven Chain, Mithral Full Plate of Speed, and Mithral Shirt.
Each of these specifies that it is considered one step lighter than the base armor (medium for the full plate, light for the others). There are no qualifications on this; it doesn't say "for the purpose of movement" or anything like that. The armor is flatly considered lighter.
So, am I reading that completely wrong? Are there counterexamples somewhere (in the core books, preferably)?
The only drawback I can think of for such a rule is if you have taken the armour specialization feat (heavy) from PHB2. Your fighter normally wears fullplate (getting the dr 2/-), but you find that you cannot upgrade to enchanted mithral fullplate without losing the benefits of said feat (since it is treated as medium, not heavy armour).
Otherwise, it can only be a benefit. Barbarians and warblades rejoice!
You may have missed it, but he did mention the DMG (a core book, unless I'm very much mistaken) in his list of examples.
Don't bother arguing with Kask about this. He's been confronted with the evidence before (see this thread), and just resorts to logic-defying mental gymnastics (epic Tumbling, really) to avoid the rational conclusion.
Granted, all books after the DMG list mithral armors as one less for everything. So designers sure liked thast "suggestion".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kask
Nope. It actually lists the items. If you quote the exact text you'll see that your statement is false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kask
I'm speaking (as I said) of Core book rules. Not crap books.
@Kask:
The only book 'after' the DMG not considered a 'crap' book as you state, is the MM.
Considering the referred material 'crap' does not make the statement false.
All published books after the DMG containing mithril armor list their mithril armor in the armor tables as one category lighter.
The DMG does NOT have an armor table like that, (because) it lists the armor as part of the magic item section.
The DMG does not specify whether the armor is considered one category lighter for the purpose of armor proficiency.
The FAQ suggests it should be considered one category lighter for the purpose of armor proficiency.
The splatbooks list the armor as one category lighter for the purpose of armor proficiency.
Those are the facts. Whether you include the FAQ and/or splatbooks in your official ruleset or not, nowhere is it stated that the mithril armor should NOT be considered one category lighter for the purpose of armor proficiency.
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Last edited by Herzog; 24th April 2009 at 10:03 AM..
Reason: Grammar
Don't bother arguing with Kask about this. He's been confronted with the evidence before (see this thread), and just resorts to logic-defying mental gymnastics (epic Tumbling, really) to avoid the rational conclusion.
Okay, give the quote from the DMG...
I'll wait...
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As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.
Speed while wearing a suit of mithral full plate is 20 feet for Medium creatures, or 15 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of -3. It is considered medium armor and weighs 25 pounds.
Quote:
Elven Chain
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. Speed while wearing elven chain is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of -2. It is considered light armor and weighs 20 pounds.
I bolded/underlined the important part.
Did you notice they are meduim heavy armor and light meduim armors?
So they require proficiency as if they are meduim/light respoecively.
Elven chain isn't even magic: just mithral further proving that it isn't magic but the special material.
That means mithral makes proficiency lessened too.
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and
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Nope. The section on materials effect on armor, non-magical...
I'll wait.
What you're asking for is a 100% clear cut direct answer. There isn't one either way.
Therefore, the result is rather up in the air, especially since so much other material seems to point in the direction of lessening proficiency requirements.
I don't really care either way, but Kask, I think it'd be a lot easier to say you want a literal quote stating the exact words, "Mithral armor lessens the proficiency required by one step" or something to that effect... rather than asking for a DMG quote and saying, "I'll wait" over and over as people present evidence.
It's obvious no one will convince you, and with your desired evidence I see why. I mean no offense, it just seems counter productive for anyone to argue that point with you as with your qualification the point cannot be proven eitherway, leaving it open for houseruling anyway.
I just don't want this to get hostile... as it seems the question's already been answered mostly.
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Nope. The section on materials effect on armor, non-magical...
I'll wait.
Wait, so in everyway the DMG suggest and shows examples that it is lighter in everyway, but since it doesn't say it directly: you ignore it?
Isn't that like saying show me the world is round:
Even though Christopher Columbus sails around it: since he didn't directly say it was round (he still believed it was East Indies) it is still flat?
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