We are in a campaign with a 4 players. The 3 of us are more experienced but the rogue plays for his first time and his character is less effective than ours. He actually is Rogue(6)/Cleric(3). In the last session when fighting a boss he didn't even do one succesful attack. We decided to make him a new Rogue but we don't know many thing for rogue characters so i need help. He must have at least 23-24 AC and do some pretty good damage, preferably over 50 per round. And a little help with his saving throws.
Thanks
So you want us to build a level 9 Rogue or multiclassed Rogue for him? Is he ok with that? Is there anything in particular he wants or wants to be able to do? What books are allowed?
He can pretty easily get to 23-24 AC by level 9 with a (+1) buckler, +1 light armor (kind varying based on his dex), good dex score, which he should have as a rogue, and +1's from magic items. Ring of Protection +1 is 2000 and adds to all AC values. Natural armor +1 is also only 2000 gp, and adds to all but touch AC. Playing a small race is another +1 if he wants, +2 if that race gives a dex bonus. He could also afford a +2 dex item by level 9.
Not getting into splats too much yet, but Complete Mage has a variant where he can trade Trap Sense for Spell Sense. That adds his TS bonus to his AC against spells and spell-like abilities, or +3 for a level 9 Rogue (instead of to Ac and Reflex vs. traps).
By level 9, he can likely use wands safely (use magic device DC 20 --and is always 20; 12 ranks plus other bonuses). So any low level buff spells that don't require a big CL to use well can be implemented. Scrolls are DC 20 + CL and more dangerous if you fail, so stick to CL 1 on those for now. Scrolls of True Strike to hit next round on anything but a 1 is nice. Grease is good because if a foe is balancing nad lacks 5 ranks in balance, he is flatfooted. But that lasts round/level, so he'd want at least a CL 3 wand of that, so he has time to actually benefit from it.
My online gaming group, Torch of Spirit (Contains all information for the current game I'm co-DMing as well as lots of houserules I'm using or considering for the future. Feel free to check it out.)
thanks for the reply. he doesn't really knows what he wants because he is new. he is doing fine at role playing but he is crappy at battles. the rest of the party is a little overpowered so we want him to keep up with us at combat. the party is unbalanced and he usually gets killed or runs away at battles because the monsters are tough for the rest of us but impossible for him. we use all 3 and 3.5 books even eberon, oriental and ravenloft. so the main target is to improve his ac attack and damage, specially damage, and do him more durable in combat. we will also rearrange his stats (18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 14). and for equipment he can take the basic the dmg provides for a 9 level rogue + 4000 gp
thanks for the reply. he doesn't really knows what he wants because he is new. he is doing fine at role playing but he is crappy at battles. the rest of the party is a little overpowered so we want him to keep up with us at combat. the party is unbalanced and he usually gets killed or runs away at battles because the monsters are tough for the rest of us but impossible for him. we use all 3 and 3.5 books even eberon, oriental and ravenloft. so the main target is to improve his ac attack and damage, specially damage, and do him more durable in combat. we will also rearrange his stats (18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 14). and for equipment he can take the basic the dmg provides for a 9 level rogue + 4000 gp
That stat line is insane.
Halfling Rogue 4/Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler 3
(Take Rogue, Swashbuckler, Swordsage, Swashbuckler, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue, Swordsage, Swashbuckler.
If your GM is lenient on multiclassing XP penalty do Rog, Swa, Swo, Swa, Rog, Rog, Swa, Swo, Rog instead; the final rogue level will help you top off skills. If GM is not lenient with multiclassing XP penalties, continue with pure Rogue levels (or appropriate prestige classes) to get more sneak attack damage, more skills, and eventually rogue special abilities; Swashbuckler is valid if multiclassing penalties are waived, to increase HP and get better BAB.)
Feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting
3: Shadow Blade (+DEX to damage with Shadow Hand weapons while in Shadow Hand stance)
6: Daring Outlaw (allows Swashbuckler levels to stack with Rogue levels for sneak attack dice, mainly)
9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
STR 12
DEX 20 (+2 from levels goes to 22)
CON 16
INT 18
WIS 15
CHA 14
Swashbuckler gets you Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat and +INT to damage.
There's an alternate class feature that replaces trap sense with the ability to do half sneak attack damage to otherwise crit-immune creatures when flanking; I'm away from my books so I don't remember where that's found.
At 8 you have an initiator level of 2 (swordsage levels)+6/2(from other levels)=5, which is high enough to take Assassin's Stance as your second stance. Take Island of Blades as your first stance. Now you have Wisdom to AC in light armor (but not with a shield, unfortunately, so ditch the shield; Wisdom to AC should make up for it), you can more easily flank (in Island of Blades stance) or do more sneak attack damage (Assassin's Stance gives you +2d6 sneak attack) and you have access to some maneuvers that give you the opportunity to make the opponent flat-footed or flank them; there's a very good Desert Wind Boost that lets you conjure a flanking elemental for 1 round as a swift action. Use daggers.
In Assassin's Stance the base damage per attack, before items, is:
1d3+6(DEX)+4(INT)+6D6 (Sneak Attack, if you qualify). 4 attacks on a full attack action.
Choose armor based on the final DEX modifier you get; be mindful that this can change. There's a light armor in Drow of the Underdark(I think) that provides a max dex of +10 if you want to be on the safe side; it has +1 base armor modifier.
DEX is your most important stat, CON, WIS, and INT are important secondary stats. But with that stat line you can afford that.
With 18 INT you can afford to max the combat-important rogue skills Tumble and Use Magic Device and keep the others (disable device, etc.) at a decent level. Both Swashbuckler and Swordsage have decent skill points per level and decent skill lists. With a little tactical help (easy flanks) from allies, this character should pull their own weight with little trouble.
[Edit: Error corrected. Daggers sized for Small creatures do 1d3, not 1d4. Sorry about that.
Further edit: Changed level progression for later skill point glut to help top off skills.]
Last edited by Elethiomel; 10th May 2009 at 03:34 AM..
I think it is on complete champion if i am not wrong. There is also another alternative i do not remember where which reflects back a ray or touch spell to the caster...
If you want to deal more damage you can try the feat righteous wrath form exalded deeds which says you deal d8 instead of d6 on sneak attacks against evil targets.Also take craven (your hit dice on damage roles when you deal a sneak attack)
__________________ Duskblade : Neither good as a fighter nor efficient as a wizard but stronger than both.
There is also another alternative i do not remember where which reflects back a ray or touch spell to the caster...
Complete Mage, pg. 35
really cool alternative, you do not gain Evasion, but instead gain the supernatural ability to reflect magical attacks back on their caster.
I think it is on complete champion if i am not wrong. There is also another alternative i do not remember where which reflects back a ray or touch spell to the caster...
If you want to deal more damage you can try the feat righteous wrath form exalded deeds which says you deal d8 instead of d6 on sneak attacks against evil targets.Also take craven (your hit dice on damage roles when you deal a sneak attack)
The complete champion version only works on undead, not all sneak attack immune creatures like the Dungeonscape version does.
D8 sneak attack dice against evil is good (though it isn't called Righteous Wrath; it's called Sacred Strike), but it's an Exalted feat: "Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can aquire Exalted feats, and only as gifts from powerful agents of good - Deities, celestials, and similar creatures." It's also poorer than any of the feats I suggested in my build save possibly Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; it adds 1 average damage on each sneak attack die, but only against evil creatures.
Craven is good for damage (and overall better than Sacred Strike), but the will save penalty can hurt, especially as that is already one of the weaknesses of rogues. The fluff in Champions of Ruin also seems to be mutually exclusive with the Exalted Deeds restrictions, though it doesn't actually describe any game mechanical effects; just "feats of pure cruelty and evil".
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Mishra-
Complete Mage, pg. 35
really cool alternative, you do not gain Evasion, but instead gain the supernatural ability to reflect magical attacks back on their caster.
It's cool. It does require the magical attack to miss in the first place, though, and losing Evasion can really, really hurt. Evasion very good for rogues because they succeed on so many reflex saves.
I've got similar problems (almost identical; first time player, wanting to Rogue (due to WoW) and alongside similar level characters, doesn't stand a chance).
But he's tried furiously to see find ways around his handycaps.
The most recent was devastating. He managed to buy a Blindfold of True Darkness (9,000gp, Magic Item Compendium). Which gives him blindsight (see even in a darkness spell). Then he gets our cleric to cast darkness on a rock, sticks it in him mouth, and in combat simply smiles to let the darkness out (likely smiling from glee too). His enemies cannot see, lose their dex bonus to AC, and he then can sneak attack them without mercy.
This was all worked out just in time for him to be alone (rest of the party was sleeping) when a group of 8 Naga attacked the boat. By the time the group woke up and put on our armour and weapons, he'd killed them all. Well.. not entirely true; the druid in the group managed a 5-times critical roll to kill the last one outright (scimitar crit range 15-20); amazing to see.
Other options are the Shadow Dancer PrC (DMG and Epic Level Handbook) which allows him to jump across shadows (easily get into flanking position, and escape if necessary). Plus the Evasion and Improved Evasion to avoid all damage from most area affect spells. He's also spoken of a feat that will eventually allow him to roll all Fort saving throws as Reflex instead (at least I think it was Fort). Someone here will know what it is, or I can ask him.
Focus on your Dex ability, get a weapon finesse and rapier; use your Dex mod for the melee weapon (rather than Str) attack rolls. Allows a greater chance to hit, decent crit range, and with a keen edge or Improved Critical (feat), and he'll be taking out some more high powered creatures a bit easier.
Otherwise, as a Rogue, you're focusing on magical items to compensate for a large lack in compat power. I'd recommend he multiclass with a Druid. It'll improve his saves, HitDice, and expand on many of his interests with the Rogue; as an example, he can eventually turn into a giant octupus and have 8 sneak attacks against a foe (provided he can hold his breath for as long as the battle lasts). A range of the Druid spells also distract opponents which is great for sneak attacks.
I should say as well, that during this Rogues attempts to find solutions to his combat problems, he stumbled across this forum (where I'd posted questions about how to handle sneak attacks). He saw my post, signed up, and sent me a friendly message filled with 'talk' we'd share while playing... and was promptly banned :P
So now I can conspire against him once more..
Or is there a way anyone knows of to get him unbanned? I mean, he knew he wasn't going to offend me. (I do understand the rules, and that he broke them, but still, his words wouldn't have caused any harm)
The most recent was devastating. He managed to buy a Blindfold of True Darkness (9,000gp, Magic Item Compendium). Which gives him blindsight (see even in a darkness spell). Then he gets our cleric to cast darkness on a rock, sticks it in him mouth, and in combat simply smiles to let the darkness out (likely smiling from glee too). His enemies cannot see, lose their dex bonus to AC, and he then can sneak attack them without mercy.
If that is 3.5 Darkness then I am afraid it is more like Shadowy Illumination than total pitch black no-see-um darkness.
I think the Staggering Strike feat is nice (hit the bad guy, bad guy makes save or is reduced to Standard Action - so no multiple attacks for bad guy). As is a feat in Complete Warrior that lets you ignore the enemy's Power Attack, and let Enemy A "accidentally" his Enemy B with A's first attack if both are flanking you.
__________________ 28 days... six hours... 42 minutes... 12 seconds. That... is when the world... will end.
The most recent was devastating. He managed to buy a Blindfold of True Darkness (9,000gp, Magic Item Compendium). Which gives him blindsight (see even in a darkness spell). Then he gets our cleric to cast darkness on a rock, sticks it in him mouth, and in combat simply smiles to let the darkness out (likely smiling from glee too). His enemies cannot see, lose their dex bonus to AC, and he then can sneak attack them without mercy.
This was all worked out just in time for him to be alone (rest of the party was sleeping) when a group of 8 Naga attacked the boat. By the time the group woke up and put on our armour and weapons, he'd killed them all. Well.. not entirely true; the druid in the group managed a 5-times critical roll to kill the last one outright (scimitar crit range 15-20); amazing to see.
Let's see - was he "on watch"?
It almost invariably happens that the players who running characters on watch forget the cardinal rule - "wake everyone up!!!!"
What seems to happen more times than not is that those on watch try to handle the opponents on their own and then something like what you described happens - TPK.
Oh and putting on armor will almost always end up taking far too much time, unless it is light armor,. We had many, many "random" encounters when the DM had groups attacking our party when we were sleeping - so that only the character's on watch were ready. Getting weapons out is the easy part (usually no longer than a round, most of the time a move action) it is the getting armor on that hinders a group.
Now when 3.5 re-did the endurance feat it actually became somewhat useful now - you can sleep in medium armor without being fatiged.
The DM needs to adjust the CR of the encounter to account for the fact that the party is no longer equipped properly - something that DMs tend to forget when running something on the fly. The CR listed in the books assumes that the party is equipped normally (i.e., they have their armor and equipment readily available). It does not account for set ambushes and the like, although a "surprise" round is part of the normal encounter system.
We are in a campaign with a 4 players. The 3 of us are more experienced but the rogue plays for his first time and his character is less effective than ours. He actually is Rogue(6)/Cleric(3). In the last session when fighting a boss he didn't even do one succesful attack. We decided to make him a new Rogue but we don't know many thing for rogue characters so i need help. He must have at least 23-24 AC and do some pretty good damage, preferably over 50 per round. And a little help with his saving throws.
Thanks
he is relatively ineffective becasue he has split his focus.
He is a weak caster because he lost 6 levels of casting by being a rogue.
He is a less effective rogue because he has 3 levels of cleric. One of the clerics benefits is their armor proficiencies, but those don't match well with a rogues skills and abilities.
Figure out what type of character he wants to run.
A spellcaster or a more "traditional" rogue.
If he wants to deal damage then go with a fighter or a fighter/rogue combo. The extra feats a fighter gets helps the combo a lot.
3 levels of cleric is pretty useless IMO, he only gets 2nd level spells.
D&D is designed around picking a focus and concentrating on it. If a player runs a jack of all trades then he will be able to do a lot of things, but not be real effective at any of them. This is fine for role-playing, but if the game being run is more about straight combat and how much damage you can deal then this just doesn't work very well.
The DM needs to adjust the CR of the encounter to account for the fact that the party is no longer equipped properly - something that DMs tend to forget when running something on the fly. The CR listed in the books assumes that the party is equipped normally (i.e., they have their armor and equipment readily available). It does not account for set ambushes and the like, although a "surprise" round is part of the normal encounter system.
I'm lucky (or unlucky) in the fact that these players have only touched DnD in PC games like Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Nights. So they have some inflated views on some monsters, poor ones of others, but mostly no idea what they're coming up against.
Setting them up against a Battlebriar has the same response from them as a Greenvice: "oh, it's something else we have no knowledge of whether we should fight or flee". Which generally comes down to fight, because I don't make things unfair.. or I at least give them some warning cues for when it might be too much; such as 'the SIX armed Marilith is HUGE and looks VERY dangerous'.
But it is nice having them run away like little girls (heavily wounded girls), only to face the same creatures some time later, and easily beat them. Gives them some perspective on how they've improved.
We are in a campaign with a 4 players. The 3 of us are more experienced but the rogue plays for his first time and his character is less effective than ours. He actually is Rogue(6)/Cleric(3). In the last session when fighting a boss he didn't even do one succesful attack. We decided to make him a new Rogue but we don't know many thing for rogue characters so i need help. He must have at least 23-24 AC and do some pretty good damage, preferably over 50 per round. And a little help with his saving throws.
Thanks
Rogues and clerics are not made for combat, but they can be made to do so. The rogues' value is in their skill set, and the cleric has other abilities. The best thing to do would have the person come here, so we can help him.
Human Rog 6/Cle 3. Not sure what his original domains were, but Trickery and Luck are good domains.
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 14. Take two increases to Dex, making it 20.
Skills: Tumble, Balance, Disable Device, Search, Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Use Magic Device, Hide, Bluff all at max as a rogue, with the remainder split between Climb, Open Locks, and Sense Motive. As a cleric, max out Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowlede (religion), Diplomacy, and Heal.
Feats: Magical Aptitude, Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense. Quick Draw is so you can cast spells, then in the next round have two weapons in hand when you attack.
AC = 22 (mithril chain +5, ring of protection +1 deflection, amulet of natural armor +1, Dex +5). AC becomes 23 when wielding a second weapon, and 27 when fighting defensively. It should not be difficult to break AC 30 with some gold and some helpful spells.
You have a wizard in the party, right? Working together, this character and the wizard can create potions or scrolls of aid and invisibility.
Other gear: Pearl of power (2nd), cloak of resistance.
Things to do:
*Use your 2nd level domain spell for Invisibility. With this ability and your pearl, twice per day you should be able to walk right up to an enemy and attack with two weapons for sneak attack damage. Use your Luck power to reroll a miss. Later on, you can trade up for a ring of invisibility.
*If you find yourself pressed by multiple enemies, attack defensively to boost your AC and let other PCs pick off the bad guys.
*If you know trouble is coming, get your wizard buddy to slip you a couple of scrolls of shield. There is a small chance of a misfire, but the potential benefits are high and the cost relatively low.
*Wands, especially an assortment of low level wands. Grease is a good one. Later on, you can make good use of expensive high level cleric wands, such as hold monster, cure critical wounds, and more.
*Know your enemy? Go shopping. Shortbow + bane arrows of the appropriate type. With a little silversheen and some oil of energy weapon you can be ready for anything. Golems may be immune to sneak attack, but not to adamantine bane construct arrows.
*Enemies that are immune to sneak attack tend to be either undead or constructs. A morningstar is a good backup weapon for undead, as it has multiple damage types, and a magic weapon spell can make it magical, making it effective even against liches. Slings and bows can keep you out of range of dangerous touch attacks. Constructs are tougher, as golems really fear only expensive adamantine items. In many cases, you can focus on avoiding the golem altogether by using grease, tumble, and better mobility. There is little reason to fight a golem if you can defeat its master, steal what it was guarding, or enter areas it was supposed to protect.
Ideas for advancment:
* Straight up rogue. Take slippery mind and improved evasion as special abilities.
*Tempest.
*Weapon Focus, more two weapon feats, and Divine feats are all handy.
There is an incredible item for rogues that i think it is called ''mantle of the predator'' it must be in magik item compedium.Anyway if you pay 8000 gold this cloack offers a +5 bonus on hide and move silently and increases sneak attack you deal by an extra d6. There is a weapon enchantment also that improves your sneak attack by an extra d6 (+1 property)
__________________ Duskblade : Neither good as a fighter nor efficient as a wizard but stronger than both.
There is an incredible item for rogues that i think it is called ''mantle of the predator'' it must be in magik item compedium.Anyway if you pay 8000 gold this cloack offers a +5 bonus on hide and move silently and increases sneak attack you deal by an extra d6. There is a weapon enchantment also that improves your sneak attack by an extra d6 (+1 property)
Critical Strike from the SpC is well as nice. Swift action spell for more sneak attack goodness. (Dunno if it's for clerics too)
Telling Blow (PHB2) and weapons with high crit range would be another beef up.
__________________ Shilsen: Remember, as a wise man once said, physics is a house rule. Charwoman Gene: Hello, you seem greedy and prone to violence, want to go camping together for the rest of our lives? Celebrim:... + 5 (+5 enchancement bonus) ... Shilsen: I read the strip and felt a great disturbance in the Farce, as if a million voices cried out in terror, "No!! The XX eyes!!" and were suddenly silenced. BlackSeed_Vash: Does the fighter/bard have a +X Greataxe Shock/Shocking Burst, for that feel good electric axe feel?! Do you think your dice are lucky? Read this.
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