Summon Creature Range

ScionJustice · 16th May 2009, 01:50 AM

Since there is a range on the summon monster spells, can I summon a earth elemental or other heavy creature in the air above my opponents so they'll fall on and crush them? I don't see anything in the rules that says I can't.

Theroc · 16th May 2009, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScionJustice

Since there is a range on the summon monster spells, can I summon a earth elemental or other heavy creature in the air above my opponents so they'll fall on and crush them? I don't see anything in the rules that says I can't.

Not sure about whether or not you can, but if you can, the thing you summoned would take falling damage, methinks.

DarkelvenSFi · 16th May 2009, 01:56 AM

It's the DM's discretion. He'll make a choice on whether you can, and whether your alignment should shift as a result.

Rhun · 16th May 2009, 01:57 AM

Agree that it is completely the DM's discretion.

StreamOfTheSky · 16th May 2009, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

and whether your alignment should shift as a result.

Why? Summoned creatures don't actually die or get harmed. I always thought it was odd when a Druid in the party would summon an animal to "detect traps" -- seemed cruel and un-Druidly. But people do that kind of stuff all the time. Flanking buddy and meat shield are two of the main combat reasons things are summoned, which is similarly cruel and likely to lead to pain and suffering for the summoned creature.

DarkelvenSFi · 16th May 2009, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Why? Summoned creatures don't actually die or get harmed. I always thought it was odd when a Druid in the party would summon an animal to "detect traps" -- seemed cruel and un-Druidly. But people do that kind of stuff all the time. Flanking buddy and meat shield are two of the main combat reasons things are summoned, which is similarly cruel and likely to lead to pain and suffering for the summoned creature.

I always thought it was cruel and un-druidly as well. Our party has a druid, and the other players have tried several times to get him to sacrifice his summonings for the greater good; he's always declined.

So it really does come down to the DMs discretion for whether such an action would alter your alignment. I cannot imagine happily sending a dog down a passage way, and feeling relieved that it set off a trap; watiching it yelp and whine pittifully would naturally set me on edge; thus I cannot see it as a neutral thing to do.

It comes down to cognitive disonance. They've become so accoustomed to these summoned creatures dying for them, that it's commonplace and overlooked. That doesn't make it 'right'.

But saying all that.. it does come down to how the DM dictates that it works. I'm not arguing that others should follow this rule, only explaining how it is in my game

Edheldur · 16th May 2009, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScionJustice

Since there is a range on the summon monster spells, can I summon a earth elemental or other heavy creature in the air above my opponents so they'll fall on and crush them? I don't see anything in the rules that says I can't.

Actually, the rules do say you can't:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.5 PHB, page 172

Conjuration

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Starbuck_II · 16th May 2009, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

So it really does come down to the DMs discretion for whether such an action would alter your alignment. I cannot imagine happily sending a dog down a passage way, and feeling relieved that it set off a trap; watiching it yelp and whine pittifully would naturally set me on edge; thus I cannot see it as a neutral thing to do.

What is that same dog was actually unhurt the next time you summoned it every single time?

Sure, it feels pain, but it doesn't die for helping you.

Rhun · 16th May 2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edheldur

Actually, the rules do say you can't:

Nice catch, Edheldur. I had never noted that line before.

DarkelvenSFi · 16th May 2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

What is that same dog was actually unhurt the next time you summoned it every single time?

Sure, it feels pain, but it doesn't die for helping you.

You've got some understanding of it feeling pain.. but that doesn't bother you?

Any claims that it doesn't die circumvent the issue; you're still making a choice to have someone else feel pain in place of you suffering. If you can see a reason for you to not want get hit by a trap, any summoned creature is going to have the same desire, and you're disregarding that for your own sake.

StreamOfTheSky · 16th May 2009, 09:32 AM

I always imagined summoning like a dream...except if you die in a dream you supposedly die for real.... Anyway, what i mean is, you might "experience" pain and it all seems incredibly real at the time, but it turns out to have been a false sensation afterwards.

It is a thorny issue, but by RAW there shouldn't be much moral debate. No harm is done. I understand a lot of people having a problem with that, though.

aboyd · 16th May 2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

Any claims that it doesn't die circumvent the issue; you're still making a choice to have someone else feel pain in place of you suffering. If you can see a reason for you to not want get hit by a trap, any summoned creature is going to have the same desire, and you're disregarding that for your own sake.

And this is a problem?

DarkelvenSFi · 16th May 2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aboyd

And this is a problem?

hehe, for me, I guess it is :P

But as has been said, it's up to the DMs discretion; and then the players who follow those rules.

Theroc · 16th May 2009, 05:58 PM

Druid's Nature's Ally was a Calling Effect I thought... meaning the wolves that get caught in the traps are actually hurt.

the_orc_within · 16th May 2009, 06:32 PM

I thought Summon Nature's Ally was a Calling effect, too, but apparently by RAW it's actually a Summoning.

So I guess the wolves or whatever the druid calls aren't really killed.

Though that begs the question: just where do they come from?

amethal · 17th May 2009, 04:12 PM

Being swallowed by a dragon is a traumatic experience for a unicorn, even if it is only a summoned version.

Imagine if you get the same unicorn every time, which gets swallowed, clawed to pieces, zapped by lightning bolts etc etc. It will be a nervous wreck by the end of the week.

There's nothing to say summoning spells work that way, but nothing much to say they don't either. As a DM, I prefer the option that has the best role-playing potential.

Ogrork the Mighty · 17th May 2009, 05:27 PM

This was addressed back in the day by WotC when people starting summoning whales and dropping them on enemies.

In short, no, you can't do it.

DarkelvenSFi · 18th May 2009, 01:43 AM

I still remember things like the 'cow cannon'.

Push a cow through a dimensional door which moves them several thousand meters up in the air. The poor cow drops (probably thinking, 'not again'). As it hurtles towards the earth, another portal is ready and waiting.

This portal catches the cow and changes its orientation; propelling it horisonally towards your enemy.

Theroc · 18th May 2009, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

I still remember things like the 'cow cannon'.

Push a cow through a dimensional door which moves them several thousand meters up in the air. The poor cow drops (probably thinking, 'not again'). As it hurtles towards the earth, another portal is ready and waiting.

This portal catches the cow and changes its orientation; propelling it horisonally towards your enemy.

So, you used Dimension Door sorta like the Orange Box's game "Portal"... to fire a cow like a cannon.

That's awesome... er... hilarious... as whacked out as it is. Ingenius, if a mite cheesy.

frankthedm · 19th May 2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogrork the Mighty

This was addressed back in the day by WotC when people starting summoning whales and dropping them on enemies.

In short, no, you can't do it.

i must confess guilt in doing this myself in early 3e. I had a wizard PC who would use the mount spell to drop a horse on foes. Roof wrecker, falling weight, monster bait, trap detector and other exceedingly cruel applications of the mount spell had the DM at the time name the mount summoned 'Agony'.

Though in 3.0 lower level "summon dead weight" abuses were often not that effective since they took a whole round to drop in and you had to chose when you STARTED to cast, where the ball would drop. Since you choose where summons show up AFTER the spell is complete in 3.5, body drop abuses would be notably stronger in the revised edition.