Items in shop; everything or a limited selection?

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

Thanks for that. Seems each time my group gets together now, there's some comment made about how the 'other side' does something different/better. Or how they are shocked that I allow something in my game.

I don't want to buy into these petty arguments and never attack the other table (just defend my game style), but the comments still make me wonder whether I am doing things that most would disapprove of (or are clearly against the rules).

So it's good to get some feedback from places like this. And it's given me some great ideas for how I can further improve things.

Well, if your players are always complaining about the other table, seems to me you're playing second fiddle.

No offense was intended by this, but if they're not satisfied with how you're running it, perhaps you should determine what could be changed to suit the expectations of both players and yourself, or whether or not your players want to play YOUR game, or just an extension of that other table.

No offense was intended by this, but without knowing how they are presenting things, it could either be a simple comment, or it could be in a more accusatory fashion, which sorta changes things a bit.

Personally, attacking another table seems silly to me. Sure, if what the other table does seems silly to you, I suppose feel free to talk to your own table about it... but going over to the other table and telling them they are silly is just rude and petty. Just seems counterproductive, as it could shift the focus into a 'peeing' contest between tables, if both parties slip into that mindset.

My personal opinion based on my limited experience says that having a magic store that has ALL magic items available would be a massive billboard saying, "ROGUES ROB ME HERE!" since magical items are like the massive diamonds of the D&D world, and at the magic marts, they've an entire store full.

I think the systems mentioned above about finding a person to buy them or just finding a craftsmen to place an order makes more sense. If you're handwaving the general process, just give a brief fluff description that you hired a craftsmage to make the item for the party members, etc...

That's just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

[DarkelvenSFi]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Well, if your players are always complaining about the other table, seems to me you're playing second fiddle.

Thanks for the feedback, but it seems my comment was a little ambiguous. The guys in my game are quite happy with how I run things, with the exception of one player [edit; and only on a few things]. Not one of us makes any negative comment about how the other table operates. The negative comments are directed at me.. which is why I started this thread; to see whether I really was doing things the 'wrong' way.

This topic was meant to be about whether shops should sell all or some items, rather than a rant about another groups game style. I'm a little ashamed that it's degraded into this sort of topic.

The player that isn't happy has been trying to get me to do things differently (like his other game style). He's only brought up a few differences, so it's not like this has been a long and drawn out 'battle of the game styles'.. it's just a simple things.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

Thanks for the feedback, but it seems my comment was a little ambiguous. The guys in my game are quite happy with how I run things, with the exception of one player [edit; and only on a few things]. Not one of us makes any negative comment about how the other table operates. The negative comments are directed at me.. which is why I started this thread; to see whether I really was doing things the 'wrong' way.

This topic was meant to be about whether shops should sell all or some items, rather than a rant about another groups game style. I'm a little ashamed that it's degraded into this sort of topic.

The player that isn't happy has been trying to get me to do things differently (like his other game style). He's only brought up a few differences, so it's not like this has been a long and drawn out 'battle of the game styles'.. it's just a simple things.

Ah, that clears things up a bit. I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone, just stating that if players were having such troubles, that they'd be chronic unless addressed.

Glad it's not as big an issue as I had originally gotten from your first post. Good luck, seems these guys have covered most of the angles.

[Dyson Logos]

Typically in the game I'm playing in we deal with very limited supply - a lot of goods are not available or are at incredibly inflated prices.

When I run my game, most/all standard items are available at cost during downtime in major areas.

[Amazing Mumford]

Totally 100% up to the DM. Here's my view though, There are cities (in the Realms, for example, like in Calimshan or cities with Thayan Enclaves) that specifically state that magic is available and abundant, but other than that the DM should use good judgement-- remember supply and demand as well. Aurora's shops in the Realms are actually magic-item order shops, where you order an item and the shop-keeps basically get it teleported to the shop-- I'm not sure how many there are, I know there's one in the Dalelands... But NOWHERE does it say that items cost EXACTLY as much as the DMG/MIC lists. I do personally use the "wealth limits" for cities in the DMG, so PC's can't go to any old town or village and expect to get acid bows +3 and dancing shields +2. Also, the more magic-laden every little village turns out to be, the less excitement one gets when an item is found in a dungeon or an adventure. Magic items have more "value" when they are a little more hard to come by, and are not taken for granted nearly as much. Many players own or have access to the DMG, MIC, etc. and for some reason come to expect that any town or city has these magic-item shops with anything available at the list price because "it's in the book". That in my opinion is a false expectation, is meta-gaming (the PC doesn't own a MIC and has probably never heard of half the stuff in there anyway!), and leads to "munchkin" and "power-gaming" groups (Gah, I hate those terms!) ROLE-PLAYING is usually not considered, just "how powerful can I be" and "how can I best min/max" is prioritized. If that's how you want your game to be run though and everyone has fun with it, then by all means go for it! I think a lot of this is brought on by computer games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, where you just walk up to some random guy in the street and he has all these incredible magic items just lying around... That's fine for the computer game, but I don't think that translates to the regular game. Having said that though, we had a DM once who let us choose our magic items initially upon character creation, which was cool because we could customize the characters a bit instead of randomly rolling ridiculously inappropriate things...

Also, PC's always have the option of playing a character that can make magic items... I find it interesting though that most of the above-mentioned PC's won't even consider this option, because it involves taking "soft" feats and spending xp-- 2 sources of kryptonite for the Power Gamer!!

An interesting note, a party I was once in had a Power Gamer player and another PC who actually was interested in role-playing... the second PC had one or two Item Creation feats and the Power Gamer PC tried to convince this player to make magic items for him! And when the second player found rules dealing with xp cost in item creation, specifically if you make an item for another character the other character can basically sacrifice his/her own xp instead of you using yours, well all of a sudden the Power Gamer was no longer interested in getting items made for him...

[DarkelvenSFi]

Originally Posted by Amazing Mumford

And when the second player found rules dealing with xp cost in item creation, specifically if you make an item for another character the other character can basically sacrifice his/her own xp instead of you using yours, well all of a sudden the Power Gamer was no longer interested in getting items made for him...

I find that pretty funny in a bad way... I get something of a savage joy in seeing people like this reveal themselves as what they are.

I think the idea behind 'get someone in town to make it' is similar to the concept of just having all the items available in store; the only difference is the wait. If players want the choice of any item available, have their characters do the work to get it (feats). There's no need to sidestep a serious aspect of role-playing realism so the characters can have things easy.

Having a mystical shop that stocks everything; even explained as a service via teleporting isn't realistic. It means that someone owns all those items, they are stored somewhere and that means it can be robbed, the PCs may be tempted by this; and put the DM in a hard spot when deciding how the theft is repelled. And it detracts from the essence of the game itself; as Mumford pointed out.

I tend to be pretty stingy with magic items and gold. The shops do have a wide selection, but rarely what suits the players. They get most of their goods out in the dungeons.

[Jhaelen]

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

1: All items available in every shop

This, up to the gp limit for the city in question. Now, the shop won't have everything in stock, but if you're willing to wait a couple of days, they'll get it for you.

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

What makes the game more enjoyable for you? Realism or accessibility.

Talking about realism in D&D always makes me wince. You'd have to overhaul the complete system if you are interested in something remotely realistic. I don't believe it's worth the effort. Try a different rpg system if this bothers you.

[DarkelvenSFi]

Originally Posted by Jhaelen

Talking about realism in D&D always makes me wince. You'd have to overhaul the complete system if you are interested in something remotely realistic. I don't believe it's worth the effort. Try a different rpg system if this bothers you.

I'm always confused as to what people mean when they say 'you cant apply realism/logic to the game'. You have to.. The whole game is built around a set of rules that make sense. Barbarians can rage, wizards can cast spells, you need charisma to use diplomacy... etc. These rules are used as guidelines for gameplay; they promote realism in an otherwise formless world.

Realism is the need for players to walk from one place to another before they can ride, fly, teleport, etc; they don't just 'get to' where they want to be. Realism is the concept of having cities/villages/towns/etc where people live. Realism is having a battle system that allows each person a turn to act. Realism is having shops in the city that don't stock everything known to man...

It's about making the game as true to life as possible; within the boundaries of life in a fantasy world.

You're creating a world that makes sense. This is where the logic and realism comes into it. The further you move from the (fantasy) realism, the more you detract from the players being immersed into the game. Your aim is to suspend disbelief in the players; immerse them so far into it that they willingly forget that it's just a game.

If you continually incorporate things into the game that don't make sense, you risk tainting the game and reducing the enjoyment players (and you) get from it.

[Jhaelen]

Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi

I'm always confused as to what people mean when they say 'you cant apply realism/logic to the game'. You have to.. The whole game is built around a set of rules that make sense. Barbarians can rage, wizards can cast spells, you need charisma to use diplomacy... etc. These rules are used as guidelines for gameplay; they promote realism in an otherwise formless world.

Errm, nope, I have to disagree.
The D&D game rules make certain assumptions to ensure a certain kind of balance. E.g. if you decide it would be more realistic that there are no magic items at all then the pcs will be in big trouble at higher levels because the rules assume they'll have a certain amount of magic items. You can still play the game but you'll have to make adjustments to restore the balance that was upset because you made that change, e.g. grant the pcs automatic bonuses at certain levels, etc.

The more changes you make to one part of the rules, the more changes you'll have to make to other parts of the rules to make the game playable again. Some feel it's worth it to get a more 'realistic' game, some feel it's not worth it. I'm clearly in the latter camp.

Search the board for any kind of thread on D&D economics and you'll see what I mean.

[Amazing Mumford]

I think I agree with the jist of DarkelvenSFi's point, there is a certain "realism" incorporated into any fantasy setting. This is in addition to the "suspension of disbelief" element in a setting... The combination of the two lend to the uniqueness of each setting-- Middle Earth, Forgotten Realms, Star Wars, Star Trek, the Marvel Universe, Shadowrun... each is fantasy, yet each has it's own "reality".

In terms of this thread, I do not think it's realistic to walk into any blacksmith's shop and find for sale on the wall every style of every weapon in D&D. Sure he/she might have several different kinds of swords, but why would they necessarily have an Orc Double-Axe or Large Masterwork Trident? When special and/or rare items become commonplace, they lose their "value". That's Economics 101 right there, simple supply and demand, as well as the Law of Diminishing Returns. I also don't think it's realistic that a player could open up the DMG/MIC etc. and go "shopping" for anything on the magic item list, even if the item is within the city's suggested gp limit. Of course a +1 sword is going to be more common than a hammersphere or healing belt, for example.

Then again, it all depends on how the gaming group works... Some DM's don't have a problem with "magic item shopping", many gaming groups tend to be different so stick with what works. But at the same time, if you're the DM, you make the rules-- provided everyone has fun, of course! I like to give my PC's options, and try to keep it a little "realistic". Melvaunt on the Moonsea, for example, (Forgotten Realms campaign, if you hadn't guessed) is known for metalsmiths and weaponmakers, arms and armor. No mage's guilds, no wizard towers, very regulated marketplace. Magic is pretty rare there, but it's certainly a place to go for high-quality weapons and armor, and due to the high supply probably at a lower price than listed in the PH (Oh no, I used economics and reasoning to alter what the print says in a core rulebook!!) I also let the party's mage know, through role-playing and gathering information (Oh no, using soft skills!!) that there are several areas around the Moonsea that have Red Wizard Enclaves, but hint that the price of magic items there, while maybe at a discount, may be more costly than the player's realize... You are dealing with evil Thayans, after all..... And also not far is the town of Hillsfar, while not being a very friendly place has (quoted from Moonsea)

"...one of the only true magic shops in the Realms."

There certainly is realism built into the Forgotten Realms, if not other settings...

[OmniChaos]

I agree with Mumford. It makes sense to me and has decent reasoning behind it. The forgotten realms setting for the most part is balanced. Places like waterdeep and lusken are hubs of trade and are expected to have a certain amount of magic items. But they wont have all and they wont have certain types of items. Not to mention who you buy it from and the effects of just buying from them. For example in waterdeep they have a few good places to get magic items but getting a magic item from blackstaff tower is not the same as getting one from the enclave of the red wizards. Not to mention skullport under waterdeep that as great or nearly as great a trade hub as waterdeep above it but with a different set of rules. You may find an item in both waterdeep and skullport, but in waterdeep you would have to pay gold for it. The same does not apply in skullport where you could simply trade it for a favor or if you are strong enough just take it by force depending on who is selling. After all in skullport murder is not the same as in waterdeep.

But as always the end result rest with the DM and how they want to do things. Personally buying things in a place like skullport would be an adventure into itself for me. I just hope I dont try and kill the shop keeper thats really a demon in a different form lol

[thedmstrikes]

I have been playing D&D since I got the red box in Jr high school. Over the years I have noticed a fundamental shift in how magic (items) is generally accumulated. In the beginning, you really only got them when you defeated something that either used it against you, or was guarding it cause it could not use it except as a lure for fresh prey. With third edition (and beyond, but I am a staunch non supporter of the latest version), you could see the fundamental shift in how things were approached by the creation of rules allowing for the design and creation of any magical items. You no longer needed to go out of your way to find that perfect item by rumour, research, or hardcore adventuring, you could just design your character, or if you were in a monty haul group, buy what you needed for that next adventure. As a DM, I have used the same campaign arc (well, I do travel alot, so I get fresh players) for the last 15 years. With each new group, things do change, even outside of the upgrade from second to third edition. The one thing that never changed, and I guess this is my main contribution to this thread, I still made certain that the party would be able to come across any special magic they needed during the course of the adventure. I made sure they knew it before they created their characters and reminded them periodically as they went along.

As an example, suppose they came to a point that they needed to do some underwater searching (adventuring). Prior to this point in the campaign, I would have made sure that each member of the party had a way to circumvent the whole breathing underwater bit before they came to the situation, or provided within the framework of that portion a way to get what they needed. If they squandered the resource because of poor planning (i.e. selling 'useless' magic), then they would have to pay through the nose, after considerable searching and travel, to replace it from some disreputable magic shop (the cost of security in those places is staggering, so of course things are expensive, it is bcause of the overhead of course). After which, I would remind them that they accumulate magic for a purpose and that purpose is not to sell it just because it does not appear to be readily useful. One time, I had a party that tried to sell an item none of them could use because of an alignment restriction. Everything was going fine, until they discovered, via ambush, that the purchasers could not afford it, so they tried to steal it (hey, they were evil after all). To make matters worse, someone else decided they wanted the item also, so it became a double ambush. I swear I did not plan any of it, I made it up as I went along. I really did not expect the party to try and sell the item and they were not getting the hint when no shops would buy it....After the double ambush, they decided that to destroy the item was the better course anyway (even though it was not necessary to the plot, they were good characters and they really did not need alignment problems because they were just getting greedy. The magic they wanted was just so expensive and they were not getting upgrades from me fast enough).

Anywho, I rambled long enough. In short, give out whatever is necessary for plot advancement through 'random' or 'placed' treasure, and just make up the rest of it as you go along.

I would also like to comment on the power gamers that dislike 'soft skills'. Every class, PRC, or what have you advantage comes with its own limitations (for example the built in stacking rules). It may seem a pain in the backside, but enforcing any of the drawbacks that may be overlooked for simplicity (i.e. role playing disadvantages for combat advantages) should go a long way to balancing these things out. Look at various ways that skills can influence the combats that these knuckleheads gear for, but never use, such as balance, knowledge (oh yeah, you will be surprised at this one), jump and others. Once the players see how these skills can be useful, they will find they need to start investing those points in other places. Feats and skills with one line descriptions are hard to abuse, but the paragraph long ones often give you the advantage up front to catch your attention, then two or three paragraphs later comes the punchline. After pointing this minor flaw in research out with certain player types in the begining, they catch the hint and make wiser choices....usually.

[DarkelvenSFi]

Originally Posted by Jhaelen

The more changes you make to one part of the rules, the more changes you'll have to make to other parts of the rules to make the game playable again. Some feel it's worth it to get a more 'realistic' game, some feel it's not worth it. I'm clearly in the latter camp.

I think we're labouring under different pretenses. I don't think 'realism' means it has to be as similar to 'real life' as possible. Realism = believable (logical) according to the game setting.

So, in this regard, any changes to the core rules, such as removing all magic to make it more (*ahem* less) realistic, would result in other dynamics in the game changing.

[OmniChaos]

I dont thank anyone should play in a setting with no magic items at all. Cause personally some monsters are just to much to handle without magical items. Can some of them even be hurt at all without magical weapons?

Well I can see where some magic items that may at 1st seem useless could come in later. But also when it comes to limiting magic items you could kinda force your players to think "outside the box" and make them work with what they have. Having everything handed to you seems more like a simple hack and slash to the end type of thing and takes away from the story aspect of the game. But maybe thats just how I see it.

Not to be off topic or anything but so called soft skills are not there for roleplaying alone. I mean if your in a city in the abyss or something akin to that your not going to fight every single demon you run into. You could use bluff and other skills to trick or get by them and if your really good you could even have them help you in a way.

[Foxworthy]

Originally Posted by Amazing Mumford

In terms of this thread, I do not think it's realistic to walk into any blacksmith's shop and find for sale on the wall every style of every weapon in D&D.

I don't think it should be about walking into a shop and finding every item ever created there on a shelf.

I feel players should be able to walk into the shop and find the item "they want". You don't need shops with every item imaginable you just need a shop that has the special items the players are looking for.

If a player goes into a blacksmiths shop looking for a magical dwarven urgosh and they only have magical swords then the players is being penalized for wanting something different. The players are penalized enough by having to sell magic items for half price despite the fact that if they are rare enough to be hard to find then they'd be more equivilant to art pieces then normal gear and should sell for full price since magic items rarely pop up for sale.

Assuming of course that the GP limits of the town allow for the items.

The PC's are assumed by the system to need gear to survive, forcing them to use gear that they don't want because the stuff they do want seems rarer seems a bit unfair to the players.

[OmniChaos]

Originally Posted by Foxworthy

If a player goes into a blacksmiths shop looking for a magical dwarven urgosh and they only have magical swords then the players is being penalized for wanting something different.

Well you see what I want to know is if your in a dwarf blacksmith shop. Because unless your in a big trade hub city, I dont really see a village blacksmith even knowing about these much less having one. You kinda see my point. If your playing or using things that are exclusive, dont expect them to be everywhere like a common item. Swords are common weapons but other weapons are not so common. So if your using something that is beyond the norm then expect to suffer the drawbacks of it as well. Thats why its best to make your PC relate to the setting. I will even give you a example, I am not going to walk into a village or town blacksmith and ask for a flutter blade or pincer staff much less a magical one. I can understand having some magical weapons but I dont expect them to have any magical weapon that "you need". You get where I am going with this. If everything went your way it would not be much of logical world and would not be that fine.

Well the point is the setting is not there to give you everything you want and to make sure you win. Why play something thats easy and you know you will always win. Victory is nothing without the real chance of defeat. But maybe thats just how I like it lol

[Amazing Mumford]

I don't think I necessarily agree with you, Foxworthy-- I do to a point, as in you shouldn't be unfair to the PC's, I agree with that... But very often you get PC "abusers", mostly the min/maxers and power-gamers. And they usually always want the BEST item possible-- i.e. the most powerful, the most damage for the cheapest price, or the item that will compliment them perfectly and stack with everything else they have, etc. etc. I don't think you should spoil the PC's, cuz if you give them an inch they will take a mile... You don't always get what you want, especially as easy as walking into a store and grabbing it off the shelf. A +1 longsword might readily be available, but make the PC's work a bit more if they want something exotic like a Keen Katana or Adamantine Urgosh. That's what makes it exotic, a little more special, and more rare. Have the PC's use diplomacy/gather information or something to discover the location or name of a merchant who has recently come from Kara-Tur, for example, and might have that Keen Katana that the PC is drooling over... or know where they can find one! Use your imagination, have fun with it, but don't give them unlimited access on a silver platter.

I do tailor things on occasion though, especially if the PC's deserve it, or if they have a cleric with Weapon Focus for the deity's chosen weapon, for example. Maybe that magic sword at the end of a dungeon is instead a magical great-axe or magical staff... I do not intentionally give the PC's mostly "unusable" items, that leads to frustration which doesn't lead to a good time...

Of course the system assumes that the PC's have gear, but that doesn't mean they get everything customed and tailored. I have found that a PC with total choice over his/her items is going to be much more powerful than the PC with random items found on adventures and having to have sold some items because they didn't all happen to be "perfect". I think the RAW assumes more of the latter, with a bit of randomness thrown in, and of course common items being more prolific...

Of course, as I have said before, use what works for your gaming group... We had a DM that let us choose and customize our items, and we plowed through so many average encounters so easily the DM had to start throwing deadly encounters at us just to have a challenge...

[DarkelvenSFi]

Originally Posted by Foxworthy

I don't think it should be about walking into a shop and finding every item ever created there on a shelf.

I feel players should be able to walk into the shop and find the item "they want".

Those two comments seem to contradict each other in terms of game-play. If the shop has the items the players want, they may as well have every item available; as the players will only buy the ones they want anyhow...

Getting the best items should be a challenge. Saying 'you can have what you want' is similar (in a loose way) to letting the players not die when they reach -10 hipoints (even if you invent a fancy excuse). You're catering to the desires of the players in bending the rules/realism of the game.

If the players find a sparce village next to a well that can support only 30 people; the village has no weaponsmith or magic user. They should not be able to buy any potion or magical weapon from the local shop. There might be some, due to trade, but overall, they're just not going to have certain types of items.

The more I think about it, creating a system whereby players can choose the items they buy from a list of all items, feels like a digression back to the 'cowboys and indians' school-yard game. It's all in the effort of keeping players happy and the workload of DMs light.

But after my half-rant.. it does come down to the DM :P I've got no problem with others playing the game the way they want. I'll put forward my views on what's appropriate, but at the end of the day, each person will decide for themselves.

[Oryan77]

I don't even have magic item shops in our campaign...and I'm even running a 3.5 Planescape campaign

I've just always hated the idea of a magic item shop. I won't go into all the many reasons why, but the main reason is that it just makes magic items mundane & not very special. For me, part of the enjoyment I get from DMing is seeing the surprise and excitement on a players face when they find a cool magic item that they didn't expect to find.

I do have alchemists in cities & towns that will make them potions. Churches will make divine scrolls & wizards will make arcane scrolls. If a player wants a specific item, they have to have a good reason for why their PC would even know that item exists (reading about it in the DMG does not mean the PC would know about it or even think about it's possible existence). If they have a good reason, they can ask around and try to locate one for sale or pay someone to make it.

A +1 item would be a bit easier to obtain this way, but anything else will be hard to find & cost a lot more than what the DMG says. Again, for me, it's metagaming if a player argues about the price difference just because he read that it's cheaper in the DMG. My campaign doesn't have Ebay or the Magic Item Price Guide for PCs to refer to for magic item values

Oh, I do have 1 magic item shop, in Sigil. Akin the Friendly Fiend's shop. But he's used for roleplaying & a source for item IDing. All of his items are almost useless, and meant to be comedy relief. PCs like to look at his goods, but they usually don't want to spend money on any of it.

[Amazing Mumford]

Originally Posted by Oryan77

I don't even have magic item shops in our campaign...and I'm even running a 3.5 Planescape campaign

I do have alchemists in cities & towns that will make them potions. Churches will make divine scrolls & wizards will make arcane scrolls. If a player wants a specific item, they have to have a good reason for why their PC would even know that item exists (reading about it in the DMG does not mean the PC would know about it or even think about it's possible existence). If they have a good reason, they can ask around and try to locate one for sale or pay someone to make it.

A +1 item would be a bit easier to obtain this way, but anything else will be hard to find & cost a lot more than what the DMG says. Again, for me, it's metagaming if a player argues about the price difference just because he read that it's cheaper in the DMG. My campaign doesn't have Ebay or the Magic Item Price Guide for PCs to refer to for magic item values

Oh, I do have 1 magic item shop, in Sigil. Akin the Friendly Fiend's shop. But he's used for roleplaying & a source for item IDing. All of his items are almost useless, and meant to be comedy relief. PCs like to look at his goods, but they usually don't want to spend money on any of it.

Wow, harsh!! Well maybe throw 'em a bone every once in a while! Especially in Planescape!! But I TOTALLY agree with you about PC's not necessarily knowing about items... A Power Gamer I used to game with would ALWAYS try to justify why his PC would order VERY specific items, like an "acid bow" for example... ("Well, I'm sure I have heard of other kinds of magic bows, so I should be able to imagine that there are acid bows...") Yeah, needless to say that the Power Gamer wanted the acid bow because (total meta-gaming) more monsters are immune to fire, cold, and/or electricity... Maybe with pretty high Knowledge Arcana rolls, or if he/she had actually seen one in use...