Those two comments seem to contradict each other in terms of game-play. If the shop has the items the players want, they may as well have every item available; as the players will only buy the ones they want anyhow....
I'm not sure, but I think Foxworthy is saying the same thing I tried to say in my last post.
The player can have any item he wants. The character can't. In order to understand this you have to understand the difference between the character and the player.
Do you apply some dice-rolling method when players want to "spend" their XP?
" 'Another level of wizard' you say? <rolls> Sorry - no wizard training available. You have to settle for a level of commoner. Good thing I rolled the dice eh - otherwise there'd be no challenge."
Again, just because a DM allows players to choose any class or PrC* (as long as it's possible/reasonable in the campaign world) doesn't mean every little town has hundreds of schools dedicated to training adventurers in every possible skill or ability. The player can choose to do almost anything, the character can't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
Getting the best items should be a challenge.
It is a challenge. You need enough gp to buy what you want.
Truth be told.. I allow my players the option to have the base classes as per the players hand book; it is their handbook so to speak.
Regarding magic items and monsters, I ask that the players not look at the books. This will likely be a contested concept within the boards for several reasons.. but for the moment it works well; the characters cannot be expected to know about every creature/magic item in the world. It also helps to avoid issues about price and monster difficulty.
Regarding prestige classes.. I've only recently decided to implement them into my current game. But I'll be incorporating them into the story itself. So, an an example, at some point the Rogue in the group will meet people in the game of certain prestige classes; and can request training. Once that requirement has been met, then I wont enforce any rolls in the future to determine whether anyone is 'in the area' to teach them. I see this requirement as being met in the same way that wizards gain their 2 additional spells at each level; as research happening 'behind the scenes'.
If the players want to know something about a monster they're facing, I roll a knowledge check and give them the relevant details.
Their knowledge of magic items is limited to what they find, what they see in the magic item shops, and to some extent, what they are able to create from their feats. For creating items, I get an idea from them of what they want, and I'll provide them with a list of items that match or nearly meet their needs.
But saying all that.. I can see your point relating to the 'players having' and 'characters having'. But I'm now confused as to how that distinction makes any difference to letting the characters buy any item they want/can afford.
So; I guess my comment should have been "If the shop has the items the characters want, they may as well have every item available; as the characters will only buy the ones they want anyhow..."
I am glad Iku came back to repeat his idea because it is one I have never seen before in all the "magic Wal-Mart" discussions on EnWorld. The "GP as XP" idea is an interesting comparison: why do people make it harder to level up your equipment than your character? You level up a cleric and 50 new spells automatically pop into your repertoire. You earn 10,000 gp and where that new flaming guisarme comes from is a major difficulty?
Quote:
I feel the players are penalized enough by selling magic items for half their value to turn around and tell them that the item they need isn't available feels like being a bit too hard.
I made this even worse -- I made it one-quarter to sell back, so that there is an incentive to keep the offbeat items the DM gives in treasure instead of trading in for +1 swords. But looking at it from Iku's perspective, that would be like picking what new spells a wizard can take this level because the DM wants to see more variety. I think I might waive this house rule and trust the PCs to buy interesting magic items themselves.
Now, the shop won't have everything in stock, but if you're willing to wait a couple of days, they'll get it for you.
Why does anyone feel that this is unrealistic?
Is there sufficient demand for magic items that creating them (to order) and selling them is profitable?
If so, there will be magic item shops.
Now will these magic item shops actually have magic items in stock?
I actually don't think so, except maybe stuff like potions of healing. There's simply too many of them, they're very expensive and you'd have to protect against potential thieves.
This is actually part of the reason I have trouble seeing anyone buy magic items from pcs even at half price, unless they're commonly requested.
Now, magic items are created by (n)pcs that have the required item creation feats. A shop owner will either craft them himself or hire crafters to create them (on order). In the former case it's possible that you will only be able to order a subset of magic items because the owner is either lacking the required feat or access to the required spells. In the latter case it may require some negotiation but in principle everything can be crafted by contacting the right (n)pc(s).
You'll probably have to pay at least half the item's price in advance.
Then you wait for the item to be created (and maybe shipped to the shop).
Now, why does anyone feel this isn't a reasonable scenario in a world where it is possible to create magic items without any risk or chance of failure?
How about you turn it about and suggest that your players should take feats in magic item creation to create items (and spend XP) for everyone else in the game... if they get upset about the suggestion, then maybe you'll have taken one step in understanding why it's unreasonable to expect that the PCs be able to have any item they want created by the next available shop merchant; it requires adventurers to make them - adventurers that have taken item creation feats over more beneficial ones.
You're question then comes down to the sort of world you're working in. Is there a vast number of ex-adventurers who have the ability to craft magic items? If 'yes', then it may be realistic to ask that PCs have any item available.. but keep in mind that these retirees are expending XP to continually make items, and they themselves should be limited in the number of magic items they know about.
Oddly, I get a mental image of a hive workshop where all ex-adventurers go; their life after adventuring is making magic items for the new round of adventurers :P
But back to our example; you're in a world that has say 5 nearby cities. Two of these are quite large. Your PCs are after a specific and powerful sword. Out of these cities, only four have information on the swords, two have a series of people that could create them. But only one is not too busy with other things; and then he charges so much (for a good job) that it may be better waiting. So your PCs have to firstly be in a city with details of the sword, find these details, find a name, hope it's the right one, and then find the person (maybe in a different city; who's circumstances might have changed by the time the PCs got there).
Is this the sort of system you're implementing with letting PCs have any item?
Maybe you're starting to see why it's unrealistic to suggest that the PCs have access to every magic item in the books. You may be ready to accept that the PCs don't know of every item available, but you've not made the next step in assuming that the rest of the town/realm/world doesn't know either.
I think this really comes down to the system. I see little difference between having a shop that sells everything and a shop that makes items on order. If you allow one, then you're just that bare step away from offering the other. Both seem unrealistic for different reasons.
I do have alchemists in cities & towns that will make them potions. Churches will make divine scrolls & wizards will make arcane scrolls. If a player wants a specific item, they have to have a good reason for why their PC would even know that item exists (reading about it in the DMG does not mean the PC would know about it or even think about it's possible existence). If they have a good reason, they can ask around and try to locate one for sale or pay someone to make it.
I kinda like that idea. I mean how does you PC even know about it. The only kind of PCs that should know alot about magic are those that use it. I dont expect the barbarian to know about magic weapons much less where to find them. I do like the idea of having to make skill checks to find out about them and stuff. Make use of all that int that wizards have for more then powering their spells. lol Even a smooth talking rogue or sorcerer could get information for the party about magic items. Then after the PCs know about it the players can go thru the motions of finding their items or having them made for them.
Seems like a balanced way to get what you want but not have it given to you.
Those two comments seem to contradict each other in terms of game-play. If the shop has the items the players want, they may as well have every item available; as the players will only buy the ones they want anyhow...
Exactly the players get what they want for their characters but the illusion of the shop being filled to the brim with magic items isn't there. It's a way to give players what they want without having to sacrifice the realism of magic item shops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
Getting the best items should be a challenge. Saying 'you can have what you want' is similar (in a loose way) to letting the players not die when they reach -10 hipoints (even if you invent a fancy excuse). You're catering to the desires of the players in bending the rules/realism of the game.
Getting items is still a challenge. The players need to face challenges to get the loot they end up selling for half in order to get the gear they want. And comparing my idea to a house rule about PC's not dieing is a bit off. Especially since I'm mentioned using the DM Guide rules on GP Limits in Community Wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
If the players find a sparce village next to a well that can support only 30 people; the village has no weaponsmith or magic user. They should not be able to buy any potion or magical weapon from the local shop. There might be some, due to trade, but overall, they're just not going to have certain types of items.
Of course not, the community has a 40gp limit and a max amount of cash on hand of 300 gold.
But the players should be able to find anything they want that cost less than 40gp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
The more I think about it, creating a system whereby players can choose the items they buy from a list of all items, feels like a digression back to the 'cowboys and indians' school-yard game. It's all in the effort of keeping players happy and the workload of DMs light.
But after my half-rant.. it does come down to the DM :P I've got no problem with others playing the game the way they want. I'll put forward my views on what's appropriate, but at the end of the day, each person will decide for themselves.
Well sure it's a game so keeping the players [including the DM] happy should be the primary goal.
Telling the players that the DM is going to limit the magic item options inorder to prevent the players from getting the good items, despite the fact that by the DM Guide and MIC they should be able to buy them seems more like punishment to the players.
If your players like that, more power to you becaus elike you said it comes out to what works for each DM and group. Which is one of the good things about DnD, you can always find a group catering to the game style you prefere.
How about you turn it about and suggest that your players should take feats in magic item creation to create items (and spend XP) for everyone else in the game... if they get upset about the suggestion, then maybe you'll have taken one step in understanding why it's unreasonable to expect that the PCs be able to have any item they want created by the next available shop merchant; it requires adventurers to make them - adventurers that have taken item creation feats over more beneficial ones.
I guess it will surprise you then that magic item creation feats are quite popular in my game. There's always at least one pc that can create magic items. If they'd be able to make money by creating items (which npcs can), I'm absolutely sure they'd create items for everyone else.
Regarding the xp cost: Maybe this is news to you but spending xp is actually a good thing!
Once you lag behind a level you get more xp out of every encounter. This more than makes up for the loss of xp spent to create items.
Anyway, I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise and you're free to play the game any way you like if you don't mind the extra work of changing stuff and your players are fine with it, too. So: happy gaming!
I am glad Iku came back to repeat his idea because it is one I have never seen before in all the "magic Wal-Mart" discussions on EnWorld. The "GP as XP" idea is an interesting comparison: why do people make it harder to level up your equipment than your character? You level up a cleric and 50 new spells automatically pop into your repertoire. You earn 10,000 gp and where that new flaming guisarme comes from is a major difficulty?
I think comparing "gp" to "xp" is really apples and oranges. First of all, I DO NOT want to get into the whole "leveling" discussion-- some groups have mandatory training, some groups do it automatically, etc. etc.-- NOT the point on this thread. Having said that, "leveling" and "getting treasure" are totally different. When a PC has enough xp to gain a level, that PC automatically gets a bunch of stuff he/she is entitled to. The PC picks skills, feats, ability point allocation, etc. Some gaming groups have restrictions on spells, I can kinda see this-- maybe your wizard that just reached 9th lvl can't choose to get halaster's fetch II because that's a very rare spell-- wizards make their own spells after all, and they aren't always "publicly" available. Also, maybe if you're a cleric "50 spells" don't automatically pop into your head-- it makes sense to me that divine spells would be "filtered" by the dieties portfolio's. If you worship Auril maybe flame strike, earth reaver, lava splash, meteoric strike, parboil, and stonefire won't be available to your cleric that just turned 9th-lvl.
But other than that, leveling up gives the PC's things they are entitled to per the PH. Magic items, on the other hand, is a totally different thing altogether. It doesn't say anywhere in the PH that PC's are entitled to "go shopping" with whatever magic item list they find. Yes, the game assumes the PC's have gear, but if a PC group has all-tailored and customed gear than balance is thrown out of whack. Also, there is the issue that PC's DO NOT have a DMG or MIC to browse through, the PC's have no knowledge of all the magic items out there. Yes, certain things are definitely more common knowledge, but maybe that's what Knowledge: Arcana is for, or Gather Information. Plus, having unlimited access to whatever magic is out there ruins finding "cool" magic items in the adventure. PC's could care less if they find a ioun stone or figurine of wonderous power if those are available at any town that has a listed price range (or as I like to call it MSRP!) I think the game assumes a certain randomness of gear, it also makes the PC's better PC's for having to think "outside the box" sometimes. Your PC shouldn't be defined by his/her gear. Otherwise you're just playing a paper doll with equipment, and if the equipment gets lost/stolen/disjoined/broken than your character is "useless"? Definitely not so! Raistlin is still Raistlin with or without the Staff of the Magius. Drizzt is still Drizzt no matter what scimitars he has, and if I recall he did fine for awhile even without his panther figurine.
All that being said, as I have said before, I don't think the idea is to make it impossible for PC's to buy certain items, just don't hand them everything on a silver platter. If you have a dwarven Paladin of Moradin, make the "magic sword" at the end of the adventure a warhammer instead! Or if the Arcane Archer wants a new bow, it's fine to pick up a +1 or +2 bow in say Waterdeep or Calimport but throw a hint or rumor that a green dragon or evil druid might have a (insert special power here) bow as loot after destroying a powerful ranger's hunting lodge in the woods or something. That way they go on the adventure and they don't end up with useless gear! And it has always been my view that PC's can actually "use" a lot of the treasure they come across, they just get whiny because it doesn't happen to be the most beneficial or most highly optimized weapon/staff/spell. If you're a fighter and choose to specialize in a very exotic item, then you should not expect to find this item everywhere you go in the world! That's the drawback of picking the super-cool weapon with it's advantages over a more common weapon. God forbid the fighter PC with Weapon Focus: Mercurial Longsword might have to settle for a regular longsword for a little while because that's what treasure the monster had! I'm not saying make it impossible for that PC to eventually find a cool mercurial longsword, I'm just saying that not every blacksmith/weaponsmith will have one. And just where did the fighter get the idea anyway to ask for a +1 Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword of Quickness?? The fighter didn't, the PC did after he looked at all the options available in various books. That's meta-gaming! Hey, if it works for your group, then go for it.....
Generally I'm running with Aboyd here. In 30 years of DnD I've never had a Wal-Mart magic item shop. As a player or DM, and our games never suffered.
Now if we as PC's got magic items and eventually wanted to sell one, it seems to reason that others in the world would come to the same situation and there would be a small market for magic.
These generally took place in larger cities, in the Wizards Guild, and was a chore to buy/sell, heck - even to get IN. You never get full price for magic you sell, and are never guarenteed to find what you want. Potions and scrolls being easier. Sometimes you'd find a shop for potions, or a smith might have a +1 sword or whatever. Clerical items easier to come by (maybe) at a large temple.
I generally go by the rule that if you want magic items, go out and FIND them. Sometimes one can gather info on a specific item, for example I had a PC once really really want a two handed vorpal sword. He was able to find info on the location of one... owned by a Death Knight... he never went for it, still had fun with his PC... who had a vampiric ring of regeneration mind you! :^)
Whatever trips your trigger, that's my game though and we have fun!
Anyway, I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise and you're free to play the game any way you like if you don't mind the extra work of changing stuff and your players are fine with it, too. So: happy gaming!
I don't think I came in here with the intention of having people change their game play. Initially to get an idea of other peoples thoughts, and then to defend my methods.. but I don't think anyone here is doing anything more than explaining how other peoples system wouldn't work within their game setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhaelen
But the players should be able to find anything they want that cost less than 40gp.
I think the issue here is that these communities (regardless of size) may have a limit of (eg) 50,000gp for magic items, but due to the sheer number of items, might have several million gold pieces worth of stock. Or the counter side, have someone available that knows of and is able to create any magic item.
If this was the case in my campaign, the shop would be robbed (or attempted), and that *ahem* magical NPC with the magic item feats would be captured and put to work under armed guard.
The concept for me, or I should say my players, lends itself to a range of complications. I cannot say "for arguments' sake, every item is available, but you cannot steal it"; it detracts from the gameplay and feels like I'm breaking the rules for the benefit of the players.
All my shopkeepers have a limited number of goods and are of a certain level related to their goods (the protection of those goods). They have guards, and traps and magical wards, etc to prevent theft. The players know this and accept that there's a risk in attempting to steal what's available.
You could argue that I am able to do a similar thing for the 'all items' option, but then I'm further complicating the system to prevent the players breaking the game; so they don't get everything they want - or is that not a bad thing?
As a curiosity; how do your players know they aren't meant to or cannot steal from the shops or kidnap the item creator. Is it a verbal agreement out of game or something present in-game?
God forbid the fighter PC with Weapon Focus: Mercurial Longsword might have to settle for a regular longsword for a little while because that's what treasure the monster had! I'm not saying make it impossible for that PC to eventually find a cool mercurial longsword, I'm just saying that not every blacksmith/weaponsmith will have one. And just where did the fighter get the idea anyway to ask for a +1 Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword of Quickness?? The fighter didn't, the PC did after he looked at all the options available in various books. That's meta-gaming! Hey, if it works for your group, then go for it.....
"The fighter didn't, the PC did" is a kettle of fish. But the main thing I want to say is related to the Treasure Tables post Lead with the Cool Stuff. Cool has an expiration date. If you don't get that +1 Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword of Quickness into that fighter's hands right now, odds are it will be too late. The fighter will get turned to stone, or decide to take some levels in monk, or the player will decide it's just not that cool any more. Delaying the cool means there's less cool now and less cool later, like a kid who won't let himself play Skee-Ball because he doesn't want to get bored with it when he's 18.
I think the issue here is that these communities (regardless of size) may have a limit of (eg) 50,000gp for magic items, but due to the sheer number of items, might have several million gold pieces worth of stock. Or the counter side, have someone available that knows of and is able to create any magic item.
If this was the case in my campaign, the shop would be robbed (or attempted), and that *ahem* magical NPC with the magic item feats would be captured and put to work under armed guard.
The rules for community wealth means that no "magic shops" exit. Their isn't one store for the players to walk into and browse [Or case]. The rules on it state that using community wealth guidelines is abstracting the search for the items. The players may find the belt of strength they are looking for in the back of a curio shop while another PC finds some scrolls to buy off the old wizard done the block. WIth the MIC adding that if you need an item extremely quickly that Gather Info checks would be needed.
Since you have no store, you have no stock. Sure if the players are looking for a specific item they could rob the person who has it, but in order to get the stock of items in the town they'd need to rob the whole town of both magical and mundane items.
Which is far beyond being able to rob a single store, and if your players are robbing cities more power to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
The concept for me, or I should say my players, lends itself to a range of complications. I cannot say "for arguments' sake, every item is available, but you cannot steal it"; it detracts from the gameplay and feels like I'm breaking the rules for the benefit of the players.
Well for arguments sake say the items you're looking for are available rather than any item is available. The difference is that the players get the items they are looking for, and the characters don't need to know the town had any other options.
I don't know why it feels like breaking the rules [assuming 3.5 ruleset] because the DMG rules support the idea that any item under the community wealth be available [with the caveat to make certain exceptions for times of rapid growth or extreme decline]. Though the MIC adds the further caveat that if want you can make an adventure about finding a particular magic item. if it with further the story to do so.
Now 2E and before I completely agree. The game was set up far differently when it came to players gaining magic items. The game was set up that wealth was the main reward for XP, where as in 3.5 gaining wealth was just a way to be able to compete against increasingly powerful enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
All my shopkeepers have a limited number of goods and are of a certain level related to their goods (the protection of those goods). They have guards, and traps and magical wards, etc to prevent theft. The players know this and accept that there's a risk in attempting to steal what's available.
You could argue that I am able to do a similar thing for the 'all items' option, but then I'm further complicating the system to prevent the players breaking the game; so they don't get everything they want - or is that not a bad thing?
Well if you want to detail every shop to such a degree than more power to you. I haven't run across a 3.0/3.5 group that has thought they could rob a magic shop [though they did attempt to rob a bank, but that was in the adventure].
As for being a bad thing, I don't play in your game so I wouldn't be able to judge. Personally for me it would be a bad thing because I see no reason to house rule away the DMG rules on players finding items in towns. To me that feels like I'd be breaking the rules to benefit the GM and spite the players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
As a curiosity; how do your players know they aren't meant to or cannot steal from the shops or kidnap the item creator. Is it a verbal agreement out of game or something present in-game?
Well they did that stuff all the time in 2E and 1E but they never even brought it up in 3.0/3.5
I think that they understood that the items aren't coming from one shop but some could be coming from and old widow who's husband died from poison after an adventure and has been selling off his meager surplies to survive while another players +1 mithral chainshirt could have been found in the stores of the local barracks and the commander maybe willing to sell it to feed his own pockets.
And while both options could be expanded into adventures or stories in most cases it would be a simple side track that would just get in the way of the main plot(s) of the campaign.
the DMG rules support the idea that any item under the community wealth be available
But those limits are so low I never took them seriously. How are you gonna run a points of light campaign if you have to put in a large town every time a fourth-level character wants to buy something big and a small city for every eighth-level.
But those limits are so low I never took them seriously. How are you gonna run a points of light campaign if you have to put in a large town every time a fourth-level character wants to buy something big and a small city for every eighth-level.
I don't really run a points of light setting, but I'm sure if you wanted the players to be able to buy items you could justify bumping the gp limits up as part of a boom period and could help make other towns worse by lowering the gp limit as a bust period.
Just like all settings though it's up to the DM to do what's best for their game.
Great points Foxworthy. I really appreciate the different view on things. I never considered that there isn't/shouldn't be magic item shops. I guess I gathered the idea of magic item shops from the games like baldur's gate and neverwinter nights that incorporate them.
But having the players have to run search and acquire scenarios within town to buy their magic items seems like more of an effort to me than setting up shops for it. But then I've gone to the trouble of setting up a system that pre-generates shops, keepers, guards, etc dependent on the city size. I just roll up and save the details that I like.
When the players enter the town, they hire a guide to take them to a specific shop/inn/guild/etc and take a look at what's on offer. This allows them to focus on the combat gaming rather than what someone so eloquently labled as 'shopping and dragons'.
This also helps with the campaign setting as the players don't get/have to look through a pile of books on magic items; they just take a look at what's on offer in the shop and buy it if they like it (and can afford it).
But then my players are kinda combat oriented; constantly. The latest example is of a trade between two groups of undead and pirates in-game that the characters stumble upon, their initial reaction is 'gold and weapons = attack everyone, try to take it all'. No stopping to ask questions of the participants.. not even to assess the danger: they're on an island between a large crypt and a pirate vessle full of unsavory characters.
Our session ended with the wizard opting to use telekinesis on the boat with the weapons (despite it having an ocupant).
Needless to say, having a shop that sells everything would have similar consequences. Much the same as having them find each specific item they're after; such as in the back of a curio shop or a wayward merchant; little stopping them just taking it. A well protected shop (of limited supply) sidesteps these issues nicely.
One of the players is also in another group that.. for lack of a better word, criticized this approach, saying that each shop should have all items and allow players to choose what they wanted; after perusing the PHB, DMG and Magic Item Compendium.
The assumption is that anything under the GP limit is available to purchase. If a town has a GP limit of 3,000gp then you should be able to find nearly anything you want up to that value. You can even buy really cool stuff like light mithril armor etc...
'Magic item shops' are a DM created limitation...saying u can only get magic items from a specific shop is unrealistic. That would be like me shopping for a toaster oven, but somehow I can only look for it at stores called Nappa Auto Parts. There are any number of other ways one could procure magic items. It's meant to be kept abstract, so that the DM doesn't have to detail out 980 shops and NPCs and individual inventories. Most of the time you see the party go to town and offload their treasure, then they spend a week or 2 in town looking for the things they want, most of the time any individual PC is only looking for 1 or 2 specific things. Or in the unfortunate cases they have a list of 10-15 things they want because the DM never lets any items they want be in stock, or the DM does the dreaded %(and its always small) chance roll on every single item. 1 of 2 things happens, the PCs will sit there for months if they have to until they find what they want, or the DM will force them back onto the story arc, annoying the PCs in the process because they are gaining more levels but they can't find gear that NPCs 3 levels below them get for free (of the DMG). Especially since most of the time, the PCs want items that make sense for someone to create. Stat bonus items, cloaks of resistance, magic armor, rings of protection, magic weapons are all things that anybody could deal in and find buyers/sellers.
I find the assumption that only adventurers can create magic items flawed...Unless the DM rules that killing things is the only way to get exp. NPCs can get Exp from other things, just like PCs typically can (story rewards, completing quests/goals, political intrigue etc...). Plus who's to say that Bob the 5th level wizard with 2 crafting feats doesn't occasionally go visit his cousin Daryl the next town over and help thin out the local Gnoll population.
Trying to disect character knowlege vs player knowlege is another DM cop out...It's a really really bad idea unless you want characters to keep detailed lists of every item they've ever learned about and the title/contents of every book their character ever read, every conversation with the wizard, etc...Plus it makes the players say silly things like 'I ask bob the wizard to tell me about every magic item he knows how to create, what items can I know about shopping for now?' or 'Hrmm...I'd really like to find a magic ring that somehow protects me from getting hurt' then the DM goes 'ZOMG u meta-gamed! 50 DKP minus!'
I've played in games where finding anything at all, required knowlege local checks or gather information checks. If I wanted to buy a horse I had to make 2 rolls...once for the horse and again for the tack/harness, thankfully we could find food without a roll. Shopping turned into 4 hour roll-a-thons and usually ended with the 10-15 item list I talked about earlier. The only characters who always had what they wanted were the rogues and bards because they had the social skills. Something is wrong when you have 3-4 items PER SLOT you're willing to settle for with 20k price differences and none of it is ever available...or you get the 'Oh you found someone willing to make it for you, but you have to pay for it now, and it won't be ready for 3 months' Cuz by then you'll be 9 levels higher with 100k more in unspendable gold.
We're currently doing Age of Wyrms campaign, and we've only been adventuring for like 2 months but we've gone from 1st to 11th level. Thankfully this game has much more relaxed 'shopping rules' or we'd still be waiting on those +1 swords we had comissioned at 3rd level.
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Great points Foxworthy. I really appreciate the different view on things. I never considered that there isn't/shouldn't be magic item shops. I guess I gathered the idea of magic item shops from the games like baldur's gate and neverwinter nights that incorporate them.
But having the players have to run search and acquire scenarios within town to buy their magic items seems like more of an effort to me than setting up shops for it. But then I've gone to the trouble of setting up a system that pre-generates shops, keepers, guards, etc dependent on the city size. I just roll up and save the details that I like.
When the players enter the town, they hire a guide to take them to a specific shop/inn/guild/etc and take a look at what's on offer. This allows them to focus on the combat gaming rather than what someone so eloquently labled as 'shopping and dragons'.
This also helps with the campaign setting as the players don't get/have to look through a pile of books on magic items; they just take a look at what's on offer in the shop and buy it if they like it (and can afford it).
But then my players are kinda combat oriented; constantly. The latest example is of a trade between two groups of undead and pirates in-game that the characters stumble upon, their initial reaction is 'gold and weapons = attack everyone, try to take it all'. No stopping to ask questions of the participants.. not even to assess the danger: they're on an island between a large crypt and a pirate vessle full of unsavory characters.
Our session ended with the wizard opting to use telekinesis on the boat with the weapons (despite it having an ocupant).
Needless to say, having a shop that sells everything would have similar consequences. Much the same as having them find each specific item they're after; such as in the back of a curio shop or a wayward merchant; little stopping them just taking it. A well protected shop (of limited supply) sidesteps these issues nicely.
Well I want to point out that the general assumption the MIC makes is that you don't have to roll unless you can't wait for the item. So if you have a day to search the town for items under the GP limit you can find it without needing rolls or mini adventures. It's just one of the things that 3.5 abstracts away to focus more on the action/story.
But of course if your players want to rob and pillage anything they can, obviously abstracting the purchase of items wouldn't be fun for them. Because you can't pillage an abstract idea. And really what's fun for them is far more important than anything else.
Now the group I play with [I don't GM anymore, not enough time] would hate choosing items from a DM created list because sometimes the DM just doesn't understand what the player feels is important. Like my characters cloak of weaponry, I'd be seriously bummed if I couldn't have gotten a cloak of weaponry because it just make smy life easier without forcing me to drop my off hand weapon everytime I need an utility item [potion, wand, bag of boulders etc] to be used.
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