The idea of having magic shops or having players roll through search and acquire checks to find specific items (or to find someone to make the item) both seem quite similar to me now... the only difference is the play-time involved. With the magic shop, the DM has pregenerated the goods that the players could reasonably find in that town. They're effectively replacing extensive 'shopping time' and allowing for more 'story/combat time'.
Don't discount the option of "no magic shop" and players don't have to roll to find items below the GP Limit of the town. Because that eliminates both the rolls, the DM created list, and ensures the players get what they really want [usually]
Of course that option comes at the expense of magic items seeming rare and makes them less unique.
But your 100% right that the best option is what works the best for the DM and his group. Which is the most important thing for anyone to take out of this thread.
Don't discount the option of "no magic shop" and players don't have to roll to find items below the GP Limit of the town. Because that eliminates both the rolls, the DM created list, and ensures the players get what they really want [usually]
But the players get gold during their encounters? How are they going to spend all their cold (not so) hard gold if not on a vast array of magic items?
Or do you (or the games your referring to) have alternative methods for wealth dispersion; maybe a player owned castle, or multiple wives, poison's/traps and general (platinum plated) goods, or do they just have expensive habits?
But the players get gold during their encounters? How are they going to spend all their cold (not so) hard gold if not on a vast array of magic items?
Or do you (or the games your referring to) have alternative methods for wealth dispersion; maybe a player owned castle, or multiple wives, poison's/traps and general (platinum plated) goods, or do they just have expensive habits?
Sorry I should have been more clear. I meant no magic shops but magic items could still be purchased. Either through retired adventurers, castle stores, thieves guilds, or places like curio shops, bookstores, and such.
But not require the players to roll to find stuff from all the random sources. Which is what make the magic seem less rare and not as unique.
Though games without magic items can be fun as well, some monster become way too hard though in that case.
I actually find it a bit insulting to be accused of throwing rules in the DM's face to get my way. That would be like me asking how many DM's like you bully players into only taking the magic items you want them to take and that they don't want. It's most likely a false statement and reads like a insulting little jab to discredit the other person's point of view. I personally don't appreciate that.
Why are you playing victim as if I'm attacking you personally? I've done no such thing and have based everything I've said with what you have written in this thread. And what I have said has not been an attack in any way. There are much more important things in life to be insulted about than whatever it is you're getting from my posts. I'm not trying to insult you man, I'm just having a debate about magic item shops.
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None. 0 Reasonable players are going to throw a DMG quote into the DM's face
You've been throwing the DMG quote around this thread multiple times. So I'm not sure why you're now relating all of this to specifically being at the gaming table with friends.
I'm not talking about players at our tables, I'm speaking in general. My point is that you are using the DMG quote to prove your point as if that makes your way right & my way wrong. In general, players will use that quote in the DMG to tell DMs like myself that we are running our game world wrong or unfairly.
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The DM was reasonable enough to inform the players that he house ruled it before it came up in game. The players being informed of the change and being reasonable understand that the DM has the right to house rule things. As reasonable people they know that if they don't like the DM's rules they don't need to play.
Maybe in a perfect world, players are that reasonable. But I've encountered plenty that are not like that. I mean, again, this thread wouldn't exist if what you are trying to say was how things really are:
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Originally Posted by DarkelvenSFi
One of the players is also in another group that.. for lack of a better word, criticized this approach, saying that each shop should have all items and allow players to choose what they wanted; after perusing the PHB, DMG and Magic Item Compendium.
I assume the guidelines were set & understood and this isn't a brand new game that the OP is running with this complaining player.
Why are you playing victim as if I'm attacking you personally? I've done no such thing and have based everything I've said with what you have written in this thread. And what I have said has not been an attack in any way. There are much more important things in life to be insulted about than whatever it is you're getting from my posts. I'm not trying to insult you man, I'm just having a debate about magic item shops.
I haven't made any claims what so ever of throwing rules into my DM's face. So your not basing that on anything I posted in this thread. Saying that I do that is insulting because it makes me seem like an irrational jerk.
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Originally Posted by Oryan77
You've been throwing the DMG quote around this thread multiple times. So I'm not sure why you're now relating all of this to specifically being at the gaming table with friends.
I'm not talking about players at our tables, I'm speaking in general. My point is that you are using the DMG quote to prove your point as if that makes your way right & my way wrong. In general, players will use that quote in the DMG to tell DMs like myself that we are running our game world wrong or unfairly.
You're not my DM, the OP is not my DM, in fact no one in this thread is my DM. The fact that I quoted a rule, on a board for rules discussion, in no way shape or form means I throw rules in my DM's face.
And I'm not using a quote to prove anyone right or wrong. I'm using a quote to explain why I rule game I run the way I do. In fact several times in this thread I specifically pointed out that every DM should run their game the way they and their players have fun.
That's the exact opposite of saying that my way is the right way.
Oh and I'm sorry if any of your players read this thread and throw that quote into your face, though frankly if they were happy with the way you ran the game they wouldn't do that.
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Originally Posted by Oryan77
Maybe in a perfect world, players are that reasonable. But I've encountered plenty that are not like that. I mean, again, this thread wouldn't exist if what you are trying to say was how things really are:
I assume the guidelines were set & understood and this isn't a brand new game that the OP is running with this complaining player.
I can't account for how unreasonable players will react. In fact I don't live ina perfect world but I sure as hell don't game with unreasonable players. I haven't run across an unreasonable players in...
...
Like 94' when I was playing in games run by 11 year olds. That's the last time I can remember players being unreasonable over a game. Just because you've met plently of unreasonable players doesn't mean that I have.
And as for the player in the original post, this thread isn't really about that. DarkelvenSFi asked about what we think is best in regards to the sale of magic items. He didn't ask for me to determine whether or not his player was reasonable or unreasonable.
He asked about people's views on selling and buying magic items. Which is what I've been posting about. I've been discussing what and why I do what I do when it comes to magic items. I've never said that my way was the right way, or the only way. But I have explained and expanded my view as needed to make myself clearer.
Any I personally find this discussion with you tiring. Feel free to misrepresent my opinions in this thread but don't expect me to play along with you any longer.
Fair enough.. but I still see the 'retired adventures, guilds, curio shops, etc' combined as being similar to a 'magic shop' that shortens or makes gameplay easier. No need to make the characters act out going to each individual seller when they could just buy from the one easy source... or maybe see it as these NPCs in game having a place they congregate to sell their wares (not really suggesting the explanation fits every scenario, but .. yeh, I think you get the idea).
At the end of the day, I don't really see much difference in the reasonings/methods behind allowing players to buy their magic items; whether straight shop, specific NPCs, searching, making, hiring a creator, etc. At the end of the day, they're still performing the same fundamental action; passing over goods for gold.
How the DMs incorporate this into the game varies a lot. And I think many of us have fallen into a ditch trying to argue for one method over another for getting the same result. Like deciding whether you should pitch, throw, toss, hurl, or lob a ball somewhere; it does the same job regardless of the explanation.
Having seen a new post, I'll make this addition:
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I assume the guidelines were set & understood and this isn't a brand new game that the OP is running with this complaining player.
Players aren't always reasonable. When things don't go their way, whether via bad rolling, an ambiguous wording of the text (and incorrectly chosen feats), different opinions of game styles, etc.. players can be pretty irate (but mostly are great to play with).
Just simple things can cause big arguments; such as one player in my group thinking that demons are not (cannot be) inherently evil; there can be good demons (don't argue against this, I'm not trying to say they are good). Much the same as the same player insisting that all items should be available in the shops at all times; and that I should pass out more gold for the encounters (when I am doing it by the book; random treasure/gold generation).
It comes down to different expectations. One player might like to buy from a shop, while another might prefer a story based approach with rolling to find and acquire specific items. Unless everyone in the group has the same expectations (or no expectations; being new to the game), then there are going to be some disagreements. But hopefully nothing that cannot be sorted out. God forbid you have to kick someone out of the game.
And as for the player in the original post, this thread isn't really about that. DarkelvenSFi asked about what we think is best in regards to the sale of magic items. He didn't ask for me to determine whether or not his player was reasonable or unreasonable.
I think this sums things up nicely. We're here to talk about methods for the sale of magic items; and the limits of those methods.
I was trying to avoid a debate on whether the player was reasonable/unreasonable in the expectations (our views should be obvious by him asking and me posting here). So rather than bicker over expectations, I'd rather have people discuss methods of keeping players happy: what works for the other DMs and Players out there.
Much the same as the same player insisting that all items should be available in the shops at all times; and that I should pass out more gold for the encounters (when I am doing it by the book; random treasure/gold generation).
You didn't seem to be asking for advice about that really, but I'll note what I do in such situations: I say no. Not only do I say no, but I state what I know to be the player's problem, so that they are clear that I'm fine with them having a problem. In other words: "Sorry, it looks like you'll have to make do with something less than ideal."
It's not that I want the players to be unhappy, and nor do I want to actively undermine them. I put in a lot of hours to run a fun game. I don't think of it as a "me vs. them" thing; I'm a referee. But referees have to make judgment calls, and I like my players to know that I'm comfortable with that job. I know I won't always make the happy unbalanced supar fun pun pun decision, and yeah, I'm OK with the fallout from that.
Since my players have come onto En World to defend my "magic is limited" viewpoint when I got taken to task for it, I think they respect my decisions. They know I'm trying to have at least a token gesture toward a believable fantasy world. Of course, it may also be that they think I'm entirely nuts and they will stage a mutiny on Saturday.
Also, unrelated to your current comment but related to your OP, here is a link to a blog post about magic shops. I'm not sure it takes the conversation in a new direction. It's just another viewpoint.
At the end of the day, I don't really see much difference in the reasonings/methods behind allowing players to buy their magic items; whether straight shop, specific NPCs, searching, making, hiring a creator, etc. At the end of the day, they're still performing the same fundamental action; passing over goods for gold.
A part of the reason for me is so I can say "yes" or "no" without needing to explain myself. If I don't want to deal with a powergamer trying to powergame, then I can say no and blame the reasoning on the game world. If I want to surprise a player by giving it as treasure (for free), I would like the ability to say no so I can see the look on his face when he finds an even better item in some future loot. For me, magic item shops take away a lot of what I find fun as DM. Plus I will admit, I don't like players dictating how the world works. And "expecting" everything is a form of dictation as far as I see it.
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So rather than bicker over expectations, I'd rather have people discuss methods of keeping players happy: what works for the other DMs and Players out there.
Okey dokey. I figured the main conversation ran its course. I didn't mean to derail it if that's what I have done. I was just trying to spark some more thought by pointing out something related.
If I had a Magic Item Shop that sold a lot of magic items, there would have to be an agreement between the players and I that they would not abuse the privilege by stealing from it.
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Okey dokey. I figured the main conversation ran its course. I didn't mean to derail it if that's what I have done. I was just trying to spark some more thought by pointing out something related.
Sorry, I wasn't directing that comment any any particular person, but more as an effort to avoid hot tempers over differing opinions.
As for the shops providing items that power players shouldn't have.. I have in the past, not told of specific items that have shown up (in shops as well as monster hoards). So just because the system rolls something up, doesn't mean you have to take it/offer it.
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but I'll note what I do in such situations: I say no.
Exactly what I do. And I offer justifications for my choices as you do. But still, some people just aren't content; which is why I felt the need to get some feedback for how others handle it (maybe thinking I was out of line).
But in all, I've worked out that most people follow a similar system of availability (if not method of delivery) of magic items. Makes my efforts more worthwhile.
Most players just don't have any idea of how much time and effort DMs put into creating a campaign. They just have to rock up on the day, maybe having to do some research into their next feat choice or spell options. They're constantly focused on themselves. DMs are always focused on the players (or characters in the game). This focus is why I will typically side with a DMs choice on what's allowed; s/he's not adversely biased to get something other than the enjoyment of the game for him/herself and the friends.
Also, unrelated to your current comment but related to your OP, here is a link to a blog post about magic shops. I'm not sure it takes the conversation in a new direction. It's just another viewpoint.
I took a look at that blog, and made a post to it. For the sake of completeness (and the effort it took to write it), I'll post it here too:
I'm think you're making one fatal flaw with your 'no magic shops' spiel. But several others as well. Comparing the fantasy world population to the real world population to determine how many PCs there would be hurts my brain... you're using guesswork to boil down to an abstract number in an effort to prove a point of view; and something that has little bearing on that view.
The fantasy world isn't only filled with humans.. nor just elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, giants, dragons, fey, demons, undead, and monstrous humaniods (to name a few that could conceivably make magical items). The occupations of these people aren't restricted by class either; nor is their ability to make magical items solely restricted to those that take on an adventuring class.
So you're now seeing that there could be a larger number of magical items available. Truth is, most monsters have a magical item on their person or in their possession. Nearly all classes (whether PC or NPC) will have some form of magical item. Even the basic NPCs you'll find about town may have some heirloom of some small magic. Nobles and royalty will have some form of magic item in their possession.
So there's really a large number of items about.
The question now becomes; how do they get them if not from a shop. Sure you could say they are made; but that's just an extension of the shop idea; you're just delaying the item arriving in hand (you're having it delivered in 30 days, so to speak).
The concept of a magic item shop isn't so bizarre. The average wage for people in the realm seems to be between a half gold to maybe 3 or so gold pieces each day. The average magic item can sell for between 12,000 and 45,000. Half of this is considered profit. By this reasoning, the shopkeeper needs only sell one item a year to be ahead by far. Factor in armed guards, overhead costs on the establishment, etc... it's not entirely unrealistic for each city/town to have a magic shop that caters only for the occasional passing adventurer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galeros
If I had a Magic Item Shop that sold a lot of magic items, there would have to be an agreement between the players and I that they would not abuse the privilege by stealing from it.
I'd actually like the players in such a case to make the effort. All too often the bland middle-aged player doesn't even bother.
I guess I've seen too many quasi-heroes without the driving need of greed.
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In the games that I run, I use a method similar to one already described, where the player makes a Gather Information roll to ferret out someone willing to make / part with the item in question. Success (I don't recall how I determine the DC, I've got it written down somewhere, it is not a terribly difficult check) means that they can get the item (assuming that they pay for it) for the next session. Failure by less than 5 means that they can do a specific adventure for the item (or act as if they've failed by more than 5). Failure by less than 10 means that they can find someone to make the item for them (this becomes more and more onerous the higher the characters are in level). Failure by 10 or more means that they cannot find anyone currently willing or able to make / part with the item. They may try again after the next session.
One other thing that I do, though, is that all item request / shopping issues must take place outside of normal gameplay. If a player asks me if he can get an item for his character during the session, my answer is pretty much always the same, "send me an email before the next session."
During my next campaign, I'm considering doing away with the big six by incorporating plusses into the characters abilities as they gain levels (similarly to the way that Vow of Poverty works) and then making magic items a bit harder to get. Then again, I may not, since I have had very little issue with the way that I've been doing things.
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I'm not trying to insult you man, I'm just having a debate about magic item shops.
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