Items in shop; everything or a limited selection?

[DarkelvenSFi]

I run a large campaign with various shops in each city. Each shop has a selection of items based on the quality and type of the shop; items rolled randomly from a database.

One of the players is also in another group that.. for lack of a better word, criticized this approach, saying that each shop should have all items and allow players to choose what they wanted; after perusing the PHB, DMG and Magic Item Compendium.

My query is; what do you guys as players and DMs think is best? (keeping in mind my options may sound biased..) :P

1: All items available in every shop
2: Shops selling items based on the shop quality and type (a weapon shop selling only weapons, and only valuable ones if in a rich quarter of town - for example).
3: A variant of these; such as a shop for magical items, another for poisons/traps, another for mundane items, etc, but each selling everything in those categories (keeping in mind that a city may not have certain shops).
4: Something else...


What makes the game more enjoyable for you? Realism or accessibility.

[milo]

If a PC just walks into a shop and wants to know if an item is there I will give him a percentage chance of it being there. Normally I divide the cost of the item by 1000 and subtract that number from 100 and that is the percentage chance that it is there. That is the base percentage though(large town and large shop), I give modifiers based on shop size, town size, and things such as that. I make my shops somewhat specific. I split them into three main groups wand, scroll, potions, and staff shop. A weapons and armor shop. Then there is the wondrous item and rings. I will occasionally throw in specific shops such as a boot shop, a heavy armor shop, ring shop or any specific magic item type. I will give them a cut off such as 20k that they have anything in the book below that cost and will add a like amount to the % chance that they have anything that costs more than that.
There is always at least a 1% chance you will find any given item at any given shop though. If they want to research the location of a specific item they can find it fairly easily. I think it is a pretty lenient system, and once you get teleport you don't have any problem finding any item you want.

[aboyd]

To be honest, I've been playing for 25 years and I've never played in a game where "you can buy anything in town." Not ever. So a player advocating such a thing is very odd to me. I'm not suggesting my experience is the norm, however.

In fact, it goes against the core rules, now that I think about it. In the DMG, towns are given a limit of what they can sell, based upon the number of residents. I never follow those rules to the letter, but I do follow the spirit of the rules. My thinking is that very valuable items would be very rare, and any merchant that had such a thing would be in constant fear of assassination. So in my games, that stuff isn't easy to find and usually involves some back & forth before the players get the real item (this takes zero minutes in real life -- I just explained once that no merchant carried expensive items directly, and that was that).

One thing I do allow players to do as they explore my world is to gravitate toward towns that offer more. For example, if they are playing in Greyhawk city or Rel Astra, then there are going to be lots of shops and the odds of them finding whatever they need are pretty high. They have to do many Gather Information checks and spend days exploring the town, but they'll get what they want. The tradeoff is that they may be stuck with city adventures. It is only the smaller towns, the frontier towns, that have wilderness adventures, pirate adventures, and so on.

So yeah, I have very limited selection in small towns, and in larger towns the selection is great but still not perfect.

As an example of the imperfect selection in big cities, here is what happened in Rel Astra. My players wanted to get potions of bless weapon. That's a paladin-exclusive item. The problem? Rel Astra is ruled by an evil undead animus. And while many citizens are good or lawful, it's pretty rare to find people who are both. That kind of goodness just isn't fostered by the evil Lord Drax. What this means is that there is no paladin organization in town and thus, finding anything that is a paladin-exclusive is extremely difficult.

So yeah, I would never give players a free run of any magic item they wanted. However, I do allow my players to go where the loot is and try to make the best of it.

[DarkelvenSFi]

Thanks for the feedback.

There's a bit of 'baggage' behind the criticism.. hard to explain. But it's good to know that I'm not doing things that others find unusual.

I like the idea of specific items the players want having a chance to be available; based on cost. I'll be implementing that into my game.

[pawsplay]

The closest I've come is putting my high-level PCs in contact with a Mercane who is capable of acquiring a wide variety of gear. For the most part, I view selections as limited, at the very least by the DMG guidelines but also by common sense (there is no magic score in the world with a +1 and +2 version of each weapon in the PHB, to say nothing of flaming, silver, or bane variants). If the DMG guidelines suggest something is available, I try to make it available as a special commission if it makes sense.

[Aran Thule]

I would go for limited selection as well, consider how long it takes to make stuff and what it costs and who can make it.
Large cities would have adventurer shops stocking useful items but not many, there might be a network of traders that would communicate with each other and so know where items are located or they can ask a mages guild/temple/weaponsmith to make the item.

Saying that i remember something from forgotten realms which was like a mail order catalog. The company had outlet shops in most cities and if you wanted an item you placed an order and gave the money and the item would arrive the next day (assuming it was in stock)

[amethal]

It all depends on your play style.

I tend to hand wave most shopping, since it doesn't interest me. I use the town wealth guidelines from the DMG, but I might modify them a bit if the town is unusual - e.g. any magic item up to 3,000 gp, except that the local School of Wind Magic can supply elemental air related items up to 5,000 gp.

And if a player wants to buy a 3,100 gp item when I've just said the limit is 3,000 gp then generally I'll cut him some slack.

And once the PCs can teleport then, unless time is an issue, I assume they can pick up any item that I haven't banned outright.

On the other hand, if you like detailing your shops, and having a list of NPCs with the various craft magic items feats, then that should be fine as well.

Obviously, you have appear to be fair about it - players might object if all the anti-undead magic items mysteriously go out of stock just before the party are asked to investigate a mummy's tomb.

[Foxworthy]

I've always allowed players anything then want under the GP Limits of the town. I feel the players are penalized enough by selling magic items for half their value to turn around and tell them that the item they need isn't available feels like being a bit too hard. Plus I think the MIC suggest allowing the players to be able to buy what they want as well.

[Jack Simth]

Apparent, I double-clicked originally.

[Jack Simth]

To purchase:
Step 1: Make a gather information check.
For standard DMG Items: DC = 10 + Minimum Core level requirement for the item. No retry, although someone else in the party can ask around.
For items from other sources: Case-by-case only. They'll generally have a penalty to the Gather Information check. Some won't be available at all.

Step 2: Roll Diplomacy to bargain for costs:
40 or more = DMG list price
30-39 = DMG list price * 1.5
20-29 = DMG list price * 2
10-20 = DMG list price * 2.5
0-9 = He changed his mind, he's not selling.
Less than 0 = Not only is he not selling, he's decided to try and take you out subtly for tracking him down. How he does this will vary.
The Diplomacy roll has the same penalty as the Gather Info check for items from other sources.

To Commission an item's creation:
As above, but reduce all DC's by 5 (so finding someone who can Scribe a scroll of Teleport is Gather Info DC 14, rather than 19, and you only need a 35 on the Diplomacy roll to get DMG list price). Additionally, there's another option. If you get a 50 or better on the Diplomacy roll, you can get the item for materials cost.

Mundane stuff (including supplies for crafting) are available anywhere at list price regardless of charsima.

You can ask your buddy to find an item for you, if he's agreeable to do so. But then, he's the one rolling the check, and he's the one making the bargain. You can't be sure exactly what price he actually got for it.

By the way: It's usually a bad idea to dump Charisma in my games.

[Evilhalfling]

I separate magic items into common and rare.
+1 and +2 common weapons and popular armor.
minor wondrous items >3000 gp
potions & scrolls >3rd level
wands of Cure Light Wounds

Wondrous items, wands, scrolls arms and armor
can mostly be bought on commission if the caster level <9th

Rare Items:
Most Rings & Staves (or anything that needs a 12th lvl casters)
Bless weapon potions.
Items from the MIC - although some items may be commonly obtained from the originator or their guild.

[Ahnehnois]

I always let people just buy stuff out of the books. Life's too short to roleplay shopping trips (although there are no doubt exceptions).

[Herzog]

I don't do magic item shops. ever.
if they want a magic item, they have to either make it themselves, or hire someone to build one. (other than potions.)
if they want to sell a magic item, they have to find someone that wants it.

that said, if someone really wants a specific item, and it's not unreasonable, and they have the money to buy it, I might handwave it if they are in a large city.

most 'normal' shopping (and potions) is handwaved, as in, if the city is sufficiently large, the items will be available, unless circumstances dictate otherwise (ie: in a city run by a werewolf clan, wolfsbane, silversheen and silvered weapons will not be readily available)

only when the town is rather small do I consider certain items unavailable. Mostly, small towns will lack a local mastercrafter, so masterwork items will be unavailable. Swords and even armor may be available, but not in large quantities. If they really want something, it pays off to travel to a nearby city.

Concluding: I don't do specific shops, unless the player asks for it (specifically mentioning they look for an armor shop? then the shop will sell armor, but not weapons) but I also don't make everything available without question or limitations.

[Iku Rex]

In 3rd edition DnD "gp" is meant to work much the same as "xp".

When a character accumulates enough XP, the player generally gets to decide how the character improves. This does not mean that every city or wilderness village has hundreds of specialized adventurer schools catering to adventurers who want to "level up" as this or that class or PrC. Just because a DM allowed the player to pick any class or PrC does not mean that the character had the same choice.

Equipment should work in the same way. The character collects treasure (valued in gp in the rule system), the player gets to decide how it's spent. But just because the player gets to select any item does not mean that the character has the same choice. There are no gigantic warehouses filled with magic items. The character just happens to end up with the item the player wants.

[DarkelvenSFi]

Great answers!

I just run a system that generates items based on how much wealth the town is expected to have. This way the players get that added bit of realism when choosing where to go next. Large towns are also more dangerous, so they have to weigh up their options.

I was curious about the 'the magic item compendium says to allow all items', and it doesn't really. It say that if a player asks for a specific item, the answer should usually be yes, but it goes on to place a limit on availability according to the value of items compared to the city size (as per the DMG).

Which makes a fair bit of sense.

So after all this, I'll be including my shop list that randomly pulls out details, but also granting a roll-check for when players ask for specific items.

[Nonlethal Force]

Well, when I used magic items in games I largely hand-waved the shopping. If a player actually accumulated the gold and the town was big enough to have a shop/wizard/temple who could actually have the item - they found a way to buy the item. Item buying wasn't much of a place of enjoyment for the game, so we largely got rid of it and hand-waived th event.

However, if there are players around a table that enjoy it, then go for it. If I were playing in a system that actually still used equipment - I'd like to play in the system Jack Smith details above. That would appeal to me as a player. But in any case I don't think that any one table has a right to judge another table's gaming systems. So long as people at one table are enjoying what's being done, who cares whether you like what the next table over is doing? So my sympathies go out to the OP for having the table practices assaultedby another table. That's just bad taste.

As for my current games, we now use the Complete Gear system just published by Dreamscarred Press (I am the author). Totally eliminates all purchasing arguments from the table. Of course, it comes with the assumption that players can influence their own equipment and thus no longer need shops/temples/wizards to make their equipment for them. So, not for everyone. But it does sure save me time in equipping NPCs and the like. Oodles of time saved! For games that are just hand-waiving item purchases already, check it out: it'll add some unique flavor into a part of the game that is currently flat.

[Runestar]

I don't do magic item shops. ever.
if they want a magic item, they have to either make it themselves, or hire someone to build one. (other than potions.)
if they want to sell a magic item, they have to find someone that wants it.

I have never really understood what the difference between the 2 are.

What is the difference between you tracking down a wizard, paying him to craft a certain item for you, then waiting a certain amount of time for it before getting it, and simply strolling into a magic shop and purchasing that very item right off the shelves?

At the end of the day, they are still spending X amount of gold, and getting the magic items they want. The form may be different, but the essence pretty much remains the same. The shop is just there to streamline the process. I used to try and rp out the whole buying and selling process, but that was simply too much trouble and effort for too little results, so I just instituted magic shops as a catch-all to solve their buying/selling needs.

[Herzog]

What is the difference ...

It's a personal thing. To me, magic item shop reduces the magic items to commodities. And, by association, wizards to just another craftsman with a slighty different skillset.

I play in an Eberon campaign, and that setting actually is build around that principle. So I can accept that in that particular setting, there are magic item shops.

In my own campaigns, I like magic to be special. There are no wizards crafting huge amounts of magic items so the adventurers can pick and choose.

Of course, from a mechanical point of view, there is no difference (except maybe time required to obtain a specific item). Especially if you are handwaving the entire process.

[DarkelvenSFi]

Originally Posted by Nonlethal Force

But in any case I don't think that any one table has a right to judge another table's gaming systems. So long as people at one table are enjoying what's being done, who cares whether you like what the next table over is doing?

Thanks for that. Seems each time my group gets together now, there's some comment made about how the 'other side' does something different/better. Or how they are shocked that I allow something in my game.

I don't want to buy into these petty arguments and never attack the other table (just defend my game style), but the comments still make me wonder whether I am doing things that most would disapprove of (or are clearly against the rules).

So it's good to get some feedback from places like this. And it's given me some great ideas for how I can further improve things.

[Zanticor]

I used to be really hard on magic stuff. As in there are no stores that sell magic items and no one is interested in buying your expensive gear. Magic items are things you find in dungeons and gold is something to but in your bank account (with a tax deduction) for latter use in buying a keep. I became a bit less of an ass when they made powerfull friends. Those also did not have unlimmited supplies of magic junk lying around but the were willing to craft for them. Ofcorse the dungeon must go on so an item of 20000 takes 20 day of adventuring to be completed. Might be a bit harsh but finding nice things becomes so much more of a reward! I think I like the old rules better when 1 gp was also 1 xp and not a reason to start playing a different game: Shopping and Dragons.

Zanticor