Paladin dmg

[Sharkon]

Can you suggest me any way to improve my lvl12 paladin's charging damage who is mounted and has leap attack :
1d8(lance) + 10 (str + enchanment) + 36 (leap attack) +36 (charging smite) +5d6 (divine sacrifice) and all that is multiplayed by 4 (rhino's rush X2 spirited charge X3)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Rhino Hide Armor: +2d6, not that sexy
Impaling Weapon Property (MIC): 3/day as a swift action, next attack is a touch attack. Not more damage per say, but makes full PA with Leap Attack much easier.
Cavalier prestige class (CW): Your smite damage will stall, but gets to deal x4 charge damage a few times a day, and eventually x5.
Steadfast boots + Cometary Collision (MIC; PH2): boots let you set vs. charge for double damage with any weapon; feat lets you ready to intercept a charge with one of your own, simple enough. As with many possibilities, debatable if the mount needs the feat as well.
Elemental weapon crystals (MIC): For you, the least are actually a good deal, since that 1 energy damage x4 is better on average than a lesser crystal's 1d6. It's small, but it's something...
Leading the Charge stance (ToB:Bo9S): One level dip into Warblade or Crusader or two feats gives you ~ +1/2 HD to your charge damage, as well as all allies within 60 ft. Multiplies, of course. Dipping might be the better option, because...
Battle Leader's Charge maneuver (ToB:Bo9S): Maneuver adds +10 to your charge damage (multiplies) and you do not provoke AoO's for the movement. Can be had with a level 1 dip, buying it with feats is more of a pain in the ass. Dipping also means you can re-use it in the same combat.

I'm sure there's more, but it's late.

EDIT: I just assume people upgrade by that level, but I noticed you're still using a medium lance.
MIC, Strongarm Bracers. For a mere 6,000 gp, you can use a large lance, base damage 2d6 (on average, +2.5 damage before the x4 multiplier).

[akbearfoot]

The math doesn't sound right to me, but if I am wrong, why exactly do you need to be able to deal something like 3 or 4 times your hitpoints in damage in a single attack?

[StreamOfTheSky]

The same reason guys like to carry ridiculously oversized swords/guns?

Also, I realized, POUNCE would be a great boon to the OP's character. Sadly, Barbarian 1 is out due to alignment, and multiclassing deep into druid is silly.

At Pal 12, entering Warblade 1 for the aforementoned maneuver/stance goodness puts him at IL 7 (12/2 +1). If he could wait until Pal 16 (or any class combo totalling 16) and then enter Warblade, he would have IL 9, just enough to grab the level 5 Pouncing Charge maneuver, which does as you'd guess. Alternatively, just take a 2nd Warblade level later on to get it. It really might be worth it just for the maneuvers you'll want. You can take Leading the Charge as your first stance and use that to qualify for Battle Leader's Charge (both White Raven), leaving you 2 more maneuvers to choose. Pouncing Charge requires 2 other known Tiger Claw maneuvers, so unless you spend a feat for one of those, you do need 2 Warblade levels to get all 3 of those key abilities. Beyond that, White Raven Tactics is just nice to have...but you could buy a 3000 gp Crown of the WR to use it once/battle at that point anyway.

(And you would need Warblade if you wanted Pouncing Charge. Crusader only gets White Raven; Warblade gets both)

[irdeggman]

Power attack (1 to 2 attack/damage trade off) - works with 2 handed weapons (which a lance is classifed as) even if only used with one hand.


Bizarre logic but still RAW.

[Rhun]

I've never designed a PC that does massive damage like this during a charge...but I am now taking notes. Pretty impressive stuff.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, most of my advice comes from my experiences making a really obscenely powerful charging duo for a short-lived campaign (DM decided he couldn't handle the workload of prepping an adventure every week) My friend and I collaborated on it, making PCs that were best friends and fellow knights in their army, knowing each other for years. I played a Human Knight (with a dip in marshal -- cha to dex checks, including ride and initiative --, warblade, and had the campaign lasted, going full 10 in Cavalier). He played a Centaur Knight (also planning to go into cavalier, without the dips). Both using lances.

Suffice to say, we could vaporize anything we jointly attacked. Not only that, we covered each other. My ride checks saved his ass once a round, we could both use the knight's shield other ability if one of us got hit with focus fire, etc... While it lasted, it was great fun, and if you have a good friend (who doesn't mind being your mount or vice versa), I highly recommend trying it out in a game sometime.

Do note, mounted combat even on a regular horse doesn't work by RAW (you can't have two creatures act their entire rounds simultaneously, making mounted charges impossible). In the two PCs scenrio, it becomes even more important to have a DM willing to allow you to delay to the same initiative and act at the same time. Which reminds me...the best part was doing the double charge of doom, continuing on via ride-by attack, and then using WR Tactics on my buddy's centaur so he could get a new ride-by attack charge on the same guy or a different one.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Oh, Riding Boots! They are from MIC and cost 12,000 gp. If you have Spirited Charge, you deal x4 damage on a charge instead of x3.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by irdeggman

Power attack (1 to 2 attack/damage trade off) - works with 2 handed weapons (which a lance is classifed as) even if only used with one hand.


Bizarre logic but still RAW.

It may sound funny, considering all the things I've posted to pimp charge damage, but I really don't like ot use exploits like that. IMHO, it seems the intent that people need to use a weapon two-handed for the two-handed PA bonus, and I would find it distasteful to try and abuse that loophole. Of course, the only real difference is if you're buying an animated shield (+2 market price) or not, so I guess it's somewhat trivial. I wouldn't do that, though. (And not saying you would, I know you were just pointing it out).

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Do note, mounted combat even on a regular horse doesn't work by RAW (you can't have two creatures act their entire rounds simultaneously, making mounted charges impossible). In the two PCs scenrio, it becomes even more important to have a DM willing to allow you to delay to the same initiative and act at the same time. Which reminds me...the best part was doing the double charge of doom, continuing on via ride-by attack, and then using WR Tactics on my buddy's centaur so he could get a new ride-by attack charge on the same guy or a different one.

Except for the fact that mounted combat is an exception to the "normal rules".

Rules Compendium pgs 88-89

Fight as War Mount Attacks
If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your attacks normally.

Control Nonwar Mount in Battle
You can attempt to control a mount not trained for combat while riding it in battle. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.

Charging
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you recieve the bonus gained from the charge.

Moving
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can make only a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

You can take your own move actions normally, so that, for instance, you can load and fire a light crossbow during the round while your mount is moving.

So basically you are restricted by your mount's movement as to whether or not you can make a full attack - but you still get to take a full round's worth of actions if it is a war trained mount.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Originally Posted by irdeggman

Rules Compendium pgs 88-89

Fair enough. Still doesn't directly address how it affects initiative, but certainly implies an exception to the rules about acting simultaneously.

[Elethiomel]

Originally Posted by Sharkon

Can you suggest me any way to improve my lvl12 paladin's charging damage who is mounted and has leap attack :
1d8(lance) + 10 (str + enchanment) + 36 (leap attack) +36 (charging smite) +5d6 (divine sacrifice) and all that is multiplayed by 4 (rhino's rush X2 spirited charge X3)

Charging smite gives *twice*, not triple, the paladin's level to damage, so that's only 24.

Also on the rules for multiplying damage, the 5d6 do not multiply as they are bonus dice.

I designed a paladin like this, purely as a powergaming exercise (he happened to be level 12 too). You'll find Battle Blessing (feat, Complete Champion) to be excellent for popping up a couple of buff spells the round before you engage. One of these should be Find the Gap (Spell, Spell Compendium), as it makes your attacks ignore armor and natural armor (essentially making them touch atttacks). Awesome Smite (feat, Complete Champion) is also great because it allows your smites to ignore concealment. Then of course you have Divine Might which lets you add Charisma to damage, though AFAIK that has only been released in 3.0 products.

I stopped improving on my design when I found out he could one-shot all the demons and devils in the MM with 95% probability (more if he gets an item that lets him reroll ones).

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Fair enough. Still doesn't directly address how it affects initiative, but certainly implies an exception to the rules about acting simultaneously.

RC pg 89

combat while mounted

Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. The mount uses its action to move, and you move along with it.

Pretty much same text in PHB pg 157 under Mounted Combat

Your mount acts on your initiative count and as you direct it, You move its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Originally Posted by Elethiomel

Charging smite gives *twice*, not triple, the paladin's level to damage, so that's only 24.

Actually, it is x3. From PH2, page 53: "...you deal an extra 2 points of damage per paladin level to any evil creature that you hit (in addition to the normal bonus damage dealt by a smite)."

I also wish I had known that the variant lets you keep your smite on a miss, might have made me re-think being a paladin for said previous character.

[Darklone]

Originally Posted by Elethiomel

I stopped improving on my design when I found out he could one-shot all the demons and devils in the MM with 95% probability (more if he gets an item that lets him reroll ones).

Easier: Get that luck feat that lets you turn a rolled attack 1 into a natural 20.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Originally Posted by Darklone

Easier: Get that luck feat that lets you turn a rolled attack 1 into a natural 20.

Which can only be used once/day, regardless of how much luck you obtain via the feats. I don't know of any way to reroll 1's on attack rolls more than once or twice a day that you could reasonably build.

[Elethiomel]

I see I was mistaken on charging smite. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by Darklone

Easier: Get that luck feat that lets you turn a rolled attack 1 into a natural 20.

The build is already really really feat-intensive. Items are cheaper than feats for utility stuff such as this.

[Darklone]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Which can only be used once/day, regardless of how much luck you obtain via the feats. I don't know of any way to reroll 1's on attack rolls more than once or twice a day that you could reasonably build.

Get the prestige paladin with fighter levels and the luck domain... that luck feat and the luck feat that enhances the luck domain (e.g. 2 luck feats). That way you can turn one natural 1 into a 20 once per day and you can reroll two 1s.

More than three natural 1s per day with a one-hit-kill-anything build is unlikely.

[Elethiomel]

Originally Posted by Darklone

Get the prestige paladin with fighter levels and the luck domain... that luck feat and the luck feat that enhances the luck domain (e.g. 2 luck feats). That way you can turn one natural 1 into a 20 once per day and you can reroll two 1s.

More than three natural 1s per day with a one-hit-kill-anything build is unlikely.

The problem with that is that every lost paladin level loses you 3 (charging smite) x 5 (lance+riding boots+spirited charge+rhino's rush)=15 damage to your charge attack. All for the same benefit you can get from items.

Lucky (+1 equivalent weapon enchant) from MIC lets you reroll 1 failed attack roll a day.
Gloves of fortunate striking from MIC lets you reroll 1 failed attack roll a day. (2000 gold)
Mantle of second chances from MIC lets you reroll any 1 roll a day. (12000 gold)

So depending on how much you can spend, you can have a few rerolls per day. Mantle of second chances is a nice one for that last important attack roll or that important save, though it costs more than Gloves of Fortunate Striking + Amulet of Fortune Prevailing, which lets you reroll one of each (but stacks with them, so I guess it's fair).

[coyote6]

Originally Posted by Elethiomel

Then of course you have Divine Might which lets you add Charisma to damage, though AFAIK that has only been released in 3.0 products.

Complete Warrior, p. 106. Note that it changed from the DotF/3.0 version; it only lasts 1 round, but is a free action to use (DotF, IIRC, required the regular standard action to use a turn attempt, but lasted for [Cha bonus] rounds).

[Darklone]

Originally Posted by coyote6

Complete Warrior, p. 106. Note that it changed from the DotF/3.0 version; it only lasts 1 round, but is a free action to use (DotF, IIRC, required the regular standard action to use a turn attempt, but lasted for [Cha bonus] rounds).

It would make sense to allow it's use as a swift action... Otherwise paladins with Battle Blessing become horrible as long as they have turn attempts left