How good is Eldritch Disciple?

[Theroc]

Well, as the title states, I was wondering how good the Eldritch Disciple( from Complete Mage) is over simply alternating between Warlock and Cleric or going straight Warlock.

I'd heard/read somewhere that ED was one of the few Warlock PrC's available worth going into, and was wondering how accurate that statement was.

[irdeggman]

IMO starting with favored soul instead is a better mix due to the common prime ability (Cha) for both. You enter a tad later but they seem to mix better IMO.

[Ahnehnois]

It's as good or better than the mystic theurge-y classes. The combination of a class that does everything but direct damage spells and a class with a direct at-will damaging spell is quite versatile.

As with all the other such classes, however, it's a long wait to get to the good stuff.

[Theroc]

Well, IR, the reason I was wondering if Favoured Soul would be a good idea is spell potency is still determined by wisdom anyway... but it is something to look into.

As far as taking awhile to enter, the game I'm thinking of doing this in(in the immediate future) is gestalt...

My idea for this character was to allow him to buff& heal with the spells, and use his eldritch Blast for damage(and maybe healing if I can swing the healing blast).

I suppose I should have pitched the whole concept initially, but I more just wanted the general effectiveness of the PrC as I'd heard negatives about Warlock oriented PrC's... besides some hellfire one.

[Shin Okada]

Eldritch Disciple class itself is very fun to play and is strong. But I doubt if it is a good idea for a half-vampire. ED (or any other dual-caster classes) goes behind a few levels to get higher level spells already. LA+2 from Half-Vampire template will make it worse.

By the way, you can't be a Favored Soul/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple. Because you need to have turning/rebuke undead class feature to become an Eldritch Disciple.

[Sharkon]

I want to ask something about the practised spellcaster feat. If you go Cleric/Warlock and you take that feat for the cleric class it is ok. But can you take it for the warlock class ? so that it gives him higher eldritch blast damage and higher invocation caster lvl...

[Shin Okada]

Originally Posted by Sharkon

I want to ask something about the practised spellcaster feat. If you go Cleric/Warlock and you take that feat for the cleric class it is ok. But can you take it for the warlock class ? so that it gives him higher eldritch blast damage and higher invocation caster lvl...

No. Because Warlock is not a spellcasting class.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Originally Posted by Shin Okada

No. Because Warlock is not a spellcasting class.

But ask your DM. I recall a lot of people on this forum would allow it.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

But ask your DM. I recall a lot of people on this forum would allow it.

Even more would have created a parallel feat that would essentially accomplish the same thing.

But per RAW it does not work.

[Thanee]

Originally Posted by Theroc

As far as taking awhile to enter, the game I'm thinking of doing this in(in the immediate future) is gestalt...

Then you should forget about the class, it is highly recommended to ban such prestige classes in combination with the gestalt rules.

Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

Bye
Thanee

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Thanee

Then you should forget about the class, it is highly recommended to ban such prestige classes in combination with the gestalt rules.

Bye
Thanee

I'll double check with my DM to see if he'll allow the class or not.

[Thanee]

The problem is, that you essentially become a three-class-character then, not just two classes.

i.e. (example with Mystic Theurge, because it is quite straightforward)

1st Wizard | Cleric
2nd Wizard | Cleric
3rd Wizard | Cleric
4th Mystic Theurge | Fighter
5th Mystic Theurge | Fighter
6th Mystic Theurge | Fighter
...

So, up until 13th level, you have FULL wizard *and* cleric spellcasting, plus almost full BAB, tons of Fighter feats and so on, and so on, and so on.

That is certainly not the intention.


Another common problem is Level Adjustment. Some DMs allow LA to take up one side of the Gestalt, thereby effectively making a character, that is TWICE its actual character level (up to an increase equal to the LA). That's the same as to allow full stacking of Wizard | Wizard (i.e. +2 caster levels each level and so on; which is obviously not allowed, but just as a comparison of the power level).

That is certainly not the intention either.

Bye
Thanee

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Thanee

The problem is, that you essentially become a three-class-character then, not just two classes.

i.e. (example with Mystic Theurge, because it is quite straightforward)

1st Wizard | Cleric
2nd Wizard | Cleric
3rd Wizard | Cleric
4th Mystic Theurge | Fighter
5th Mystic Theurge | Fighter
6th Mystic Theurge | Fighter
...

So, up until 13th level, you have FULL wizard *and* cleric spellcasting, plus almost full BAB, tons of Fighter feats and so on, and so on, and so on.

That is certainly not the intention.


Another common problem is Level Adjustment. Some DMs allow LA to take up one side of the Gestalt, thereby effectively making a character, that is TWICE its actual character level (up to an increase equal to the LA). That's the same as to allow full stacking of Wizard | Wizard (i.e. +2 caster levels each level and so on; which is obviously not allowed, but just as a comparison of the power level).

That is certainly not the intention either.

Bye
Thanee

Well, the DM is allowing the LA to take up one side of the gestalt, and I'd need to doublecheck to be certain, but I think he's allowing things such as
Scout/Ranger with Swift Stalker (Which basically makes each ranger level count as a scout level and each scout level count as a ranger level for certain class features)...

So, I figured I'd ask to see if this would be allowed.

Edit:
Here was what build I had been looking at
Drow/Drow (The LA, obviously)
Cleric/Draconic
Cleric/Warlock
Cleric/Warlock
Eldritch Disciple/Warlock

Obviously it seems my DM is deviating from RAW, which isn't necessarily a problem for me, though it obviously will result in a much higher powered campaign, given the obvious boost such things are. I haven't gone into much detail as to the exact specifics of my build yet, as I wasn't sure whether this would work or not.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Well, the DM is allowing the LA to take up one side of the gestalt, and I'd need to doublecheck to be certain, but I think he's allowing things such as
Scout/Ranger with Swift Stalker (Which basically makes each ranger level count as a scout level and each scout level count as a ranger level for certain class features)...

So, I figured I'd ask to see if this would be allowed.

Edit:
Here was what build I had been looking at
Drow/Drow (The LA, obviously)

That is taking up both sides of the gestalt and not 1 side. IMO it it like taking fighter/fighter and saying you get both the 1st and 2nd level fighter feats at the same time.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by irdeggman

That is taking up both sides of the gestalt and not 1 side. IMO it it like taking fighter/fighter and saying you get both the 1st and 2nd level fighter feats at the same time.

As I said, I'm not very familiar with the gestalt, I assumed if it was allowed to take 1 side, I could simply place both levels on either side. Apparently that doesn't work, but in the end, the result is the same as-

Warlock/Drow
Cleric/Drow
Warlock/Draconic
Warlock/Cleric
Warlock/Cleric

Sorry about the confusion, as I said, I really am kinda stumbling blindly, though I learn fastest making mistakes and being corrected.

DM is allowing Eldritch Disciple, by the way. Not sure whether it takes one side or both, though.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by Theroc

DM is allowing Eldritch Disciple, by the way. Not sure whether it takes one side or both, though.

You will have to ask him since by allowing the presitge class at all he has deviated from the RAW (well as much as anything in UA is actually RAW - since everything there is "optional" in the first place).

Normally you can combine a prestige class and a standard class but not 2 prestige classes for any gestalt level.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by irdeggman

You will have to ask him since by allowing the presitge class at all he has deviated from the RAW (well as much as anything in UA is actually RAW - since everything there is "optional" in the first place).

Normally you can combine a prestige class and a standard class but not 2 prestige classes for any gestalt level.

Not sure I follow. Eldritch Disciple is 1 prestige class.

If I wanted ED, would it be something like, "Eldritch Disciple/Cleric" for a level? Or would it be "Eldritch Disciple"?

[StreamOfTheSky]

LA is tricky in gestalt. I definitely think it's kind of a joke to just take up one side while gaining a HD and class features on the other. But, it's also not that fair to have it take up both sides. In gestalt, each level is worth significantly more than the LA system assumes. I dunno. For my gestalt game, I used point buy and just gave lower point buys for creatures with LA. I might have been too harsh with the point penalties -- no one's playing an LA race anymore. Then again, my group almost never goes for them normally (they like getting their class features, I guess).

Oh, and I agree with the majority. If your DM allows it, great for you. But I would never allow dual progression prestige classes in gestalt. Not only is it over-powered...it's unnecessary. In a normal game you'd need them to play a viable cleric/warlock. In gestalt...you can just play a cleric//warlock!

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Oh, and I agree with the majority. If your DM allows it, great for you. But I would never allow dual progression prestige classes in gestalt. Not only is it over-powered...it's unnecessary. In a normal game you'd need them to play a viable cleric/warlock. In gestalt...you can just play a cleric//warlock!

The game seems very powerheavy... but I honestly was half-expecting him to say no to it... as it would effectively allow me to get a double-bonus to Cleric spellcasting or to Warlock Invocations each level, depending which I take of the other class.

Well, the reason I wanted ED(since I realized with gestalt I could just go Warlock/Cleric) was for the "Gifts of the Divine Patron" which has a few pretty nifty features.

[Thanee]

Originally Posted by Theroc

The game seems very powerheavy... but I honestly was half-expecting him to say no to it... as it would effectively allow me to get a double-bonus to Cleric spellcasting or to Warlock Invocations each level, depending which I take of the other class.

No, you can never gain the same thing twice in one level (well, unless your DM significally changes the gestalt rules).

If you have the following...

1st Cleric|Warlock
2nd Cleric|Warlock
3rd Cleric|Warlock
4th Cleric|Eldritch Disciple

At 4th level you only gain +1 to Cleric caster level, +1 level of Cleric spellcasting, etc. The ONLY thing you gain from the Cleric side would be an increase in your Turn Undead ability and possibly a higher bonus from a Domain ability if it is tied to Cleric level.

It's the same as with BAB, hp, skills, ... you only gain the better of the two sides, not both.

Bye
Thanee