I have a group that encountered 3 shadows. They turned 2 and gave a beat-down to the other one.
Then an hour later after exploring other rooms, they came back, saw the two turned shadows had returned, and gave them a beat-down.
How do I award XP? A combat with 3 and a combat with 2? A combat with 1 and a combat with 2? Something else?
EDIT: another question. I have a PC that was lowered into a cave. The PC explores the cave and ends up fighting off a bat swarm. He wins, and the swarm disperses out into the night. Meanwhile, unbeknown to him, the rest of the team waiting saw a few individual bats (no longer any CR) flying away from the cave, and they magic missiled as many as they could. Does the XP go to the team?
I have a group that encountered 3 shadows. They turned 2 and gave a beat-down to the other one.
Then an hour later after exploring other rooms, they came back, saw the two turned shadows had returned, and gave them a beat-down.
How do I award XP? A combat with 3 and a combat with 2? A combat with 1 and a combat with 2? Something else?
What was the goal?
You get Exp for overcoming goals.
Most people over look that fact and assume exp comes from combat only.
So if the goal was defeat the shadows: they only did that once.
If the goal was stop shadows from attacking them then 1.5 XP. once for first time and 1/2 for second battle for those two.
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The xp for the swarm encounter should have been awarded to the whole group, even without the magic missileing....If they were close enough to see some of the bats as they flew away then they were close enough to have helped the person down in the cave if he had been unlucky and started screaming for help. Or, they could have just as easily been the ones who were attacked. They participated in the 'cave exploration' by enabling the explorer to go down in the first place.
Do you often give out single PC xp awards? The fact that they were trying desperately to kill critters that they presumeably knew were no threat suggests something along those lines. I only say 'desperately' because they were using resources to kill essentially harmless stuff while still in a dangerous place. Meaning they probably felt like their xp share was already in jeopardy and were thus grasping at straws so they could get a share too.
I prefer non-exp systems, where the DM/players mutually decide when the PCs level up, that way nobody falls behind and the game can progress according to the DMs or players needs, and there is never a hold up while 1 or 2 people get that last bit to level etc... Barring that sort of a system I recommend splitting almost all xp among the group. Single XP awards encourage greedy role playing, players try to hog the DMs time to get more of the chances for solo exp. Also, it leaves the players who tend to be more shy out in the cold because they are less likely to speak up and fight for air time. Group A goes into a dungeon....all XP from the dungeon gets split among everyone in Group A as long as they are alive and 'in the dungeon'.
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I would give full xp for the first encounter (3 shadows overcome). How they were overcome is unimportant; even sneaking past them would call for full xp.
The second time they met was a different encounter and should also warrant full xp (this time for only 2 shadows, though).
It is important to note that D&D does not specify that encountered monsters have to be killed in order to receive xp; they only need to be overcome in whatever way the party can come up with within the limits of the encounter. Sometimes, just talking to a creature is the easiest way to overcome it; most times it requires something more than that.
I also do this for encounters with major villains that get away to fight the party again later. IMHO just because a party met someone once should not make that person worth less xp later unless his powers/abilities/spells/magic items/etc. have been severely expended enough to lower his EL.
For the swarm example, I agree with akbearfoot.
Ciao,
Dave
__________________ My sig was too long, so here it is; short form: Duh!
Let's imagine I fight a goblin called Bob and think I've killed him. I move on into the dungeon.
Suddenly I'm attacked by Bob, who was actually stable on -9 hit points and got healed by their shaman. Now he's leaping at me from behind, at full health and with full equipment.
That's one scenario. What if I'd actually killed Bob and instead I was attacked by his identical twin brother Cob who uses the same character sheet.
Lets imagine both scenarios play out identically with the same stats, same rolls, same actions etc.
The players wouldn't even be able to tell which scenario was which.
As far as I'm concerned if they face a CR 1 foe and win, then they get the CR 1 experience. The name of the creature with the CR 1 is irrelevant.
I would give full xp for the first encounter (3 shadows overcome). How they were overcome is unimportant; even sneaking past them would call for full xp.
The second time they met was a different encounter and should also warrant full xp (this time for only 2 shadows, though).
I wouldn't give double experience for the shadows. The party used a power to deter the undead for at least 10 rounds. You delayed the problem, not over came it because they returned at a later time. Turn Undead & other fear-like affects just clears the playing field so that you can focus on a smaller number of guys.
If you give double XP as well, look out for abuse. Your party may start to just turn everything then expect to get secondary XP when the enemies return later on in the day.
I wouldn't give double experience for the shadows. The party used a power to deter the undead for at least 10 rounds. You delayed the problem, not over came it because they returned at a later time. Turn Undead & other fear-like affects just clears the playing field so that you can focus on a smaller number of guys.
If you give double XP as well, look out for abuse. Your party may start to just turn everything then expect to get secondary XP when the enemies return later on in the day.
In our experience, the problem isn't the double XP.
It's that if you don't track down and kill the turned undead immediately (ie: in that same encounter), they tend to be waiting for you when you come back, and in the case of intelligent undead, they will be looking for a way to trap you based on what they learned in the first encounter.
One of the more terrifying games we had was after turning a few wraiths early in the dungeon. After that they weren't just out to get us, they were actively getting the /other/ dungeon denizens to get us.
I had something like this come up in one of my games and my players howled about how unfair I was (in a friendly and good-natured way) but ultimately did just fine. They were exploring a ruined castle and were attacked by a harpoon spider. Things were not going well and one of the PCs used a last ditch measure by employing Dark Speech to "charm" the spider. Thus, they defeated the spider and were able to pass through the room. I gave them half-xp; they howled; I smiled.
Later they had to leave the castle... they decided to leave the same way they entered, encountered the spider a second time, and killed it. They got full xp.
Thus, they received 1.5 times the xp they normally would for a single creature. The (good-natured) complaining stopped.
By the book, they probably should have received full xp for both encounters, but then you create a loop-hole whereby the party could just keep coming back, charming the spider, go through the room, come back again, and so on. I don't like loop-holes.
By the book, they probably should have received full xp for both encounters, but then you create a loop-hole whereby the party could just keep coming back, charming the spider, go through the room, come back again, and so on. I don't like loop-holes.
The book really gives you your own discretion for that one. DMG page 37:
"You must decide when a challenge has been overcome. Usually this is simple to do. Did the PCs defeat the enemy in battle? Then they met the challenge and earned experience points. Other times, it can be trickier. Suppose the PCs sneak past the sleeping minotaur to get into the magical vault - did they overcome the minotaur encounter? If their goal was to get into the vault and the minotaur was just a guardian, then the answer is probably yes. It's up to you to make such judgements."
I'd probably give them double myself. But I can understand why you didn't.
By the book, they probably should have received full xp for both encounters, but then you create a loop-hole whereby the party could just keep coming back, charming the spider, go through the room, come back again, and so on. I don't like loop-holes.
I would have rewarded them with full XP both times (if the spider had full hit points the second time at least).
But I wouldn't have created a loop-hole. In the underdark campaign I played in we had to get across a guarded chasm using an ettin-controlled bridge. We had to do this pretty often later in the campaign. We got XP the first time we managed to defeat the ettins and get by, and the second time. The third time we used the same spell and bribe as the second time and got no XP - we didn't defeat the problem this time, we were still coasting by on the last time we had, just as if we had killed the boss Ettin. Same thing for the next dozen crossings. Then the boss Ettin got fed up with us and started extorting more money so we finally dealt with him in a more... final... fashion. And got XP for it.
In the opinion of our players and DM, using the same method to defeat the same critter over and over again isn't a new victory every time, it's the same thing as killing the critter once and wandering past every time (except it takes more resources in our case, as we went through there just under a score of times in that campaign).
At Nebten and Snowheart: What about the party that turns the shadows then leaves the dungeon? No xp? Shadows were overcome, the fact that they weren't destroyed is more a matter of character level (for the turning) rather than anything else. Turning can destroy undead. If some are destroyed and some are turned; do you only give xp for those destroyed? The wimps give xp; but the challenges don't? If the undead are never met again; and turning gives no xp; then IMHO the party would be cheated. What other class ability that affects monsters when used successfully doesn't contribute to an xp award, but instead reduces it?
At Dyson Logos: I like that ruling: same method vs. same creature equals no xp. The party has stopped thinking and is using the tried and true method instead of coming up with a different solution. It would have been easier on the party to find a final solution earlier.
Ciao,
Dave
__________________ My sig was too long, so here it is; short form: Duh!
At Nebten and Snowheart: What about the party that turns the shadows then leaves the dungeon? No xp? Shadows were overcome, the fact that they weren't destroyed is more a matter of character level (for the turning) rather than anything else. Turning can destroy undead. If some are destroyed and some are turned; do you only give xp for those destroyed? The wimps give xp; but the challenges don't? If the undead are never met again; and turning gives no xp; then IMHO the party would be cheated. What other class ability that affects monsters when used successfully doesn't contribute to an xp award, but instead reduces it?
It's a judgment call. I knew my players were capable of killing the harpoon spider, not just charming or "turning" it, and I also knew it was going to come back to exactly the same place and, while they had two other options to exit, they would likely be coming back the same way.
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but a person might think my decision was harsh or unfair. Once events finished playing out, as I was fairly certain they would, the players got a good chunk of experience and they were happy. I think people get this sense of entitlement as to experience for every encounter which, IMO, is bunk. If you give your players a fun game and ultimately wind up rewarding them at a rate appropriate for their level, then it all works.
Whoa, I am not saying that what you do in your campaign is wrong. Far from it. I was just pointing out that the "loop hole" for mega xp closed by negating xp for "partially" defeated monsters is just as bad as the "loop hole" itself. Every encounter should be judged on its personal merits as to whether the challenge was overcome. In such judgements, the DM is the final arbiter. I would have no problem with a DM that did it how you did it in your campaign. I would have a problem with a DM that refused any xp for the first encounter, otherwise; charm, fear, and turning abilities would suck to use.
"Ya know, Fred, if ya hadn't scared off those bugbears, I woudda been 5th level by now."
Ciao,
Dave
__________________ My sig was too long, so here it is; short form: Duh!
At Nebten and Snowheart: What about the party that turns the shadows then leaves the dungeon? No xp? Shadows were overcome, the fact that they weren't destroyed is more a matter of character level (for the turning) rather than anything else. Turning can destroy undead. If some are destroyed and some are turned; do you only give xp for those destroyed? The wimps give xp; but the challenges don't? If the undead are never met again; and turning gives no xp; then IMHO the party would be cheated. What other class ability that affects monsters when used successfully doesn't contribute to an xp award, but instead reduces it?
If you turned them and they didn't return, then you wouldn't have to fight them a second time. Therefore worrying about giving XP for the second time the party fights this enemy is moot. If the problem/enemy is overcome and is no longer a threat to the party, then you reward XP. If the DM plans on reusing the turned/feared/charmed enemy again, I recommend the party shouldn't be able to double dip for XP for this challenge.
Personally, I'd just give the XP twice. I _really_ don't think it's going to make _that_ much of a difference in the greater scheme of things.
Then again I admit to being a fan of simply saying, "Characters level after 13 or 14 Encounters", and skip the whole micro-management of XP in the first place.
As for the "loophole" of people turning undead and thus "winning" the encounter and then going back and killing stuff, or even going back and repeatedly turning undead and just farming the XP.... I personally think it's kinda ridiculous and just desperately searching for a rule-lawyer exception. If you've got a group that can do this, then clearly they're of sufficient strength that the Encounter is of a minimal XP value in the first place. So they'd be getting little to no XP.
What about the recurring villains? Do they only give XP once when finally defeated?
The rogue escaped during the battle; does the fact that he sneak-attacked the tank just before a big battle not count at all?
The rogue again escaped this time using a teleport ring; does the fact that the mage is unconscious and near death not count for party XP until you catch that guy?
The rogue had turned the whole town against the party, so when they show up, not only are they mistrusted, but also they are thrown in jail. No XP.
The rogue turned to smoke and just floated away; the party had no means to stop him in that form. The sickly green form of the poisoned cleric is mute testimony that the party experienced something, yet the rogue got away so no XP.
Disguised as a sheep herder, the rogue sent the party down the wrong path toward extra danger and complications to their lives. No one pierced his disguise, so no XP for that encounter and the party doesn't even know to blame the rogue.
The mage finally got the drop on the rogue and suggestioned him. Oops, no XP, he wasn't defeated; after confessing to many crimes, the rogue was imprisoned. Seems he was ready for this, he escaped almost immediately. No XP.
etc.
If recurring monsters do not get XP but once; then recurring villains (which can be monsters) should also only get XP once. I know a quite a few players that will no longer use fear, charm, or turning abilities in such a campaign. Such choices are detrimental to certain abilities. But your campaign is your campaign. Do as you wish.
"I'll memorize snare instead of dominate animal because the last time I used it to stop a bear from attacking us; I got no XP."
Ciao,
Dave
__________________ My sig was too long, so here it is; short form: Duh!
What about the recurring villains? Do they only give XP once when finally defeated?
The rogue escaped during the battle; does the fact that he sneak-attacked the tank just before a big battle not count at all?
The rogue again escaped this time using a teleport ring; does the fact that the mage is unconscious and near death not count for party XP until you catch that guy?
The rogue had turned the whole town against the party, so when they show up, not only are they mistrusted, but also they are thrown in jail. No XP.
The rogue turned to smoke and just floated away; the party had no means to stop him in that form. The sickly green form of the poisoned cleric is mute testimony that the party experienced something, yet the rogue got away so no XP.
Disguised as a sheep herder, the rogue sent the party down the wrong path toward extra danger and complications to their lives. No one pierced his disguise, so no XP for that encounter and the party doesn't even know to blame the rogue.
The mage finally got the drop on the rogue and suggestioned him. Oops, no XP, he wasn't defeated; after confessing to many crimes, the rogue was imprisoned. Seems he was ready for this, he escaped almost immediately. No XP.
My take would be if the rogue was running away in fear of it's life, you have defeated it and earn XP. If it runs several times, you have to decide what is overcoming the rogue: defeating it's plans or leaving it a hunk of flesh on the floor?
If the rogue's goal is to annoy with hit and run tactics, no XP. It's leaving is not any of your doing after all
Unless the disguise is pierced I agree no XP.
If the reason for the town's actions are not discovered no XP (and probably not after either), but circumstances might warrant some XP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricDragon
I know a quite a few players that will no longer use fear, charm, or turning abilities in such a campaign. Such choices are detrimental to certain abilities. But your campaign is your campaign. Do as you wish.
"I'll memorize snare instead of dominate animal because the last time I used it to stop a bear from attacking us; I got no XP."
I wouldn't rule no XP for dominate animal, I actually would want nature types (rangers, druids, clerics with nature deities/domains) to decide whether they prefer to minimise their impact on the local ecology (kill only if forced to) or if they believe that only the strongest would survive in any fight.
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Scrag: I stopped hitting him.
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Defeat is determined by party goals/monster goals not just when killed. Sneaking past an encounter can warrant full xp if the goal is elsewhere. Turning undead can warrant full xp if the goal is something other than "clean out all the undead in the dungeon".
If the party's goal is to get information out of the rogue; then fireballing him to death might warrant no xp (speak with dead could alleviate this with the right questions). But in some cases, killing can foil the party's goals; and thus no xp even though they toasted the monsters.
Murder is not the only way to get xp, unless the whole campaign is hack-n-slash. Talking, turning, charming, beguiling, dominating, intimidating, bluffing, and fearing are all perfectly acceptable ways of "defeating" a monster as long as the goal is not opposed.
Ciao,
Dave
__________________ My sig was too long, so here it is; short form: Duh!
The way I do it is that typically the party cannot earn more than the normal amount of XP for the same encounter twice (or more). If the enemy flees or withdraws in good order and I plan on bringing them back later, I give half XP for the first encounter (or full XP and none later on).
Generally if the party whipped and routed the enemy, I treat it as successfully defeating the encounter and give them full XP.
But if the enemy retreated in good order (e.g., today the party used a wall of stone spell to prevent a dragon from getting at them, so the dragon withdrew... for now...), I usually only give half XP (or possibly none if they got away scot-free).
The only times I ever give more XP than would have been earned by a single encounter is if the enemy retreats/flees and comes back repeatedly to be a thorn in the party's side. At some point that's worth more than 100% of the EL for that encounter.
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