Pimp my lich

[SelcSilverhand]

Lots of good ideas here.
Something else you might look at is Corpse Crafter and Destructive Retribution from Libris Mortis. Any undead you create explode for negative energy damage when killed. If you animate enough undead you've got a nice surprise when the melee types start using great cleave or the casters do some nuking.
You can either send them in as bombs to soften them up or have them fight at your side providing some free healing as they get destroyed. You could have some archer minions purposefully destroying your undead around you as you need healing.

I just ran a lich encounter for my group (around 13th level). He opened up with a quickened ray of exhaustion (for the barbarian to prevent him from raging) then waves of fatigue for the rest of the melee. Next round he used a quickened blindness/deafness on the wizard and stinking cloud. He then ran around with greater invisibility doing finger of death and paralyzing attacks. Luckily the druid managed to hit him with faerie fire and the few remaining mobile people started taking him down.

My favorite tactics still involve using a quickened silence + solid fog + cloudkill then wall of force in front and behind (if in a corridor). If you can get some incorporeal minions such as wraiths, shadows, or ghosts that can move around in the cloud they can keep the casters busy so they don't have a chance to get off a dispel magic (If they happen to have a silent one prepared or a rod).

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by SelcSilverhand

Lots of good ideas here.
Something else you might look at is Corpse Crafter and Destructive Retribution from Libris Mortis. Any undead you create explode for negative energy damage when killed. If you animate enough undead you've got a nice surprise when the melee types start using great cleave or the casters do some nuking.
You can either send them in as bombs to soften them up or have them fight at your side providing some free healing as they get destroyed. You could have some archer minions purposefully destroying your undead around you as you need healing.

I just ran a lich encounter for my group (around 13th level). He opened up with a quickened ray of exhaustion (for the barbarian to prevent him from raging) then waves of fatigue for the rest of the melee. Next round he used a quickened blindness/deafness on the wizard and stinking cloud. He then ran around with greater invisibility doing finger of death and paralyzing attacks. Luckily the druid managed to hit him with faerie fire and the few remaining mobile people started taking him down.

My favorite tactics still involve using a quickened silence + solid fog + cloudkill then wall of force in front and behind (if in a corridor). If you can get some incorporeal minions such as wraiths, shadows, or ghosts that can move around in the cloud they can keep the casters busy so they don't have a chance to get off a dispel magic (If they happen to have a silent one prepared or a rod).

Thanks - some excellent ideas here. Nice encounter with the greater invisibility & finger of death.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

how did your lich session turn out, by the way?

My target is for the lich (or the balor) to make an appearance at next Saturday's session.

If I do go with the balor-gating idea, that battle will likely take up the last half of the session, meaning the lich won't be there until the following Saturday. Though, I suppose the lich could walk in at the close of the session after the balor explodes and then mention something about being angry that his pet was destroyed by you interlopers.

And, then call it a day gaming-wise.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by green slime

Undead minions??! Last Lich in a game I ran was a Druid conjurer specialist, summoning up demonic vegetation. Who knew spinach & broccoli with templates would freak out players

the location is more conducive to undead minions than plants, but that is a good thought for a future lich.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Well, the Dread Necromancer becomes a Lich for essentially free at level 20.

It's from the book Heroes of Horror.

I'm not sure what precisely you're asking, so sorry if my suggestion makes no sense.

Looks pretty good - a sorcerer type that becomes a lich. However, the spell list seems a bit limited to me, and spontaneous casters can't quicken spells unless they have an item that gives them that ability.

Responding now because I forgot I had Heros of Horror and I looked it up when I found it.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Bungus

Looks pretty good - a sorcerer type that becomes a lich. However, the spell list seems a bit limited to me, and spontaneous casters can't quicken spells unless they have an item that gives them that ability.

Responding now because I forgot I had Heros of Horror and I looked it up when I found it.

Can't a Dread Necromancer use Divine Metamagic to use his rebuke attempts for that?

I'm not a casting expert, so if I misunderstood something with the magic, don't mind me.

I especially can't look it up since a virus killed all my PDFs.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Can't a Dread Necromancer use Divine Metamagic to use his rebuke attempts for that?

I'm not a casting expert, so if I misunderstood something with the magic, don't mind me.

I especially can't look it up since a virus killed all my PDFs.

I could be wrong on that - so, I will look it up. But, I don't recall the divine metamagic feats allowing quickening of spells? I was thinking of the Divine feats in PHB2, but there could be others?

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Bungus

I could be wrong on that - so, I will look it up. But, I don't recall the divine metamagic feats allowing quickening of spells? I was thinking of the Divine feats in PHB2, but there could be others?

I believe the quicken was in COmplete Divine... but I may have imagined it.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by Theroc

I believe the quicken was in COmplete Divine... but I may have imagined it.

Yes - looked it up and you can give up a turn attempt to apply 1 level of metamagic to a spell, or 4 turn attempts to apply 4 levels (to quicken)

[Elethiomel]

Originally Posted by Bungus

Yes - looked it up and you can give up a turn attempt to apply 1 level of metamagic to a spell, or 4 turn attempts to apply 4 levels (to quicken)

I'm pretty certain it's level of metamagic +1, so 5 to quicken.

[Runestar]

Divine metamagic applies only to divine spells, IIRC (may or may not be an issue in the hands of a DM, who has more leeway in interpreting the rules creatively).

Though I find the cr+2 adjustment for a lich somewhat high, and feel that I would be better off tacking on the necropilitan template instead. I still get most of the goodies that come with the undead type, and have 2 more class lvs to play around.

Alternatively, throw on class lvs onto an existing undead monster (like a mummy cleric or ghast wizard), though you must bear in mind that those class lvs do not automatically get upgraded to d12s, so your undead caster may have much fewer hp than expected.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by Runestar

Divine metamagic applies only to divine spells, IIRC (may or may not be an issue in the hands of a DM, who has more leeway in interpreting the rules creatively).

Though I find the cr+2 adjustment for a lich somewhat high, and feel that I would be better off tacking on the necropilitan template instead. I still get most of the goodies that come with the undead type, and have 2 more class lvs to play around.

Alternatively, throw on class lvs onto an existing undead monster (like a mummy cleric or ghast wizard), though you must bear in mind that those class lvs do not automatically get upgraded to d12s, so your undead caster may have much fewer hp than expected.

Just curious - why is CR+2 high? Should a lich be CR+0 or +1? A straight level 20 human would not be immune to mind-affecting spells/powers, would not have DR, would not have an innate paralyzing touch, and would likely have a lousy Fort save.

[Runestar]

Just curious - why is CR+2 high?

This implies that a human spellcaster lich is presumably as challenging as 2 non-lich spellcasters of identical build (eg: a sorc20 lich will be as tricky to overcome as 2 human sorc20s). I personally feel that is certainly not the case.

A straight level 20 human would not be immune to mind-affecting spells/powers, would not have DR, would not have an innate paralyzing touch, and would likely have a lousy Fort save.

The dr is inconsequential since such attacks should not be affecting a spellcaster much, if at all (plus at higher lvs, the damage reduced likely represents a small fraction of the damage a fighter can throw out). The other benefits are fairly minor. Your lich should not be attacking with its touch attack under any circumstances (though I suppose it might be handy if the fighter ever provokes an AoO from you for any reason).

As for the weak fort save, well, that is why I recommended necropolitan, since you still get all basic undead traits at cr+0.

[Bungus]

Originally Posted by Runestar

This implies that a human spellcaster lich is presumably as challenging as 2 non-lich spellcasters of identical build (eg: a sorc20 lich will be as tricky to overcome as 2 human sorc20s). I personally feel that is certainly not the case.



The dr is inconsequential since such attacks should not be affecting a spellcaster much, if at all (plus at higher lvs, the damage reduced likely represents a small fraction of the damage a fighter can throw out). The other benefits are fairly minor. Your lich should not be attacking with its touch attack under any circumstances (though I suppose it might be handy if the fighter ever provokes an AoO from you for any reason).

As for the weak fort save, well, that is why I recommended necropolitan, since you still get all basic undead traits at cr+0.

I would agree - two level 20 sorcerers would be way more challenging than one lich that is a level 20 caster. You would have 2 bad guys flinging level 8 and 9 spells around instead of 1. Didn't think about it that way until you pointed it out.