Improved Trip question.

[neth123]

Do you gain the benefits of Improved trip when tripping with a weapon. The feat description led me to believe you only get the bonus when unarmed.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You get the +4 and the follow-up attack regardless of whether you're using the weapon or not. Those are all separate benefits of the feat.

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by neth123

Do you gain the benefits of Improved trip when tripping with a weapon. The feat description led me to believe you only get the bonus when unarmed.

The separation by the period means the two sentences are not reliant on each other.


Improved Trip [General]
Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal
Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special
At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[neth123]

Thanks.

Hmm, we just switched to 3.5 from 2nd Edition last night. Been playing 2e for about 15 years. I really need to learn these rules, a lot of my players know more than me and I can't keep up.

I had a 1st level fighter with Improved Trip pretty much dominate the battlefield today. He would trip something; he would attack, then all the nearby players would finish him off with AoO's when the poor guy tried to get up. I'm not sure how the creatures strategies would have evolved to stop simple combos like this from ruining them. It seems like the boss fights are gonna be too easy these days.

Thanks for the help.

[frankthedm]

Originally Posted by neth123

Thanks.

Hmm, we just switched to 3.5 from 2nd Edition last night. Been playing 2e for about 15 years. I really need to learn these rules, a lot of my players know more than me and I can't keep up.

then one of them should be them one running a 3.5 game. EDIT: i think that came off as ruder than I intended. i just meant that one of the people who know the system are the ones who should be running it, rather than the system masters sitting on the PC side playing "surprise the dm with new rules he has not gotten the hang of"

Originally Posted by neth123

I had a 1st level fighter with Improved Trip pretty much dominate the battlefield today. He would trip something; he would attack, then all the nearby players would finish him off with AoO's when the poor guy tried to get up. I'm not sure how the creatures strategies would have evolved to stop simple combos like this from ruining them. It seems like the boss fights are gonna be too easy these days.

The AoO on standing up was a big mistake added to the 3.5 ruleset. It further devalues the challenge posed by medium creatures.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by neth123

Thanks.

Hmm, we just switched to 3.5 from 2nd Edition last night. Been playing 2e for about 15 years. I really need to learn these rules, a lot of my players know more than me and I can't keep up.

I had a 1st level fighter with Improved Trip pretty much dominate the battlefield today. He would trip something; he would attack, then all the nearby players would finish him off with AoO's when the poor guy tried to get up. I'm not sure how the creatures strategies would have evolved to stop simple combos like this from ruining them. It seems like the boss fights are gonna be too easy these days.

Thanks for the help.

Then, have the bad guys trip them in return. Bad guys do have minions that can surround a tripped PC.

Or, use bad guys with speed that can outrun the PCs and hit them from range and avoid melee altogether... or, low level flying bad guys... or, just bad guys in an elevated position (treetops, rooftops, ridge line above the players, etc) so they can avoid melee.

And, a good way to slow them down at a low level is using "Entangle" - it's got a huge area of effect (40' radius) and is tough to beat at a low level. Just one Entangle and have some minions hit them with arrows while the players attempt to get out of the Entangle.

[Flatus Maximus]

Another way to nullify trip-builds: the spell stand, from PHB2. Cast as an immediate action, the target can stand without provoking an AoO. IMHO, use sparingly so as not to upset the player playing the Fighter.

[Runestar]

PHB2 also has this feat which allows a creature to stand up from prone as a swift action, though it requires ranks in tumble and balance (which most monsters will not have).

Alternatively, just throw larger monsters at them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's also a DC 35 tumble check to stand as a free action (forget if you still provoke an AoO or not) in Complete Adventurer.

There's also my favorite option, the 600 gp boots of agile leaping, from magic item compendium, which allow you to stand from prone as a swift action without an AoO if you have 5 ranks in balance. THe boots also let you use dex instead of str on jump checks, and are totally worth even paying +50% to tack onto another pair of boots or paying x2 for a non-body slot.

There are two skill tricks that let you stand from prone as a swift or immediate action (one skill trick for each) that require tumble ranks to get. Skil tricks are in Complete Scoundrel.

Barring ALL of that...yeah, tripping's great against medium/small humanoids. Anything that's bigger, has many legs, huge str/dex, flying, etc...? Not so much. Just throw a greater variety of enemy types at the party, so trip only dominates some of the time. Heck, you can't even do it on creatures more than one size larger than you. And if there's not a great chance of success, failure could lead to the PC on his back. In my group, people don't usually bother with tripping unless they have a fairly good advantage on the opposed check (or they stop trying once they realize they don't have one).

[Vegepygmy]

When all else fails, use your standard action for Total Defense (+4 to AC) and your move action to stand up; this effectively cancels out the -4 penalty to your AC for being prone when you stand, so none of those attacks of opportunity get a "bonus" to hit you.

Or, if it's an option, go on Total Defense and don't stand up (thus, no attacks of opportunity, and effectively no penalty to your AC against any regular attacks directed at you). Wait for help to arrive.

In any case, don't despair. Improved Trip tends to be very effective at low levels, but a lot less so as you go up.

[aboyd]

StreamOfTheSky outlined many ways to avoid the problems with tripping, and some of them are very good and legitimate. So don't be afraid to look them up and use them.

And don't forget other things too, such as dwarves being more difficult to trip, four-legged creatures being impossible or super-difficult to trip, distance attacks, escape mechanisms such as the "panic button" from Complete Scoundrel, etc.

For example, anyone tripped can escape with any number of spells. In fact, this happened in a game my friend Sam ran a few weeks ago. I was playing an Abrupt Jaunt wizard (free 10' teleport as an immediate action). I also had the 1st-level spell Benign Transposition. When an ally was down and surrounded, I cast the spell to swap places, and then teleported away. If my PC can do it, the bad guys certainly ought to be able to do it.

(Technically, there are two ways to rule on how Benign Transposition works. You can say that the two characters swapping places are literally swapped right down to position of limbs -- the prone guy ends up standing where the wizard stood, and the wizard ends up lying on the ground where the prone guy fell. In that case, you need a second "thing" you can do to get the wizard away from the bad guys, such as the Abrupt Jaunt teleport feature I mentioned. However, most DMs seem to rule that Benign Transposition works like this: the spell simply swaps squares -- so the prone guy ends up where the wizard was, but still prone, and the wizard ends up where the prone guy was, but still standing. If you rule that way, then that spell alone is good enough to save a prone NPC. The downed character will disappear and reappear wherever the wizard was, still prone but not surrounded. And the wizard will appear in the surrounded position, but he will not be prone so no worries about AOO. Knight's Move is a similar spell that requires the character to teleport into a square that would flank a bad guy, but it doesn't require any characters to swap places. Also, it's a swift action spell, which means the fallen character can cast it on the ground without provoking attacks of opportunity, and then instantly transport away from the crowd. He would still be prone upon arriving at his new location, and he'd be next to a bad guy, but one bad guy is better than 5.)

Other spells like the darkness and mist spells will help. Swift Invisibility from the Spell Compendium would allow a character to turn invisible (swift spells do NOT provoke AOO, so it's safe to cast it), and once invisible the bad guy could crawl away or stand without provoking any attacks. Another swift spell, Lightfoot, blocks attacks of opportunity.

Don't forget that while the tumble skill does offer the DC 35 stand-from-prone-without-AOO feature, it also offers the more mundane DC 15 "Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so." Now, while you're prone you move slowly (5' as a move action, or 10' total if you use both your move & standard action), so using tumble will only let you get 5' away with no attacks of opportunity. Still, 5' will get you to a mostly safe position.

Also, if you follow the rule that your movement cannot be reduced below 5' then you'd technically be able to take a tumbling crawl as a 5' move, then still have a standard action left for standing. I'm not clear on the rules for that one.

You can also take a -10 to your tumble check to move at full speed. So a tumbling crawl with a DC of 25 would get you 10 feet away from the crowd trying to AOO your NPC.

One last comment. You probably already know this, having played for years & years, but feats are hard to come by and shouldn't be undermined lightly. Players don't get a lot of them. When they pick one, they are really making a declaration about what kind of character they want to play. So yes, use the many tools at your fingertips to prevent the trip feat from becoming repetitive and boring. But don't trash it all the time. That feat needs to work sometimes. If it doesn't, that player is going to feel robbed, and your game will have a downward spiral as people become too discouraged to maintain interest.

Good luck. Have fun.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Other options!

I forget what book had this extra skill usage, probably C.Adventurer. Basically, you can make a balance check at a -10 penalty to resist being tripped, instead of a str/dex check (stability and 4 legs bonuses still apply). Which for most is a bad deal. But if you max ranks in balance, you can eventually be very hard to trip. If this isn't a printed rule...my DM made it up an I adopted it myself.

Prone Fighting (is the name, iirc) from Complete Warrior is a feat that actually makes you fight better prone than standing! (because it removes all the penalties and lets you retain the ranged AC bonus) I think it also lets you get up as a free action w/o AoO, not sure. The only downside is that it requires Lightning Reflexes, which IMHO is one of the most useless feats in the game...

All of the options I've listed are mostly for agiel fighters, monks, rogues, etc...Which is as it should be. Burly armored Fighter types should be vulnerable when knocked on their asses, kind of like flipping a turtle on its back.

That said, non melee-ers can often do fine while staying prone. You can fire shuriken and crossbows while prone just fine. Mages can lay out death and destruction just fine from the ground. Especially if they teleport out of melee range. One time, my party fought a dragon that was standing on the ground and a guy tripped it. Its breath weapon worked just fine from prone. Just pointing that out, too.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

One time, my party fought a dragon that was standing on the ground and a guy tripped it. Its breath weapon worked just fine from prone. Just pointing that out, too.

Tripped a DRAGON? O.O

I didn't think that'd even been possible. Impressive.

[StreamOfTheSky]

He rolled very well. And was twinked for tripping. And the dragon was only like size medium... It was still cool.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

He rolled very well. And was twinked for tripping. And the dragon was only like size medium... It was still cool.

I see, lol. I agree, that's still cool. I bet the dragon was pretty upset...

[Darklone]

A common houserule: Kneeling.
Standing up from prone: move action provoking AoO.
kneeling from prone: move action that does not provoke or swift action that provokes.
standing up from kneeling: move action that does not provoke or swift action that provokes.

So with this houserule you can get up with a double move. Or if you want to be faster... eat the AoO.

[neth123]

WOW!! Thanks everyone,

@aboyd - absolutely, I certainly had no intention of making the player feel like he wasted his feats. My problem was simply that I didn't know the options the bad guys would have in that situation, and I try hard to play the enemies intelligence correctly, and they were being unfairly hindered by my rules experience

Thanks everyone for all of this info, I'm stoked about finding this forum. You guys and girls are great, I'm looking forward to being part of the community!

[Darklone]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Prone Fighting (is the name, iirc) from Complete Warrior is a feat that actually makes you fight better prone than standing! (because it removes all the penalties and lets you retain the ranged AC bonus) I think it also lets you get up as a free action w/o AoO, not sure. The only downside is that it requires Lightning Reflexes, which IMHO is one of the most useless feats in the game...

Prone Fighting is cool... as long as you don't happen to fight a Spring-Attacking scout