Seriously, even with no multiclassing, the tactical comlexity of having to fight different types of opponents (including DR, flying, etc.) is considerable. Going goliath and taking combat maneuver feats (trip, disarm, etc.) is also fun. There are several great Weapon Style feats between CW, Races of Stone anda couple other books. The PHBII feats add a lot of good options, as do some of the various alternate class features from PHBII and some of the other late 3.5 books. Make use of the Rules Compendium Intimidate skill use that allows you to challenge opponents at the beginning of every combat. Buy MIC items that have limited daily powers to increase versatility and tactical choices. Fighter/Barbarian multiclasses are killer.
Even the straight human fighter with none of that stuff from my latest campaign was pretty interesting.
__________________ "All of this has happened before-but it doesn't have to happen again."
The key to making Fighters "non-boring" is to figure out why your guy or gal does what he does...and how. Give him a personality.
One of my most memorable PCs of all time was a 1ED Fighter named Bear. I made a deal with my DM- give me maxed out physical stats and all of his mental stats would be 6-7s. Bear was a gentle giant, he fought because he was trained to do so by those around him (what else was he going to do?). Despite his nature, though, he had hooked up with a manipulative thief who treated him well...in order to have the most loyal and dangerous bodyguard he could find. That thief was- to Bear- brother, father and God all rolled up into a diminutive package that was his only true friend.
The thief eventually took something he really shouldn't have, and the City Watch boiled out of their barracks like fire ants from a kicked-over mound. As the party fled, the thief told Bear to protect him...
As they crossed a river on a narrow bridge, Bear turned and faced the entire Watch himself, taking down one after another until he died. By then, the party was safely away.
Other fun fighters had unusual intellect or wisdom in the other direction, oddball weapons, quirks & taboos, etc. It wasn't necessarily about the fight.
Sure- dozens of times, in every edition!
Examples from 3.X:
1) Johnny Bones: a NE Ftr/Thief, done to conform to 1Ed type class stats. He was a bit of a street-thug who fell in with a good crowd. Didn't stop him from bullying the party mage, though. Points for style included TWF with Rapier & SS, and studded leather armor with skull-shaped studs.
2) Adragon Von Basten: a CG Ftr/Sorc. The son of a high-class courtesan and a Half-Dragon mercenary, he worked as a bouncer in the brothel until he was forced to leave because he killed an incognito noble who raped and killed the woman he loved (a seamstress who worked at the brothel). He wore Scale armor & shield, fought with a Maul. Most spells he knew had no somatic components. Cast almost no spells in combat- instead, channeling the spell energy for a lightning BW via the Draconic Breath feat (CompArc).
3) Sister Shrike: a LN Ftr/Monk/Kensai. Dex-based, used AoOs & FoB with a Greatspear (Pole Fighter feat lets it be used as a monk weapon), Monkey Grip, and potions of Enlarge to deal out some serious hurt to some dragons at a Dallas Gameday hosted by GenX Games. Battle was her prayer.
Oh, Danny. He of many words. I'm completely with you about how to make a fighter interesting. It's all about characterization with fighters. Why are they doing what they do? What type of warrior are you? Add a little tribal flair for a primitive character, some swashbuckler levels for the suave/dapper type, or just be some kind of crazed vigilante. Power Attack sounds boring when you just say, "I subtract x for y extra damage". Instead, "I swing wildly as I roll across the table and smash him with a beer stein". That sounds way more awesome. Some of the most memorable characters my parties have ever had are the simple fighter types.
Oh, Danny. He of many words. I'm completely with you about how to make a fighter interesting. It's all about characterization with fighters. Why are they doing what they do? What type of warrior are you?
I have often been described as "loquacious"- its a flaw I'm trying to work on.
If you simply using the tactic of: bash enemy, rinse, repeat. Then fighters are pretty dull.
You need to spend all those bonus feats you get to develop some tactics. First thing is go read the SRD section on special attacks. Those are the bread and butter of making exciting melee combat.
I've run many 3.0/3.5 "plain jane" (i.e. single-classed) fighters, and they weren't boring or relied heavily on Prestige classes. They were also very different. One specialized in mounted combat. OK one was your basic Dwarven Tank, but another was lighter armored and using disarm, mobility, and combat expertise. Another was a brawler; specialized in using bare-hands and improvised weapons--great for bar fights.
One thing I will say is that your DM, needs to help out here. Fights vs. one big opponent in an empty 30'x30', will tend to be boring. You need multiple and varied opponents and terrain to help make melee interesting.
For cinematic fights you need tables to jump on, chandeliers to swing from, and a bunch of mooks to mow down.
Personally, I've seen some pretty darned boring sorcerers. I cast fireball, fireball, let's see...fireball, ad naseum.
Personally, I think to many players confuse powerful with exciting. Even a powerful one-trick pony is still pretty boring in my book.
Also, as a member of a party, sometimes your job is to just protect those squishy little spell casters in the back.
For cinematic fights you need tables to jump on, chandeliers to swing from, and a bunch of mooks to mow down.
Yep...a well-described environment in which to act can make a huge difference in the immersion your players feel, and that can lead them to do things like use candelabras as improvised blocking weapons, or bouncing something off of something else to attack from an unexpected angle.
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Personally, I've seen some pretty darned boring sorcerers. I cast fireball, fireball, let's see...fireball, ad naseum.
Some call him Tim the Enchanter?
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Personally, I think to many players confuse powerful with exciting. Even a powerful one-trick pony is still pretty boring in my book.
Depending on the trick, of course.
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Also, as a member of a party, sometimes your job is to just protect those squishy little spell casters in the back.
Definitely- we were fighting Umber Hulks once, and the Wiz had just the right spell selection to take them down.
But he needed a little "meatshield" protection to keep them from coming up his backside, or he'd have gone down as a quick snack for one of the bigger ones.
I get the point of 'why fighter?' or 'just dip' as we all know you can make an effective weapon hacker without bonus fighter feats.
Personally instead of the whole one dimensional adding extra hackening or working out dip levels I tend to embrace this reality and open up a world of unique cool fun following simple rules:
Embrace your class, commit. Be patient and don't max a weapon trust in your bab and wit... you are a fighter and can cope with anything.
1. Only use fighter bonus feats for fighter bonus feats
2. Broaden your options: if you have at 6th power attack, point blank, precise, and quick draw you should be able to shoot an opponent 2x then pull a reach weapon and get an attack of opportunity before your hit. Instead of 'I attack with my katana with which I am specialised' this flexibility and the fact you can try every magic weapon you find and change at will makes for difference... more so if your DM doesn't cut you breaks in chosen equipment.
2. DO NOT use normal feats and bonus feats for anything you can buy as a fighter bonus feat. Instead follow your whims and weaknesses
Guerrilla Scout (heroes of Battle): Gain Spot and Listen as class skills
Fey Heritage and Fey Legacy (complete mage) for spell abilities like unicorns to heal and dimension door
Tru namer feats for truenames
Incarnum Feats for melds
Abberation feats (lords of madness)... weapon mastery in blugeoning weapons, twin great maces, brutal strike and tentacles add up !
etc etc
The world and worlds of non-linear feats are your oyster, your the one character that isn't locked into power attack/2 weapon fighting/improved initiative/spell pen/quicken etc your feats are actually your own.
Be the fey blood magic warrior prince, the gypsy born (fiendish heritage from complete mage) world teleporting merchant of death, the soul eater incarnum using gladiator, the reaver child found in a long abandoned druid circle who knows the true names of things, the escaped aboleth slave cursed and blessed who grows wings, and tentacles, and gills etc etc etc
Make an archetype.
You can because your combat effectiveness is covered by your class abilities: bab and fighter feats so brandish your mighty arms and roar with gargantuan laughter that mocks all other classes
Last edited by insanogeddon; 22nd July 2009 at 03:44 AM..
Reason: : p
You use the Warblade in the fighter's place, that's how you make it non-boring.
However, just because you're hitting things with a weapon, doesn't mean you can't change things up with tactical feats that grant new abilities, for instance. The fighter is the hardest class to get variety of play with. It's not impossible, but neither is it worth it, in my opinion. The Warblade is much less hassle to get variety out of out-of-the-box.
I would agree, if you want a more "variable" fighter, go for warblade.
Not to be a wet blanket, but the Fighter's tactical strength doesn't often come into play.
You are at a disadvantage when trying to trip Large creatures.
You can't disarm monsters that don't fight with weapons.
You certainly don't want to sunder an opponent's magical weapon.
You can't bring a Mount into a dungeon.
Generally, any attack that does damage is far more efficient than fancy tricks. However, your DM's campaign and playing style will determine just how useful your fancy tricks will be. For example, a Swashbuckler-style campaign will have mostly humans or humanoids who will fight with weapons (and disarming of said weapons), while an Asian-flavored one may have lots of mounted and/or unarmed combat with lots of opportunities for trips and such.
IMXP, it's better to kill an opponent than to try and mess around with grapples and trips and such. As much fun as it is to have all of those feats, to rarely see them come into play is both frustrating and disheartening... which gives you even more reason to think of the character first and then fit the game stats to your vision.
__________________ Cocoa and chocolate should not be considered a substitute for medications or your doctor’s advice.
You are at a disadvantage when trying to trip Large creatures.
...unless you have a way to get large yourself and/or boost your strength.
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You can't disarm monsters that don't fight with weapons.
...unless you have a Sword of Sharpness.
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You certainly don't want to sunder an opponent's magical weapon.
That depends on the weapon.
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You can't bring a Mount into a dungeon.
...don't tell the Gnomes and Halflings.
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IMXP, it's better to kill an opponent than to try and mess around with grapples and trips and such.
That is fairly true, but it is a nice option to have if you know you can't drop the foe quickly enough. Sometimes, preventing an opponent from acting as he would wish to is more important than actually dropping him at that moment.
Not to be a wet blanket, but the Fighter's tactical strength doesn't often come into play.
You are at a disadvantage when trying to trip Large creatures.
You can't disarm monsters that don't fight with weapons.
You certainly don't want to sunder an opponent's magical weapon.
You can't bring a Mount into a dungeon.
Generally, any attack that does damage is far more efficient than fancy tricks. However, your DM's campaign and playing style will determine just how useful your fancy tricks will be. For example, a Swashbuckler-style campaign will have mostly humans or humanoids who will fight with weapons (and disarming of said weapons), while an Asian-flavored one may have lots of mounted and/or unarmed combat with lots of opportunities for trips and such.
IMXP, it's better to kill an opponent than to try and mess around with grapples and trips and such. As much fun as it is to have all of those feats, to rarely see them come into play is both frustrating and disheartening... which gives you even more reason to think of the character first and then fit the game stats to your vision.
It really depends upon the situation. Grapple is an autowin against many spellcasters. If the wizard doesn't have dimension door prepped, he's done for once he's grappled. Likewise, if you grapple that orc barbarian, he's not going to be power attacking with his vorpal greatsword anymore. Now, you don't want to grapple a guy in the middle of a group of rogues and you don't want to grapple one member of a hobgoblin swarm, but there will be a lot of situations where you do want to grapple.
The same is true for trip, etc though for trip focused characters, trip is almost always a good idea against medium or smaller foes.
Of the various basic option feats, I think that improved trip and improved grapple are by far the most useful.
There's a viable duelist system available from Nick Logue's Sinister Adventures. Cheap pdf, actually. It has viable rules for parrying and riposete.
__________________ All role playing advice is given without knowledge of you and your group. Only you and your group knows what is fun for you. What you are doing is not badwrongfun. My advice is offered based on what I think might be fun for you to try.
"Art is the demonstration that the ordinary is extraordinary." - Amedee Ozenfant, Foundations of Modern Art
"I already have a place where I can get little recognition for my accomplishments, advance at a very slow pace, and have to work hard to eke out minimum rewards for my efforts. It's called work." - toberane.
As I go back and re-read my post, I realize I was griping over an issue that need not be griped about. It is true - the fighter's tactics are always situational, just like Wizards don't (always) cast Fireball during combat with Fire-using creatures, or Rogues not being able to sneak-attack Undead or Constructs.
But Danny... sundering treasure?! Come ON...
__________________ Cocoa and chocolate should not be considered a substitute for medications or your doctor’s advice.
I agree. Which is why I've been trying to make a houserule to cover sundering that changes how item destruction works. Basically, I never understood why destroying an item physically removes all the magic, and IMO that is the one thing ruining sunder and keeping it from being used. My houserule, when I've finished working out the kinks, will basically say that breaking an item merely suppresses the magic within it. Once it is fully repaired physically (by craft, make whole, etc...), its magical properties return in 24 hours. Or One property returns each 24 hours thereafter, maybe. Instead of losing 100k gp of treasure, you only leave it unusable for a day or so. Still long enough to screw over an enemy for the encounter, and any that happen later if he tries to run away. But you're not shooting yourself in the foot, and if he ends up winning or escaping, his precious gear isn't gone forever.
My online gaming group, Torch of Spirit (Contains all information for the current game I'm co-DMing as well as lots of houserules I'm using or considering for the future. Feel free to check it out.)
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Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky
I agree. Which is why I've been trying to make a houserule to cover sundering that changes how item destruction works. Basically, I never understood why destroying an item physically removes all the magic, and IMO that is the one thing ruining sunder and keeping it from being used. My houserule, when I've finished working out the kinks, will basically say that breaking an item merely suppresses the magic within it. Once it is fully repaired physically (by craft, make whole, etc...), its magical properties return in 24 hours. Or One property returns each 24 hours thereafter, maybe. Instead of losing 100k gp of treasure, you only leave it unusable for a day or so. Still long enough to screw over an enemy for the encounter, and any that happen later if he tries to run away. But you're not shooting yourself in the foot, and if he ends up winning or escaping, his precious gear isn't gone forever.
Me like.
__________________ DnD didn't make the last save.
"If only nerdrage could be harnessed, the world would have all the renewable energy it would ever need."
-- Reigan
My player would lose it if another NPC sundered potential treasure. I should have all my villains do it to their own equipment from now on... hur hur hur...
__________________ Cocoa and chocolate should not be considered a substitute for medications or your doctor’s advice.
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