is there a way? it seems that while other classes have a constantly expanding bag of tricks, whether it's from new spell levels or new base class abilities or both, it seems like fighters have essentially the same gameplay style from level 1 through level 20, just with more hitpoints and without all the fun stuff that casters get.
is it as boring in actuality as it sounds to me on paper?
You use the Warblade in the fighter's place, that's how you make it non-boring.
However, just because you're hitting things with a weapon, doesn't mean you can't change things up with tactical feats that grant new abilities, for instance. The fighter is the hardest class to get variety of play with. It's not impossible, but neither is it worth it, in my opinion. The Warblade is much less hassle to get variety out of out-of-the-box.
I don't know about you, but every single build I've worked on sooner or later runs into a very simple problem: lack of feats.
This is the power of the fighter: where the wizard and cleric get their spells and the rogue gets his skills, the fighter gets feats.
While there are appearent 'no-brainers' like Power Attack and Cleave, the same two feats could have gone elsewhere.
Where a wizard might focus his spells into a specific school or element, the fighter can focus on mobile fighting (spring attack), protective fighting (improved disarm) and/or fighting large crowds (greater cleave)
True, without even looking I can predict the Warblade will probably be more interesting (without making an effort to search for those brilliant feat-combinations the fighter might have) and maybe even more powerfull (since WotC has made it a habit to increase the power of their classes/prc's/feats/spells with every new splatbook they publish)
That doesn't mean you can't make the fighter interesting. But, because it is such a versatile class, you have to look for that interesting combination of feats yourself. It's not hardcoded into the class. Just as wizards have to look for their favorite spells, and rogues have to determine where to focus their skillpoints....
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Monster Manual 2
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These I can access rarely:
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has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?
I would suggest you define 'interesting' as it's a very subjective term. Some may find it interesting to play a fighter who is amazed with the variety and crazy things his companion can do.
What is it that YOU find interesting, since it apparently is NOT a fighter... lol
Accessible at almost any time: http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm
Complete Arcane
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Mage
Complete Divine
Libre Mortis
Heroes of Horror
Drow of the Underdark
Monster Manual 3.5E
Monster Manual 2
DMG/PHB
Psionics Handbook
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Spell Compendium
Tome of Magic
These I can access rarely:
Complete Adventurer
Complete Warrior
Complete Psionic
Races of Stone
Draconomicon
Complete Champion
A few assorted Monstrous Manuals... I can't recall which ones.
I MAY be able to access the Forgotten Realms and Eberron Campaign settings.
You say fighter is boring. Here are some suggestions for builds :
1)multiclass with barbarian, take the feats extra rage and leap attack and calculate the damage that character does
2) Take improved trip with spiked chain as mentioned above or fight with 2 weapons and boots of speed (8 attacks at lvl 12)
3)Open the feats in complete sqoundrel and see which classes can be joined with that of the fighter's ( i once played a martial stalker, fighter-ninja, and was very efficient )
You can find other builds also great and as far as the rp is concerned it is up to you. In one of my campaigns as a figther i was the personal guard of a wizard in the party and made gold out of that
There are many things you can do.Of course fighter is not as interesting as a spellcaster but he is no boring for sure
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has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?
In our last campaign, one of my players mixed levels of Bard and Fighter to get into the Dragon Disciple prestige class. When he told me that's what he wanted to do, I was skeptical; but it turned out to be a very effective combatant. The trick is to forget about spells with DC (so you can get by with a relatively low Cha), then pick from the low-level-but-useful Bard spells. Don't forget UMD, and inspire courage w/ inspirational boost (Spell Compendium) to make up for the loss of BAB due to Bard levels while also buffing your allies.
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Last edited by Flatus Maximus; 7th July 2009 at 01:56 AM..
The key to making Fighters "non-boring" is to figure out why your guy or gal does what he does...and how. Give him a personality.
One of my most memorable PCs of all time was a 1ED Fighter named Bear. I made a deal with my DM- give me maxed out physical stats and all of his mental stats would be 6-7s. Bear was a gentle giant, he fought because he was trained to do so by those around him (what else was he going to do?). Despite his nature, though, he had hooked up with a manipulative thief who treated him well...in order to have the most loyal and dangerous bodyguard he could find. That thief was- to Bear- brother, father and God all rolled up into a diminutive package that was his only true friend.
The thief eventually took something he really shouldn't have, and the City Watch boiled out of their barracks like fire ants from a kicked-over mound. As the party fled, the thief told Bear to protect him...
As they crossed a river on a narrow bridge, Bear turned and faced the entire Watch himself, taking down one after another until he died. By then, the party was safely away.
Other fun fighters had unusual intellect or wisdom in the other direction, oddball weapons, quirks & taboos, etc. It wasn't necessarily about the fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki8481
has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?
Sure- dozens of times, in every edition!
Examples from 3.X:
1) Johnny Bones: a NE Ftr/Thief, done to conform to 1Ed type class stats. He was a bit of a street-thug who fell in with a good crowd. Didn't stop him from bullying the party mage, though. Points for style included TWF with Rapier & SS, and studded leather armor with skull-shaped studs.
2) Adragon Von Basten: a CG Ftr/Sorc. The son of a high-class courtesan and a Half-Dragon mercenary, he worked as a bouncer in the brothel until he was forced to leave because he killed an incognito noble who raped and killed the woman he loved (a seamstress who worked at the brothel). He wore Scale armor & shield, fought with a Maul. Most spells he knew had no somatic components. Cast almost no spells in combat- instead, channeling the spell energy for a lightning BW via the Draconic Breath feat (CompArc).
3) Sister Shrike: a LN Ftr/Monk/Kensai. Dex-based, used AoOs & FoB with a Greatspear (Pole Fighter feat lets it be used as a monk weapon), Monkey Grip, and potions of Enlarge to deal out some serious hurt to some dragons at a Dallas Gameday hosted by GenX Games. Battle was her prayer.
I think there is room for single-classed Fighters to be interesting:
1) Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
2) Tactical Feats from Complete Warrior (and others). Each of these gives the fighter three situational tricks.
3) PHB II feats.
4) And you can even take a few maneuvers/stances from Book of 9 Swords via feats.
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it seems like fighters have essentially the same gameplay style from level 1 through level 20, just with more hitpoints and without all the fun stuff that casters get.
Herzog has it right. Wizards get spells, rogues get skills, and fighters get feats. You pick a fighter class if you want to be feat-obsessed.
Sharkon also hit on a good point -- even just a single level of barbarian can do you real good. Make it your first level, and pick human for your race. You'll get two feats, and you can do exactly what Sharkon said and then roll right into fighter.
As for what *I* do to make fighters more interesting, well.... First, I have a house rule for the game I DM. That is: fighter bonus feats are awarded at any level that a normal feat is not awarded. (Levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, 20). By level 20, this gives 3 more feats than normal. That allows a level 20 fighter to essentially have a whole extra mini feat chain from the house rule. By level 5 or 6, you have one more feat than a "normal" fighter.
Second, although I do not allow Book of 9 Swords into my campaign (a very "martial power on steroids" kind of book), I do allow all the Complete books, along with the PHB 2. So I try to take advantage of feats that are unexpectedly good in those extra books.
For example, in Complete Warrior, I like the Ranged Disarm and Ranged Pin feats almost exclusively for the cool flavor. Ranged Pin in particular is dangerous, because a DM can "nerf" the feat by merely having all his enemies avoid walls & trees. However, if your DM is a fair player, that feat is a really fun way to stop the bad guy from escaping. Ranged Disarm is also fun in that if you get really good at it, it's awesome to have a high-level character disarm a room full of bad guys.
I like Shield Slam from the same book just due to the ability to apply something other than hit point damage. I've been toying with allowing Shield Slam to do a 1-round Stun instead of just Daze -- this way a fighter can work with a rogue to enable sneak attacks. It's pretty high level stuff, so I don't think it's terribly unbalancing in concept, although I've not yet tried it in gameplay.
The Combat Brute and Raptor School feats are fun just for the varied attack styles. The High Sword Low Axe is awesome for free trip attempts. I love the idea of a two-handed weapon master striding amongst foes, knocking them over as he goes.
In the Player's Handbook 2, the Penetrating Shot feat gives a bow-using fighter something similar to a lightning bolt effect -- the shot hits everyone in a 60' line. That's cool, although it's situational. Telling Blow is just crazy-good for a fighter/rogue multiclass character. Especially a rogue with all the feats that make crits more frequent. Combat Panache & Shadow Striker are also good for such a character.
Blood-Spiked Charger is awesome for shield-bashing fighters.
I also allow some fighter bonus feats from the Net Book of Feats. If you haven't heard of that, it's a collection of online custom-made feats that come with balance ratings, so a DM can tell if a feat is a good fit for his campaign. I'll tell you about the three coolest feats I allow from that. First, Bleeding Critical, which allows a fighter to do 1 point of Constitution damage on a strike. I have ruled that the effect stacks, so if a fighter manages to score 3 crits against an opponent, then that enemy has lost 3 points of Constitution, including the lowered hit point totals that it implies.
Second, the feat Opportunity Shot allows bows to be used for attacks of opportunity at point-blank range. This gives a bow-fighter a huge threatened area. Couple this with the Combat Reflexes feat, and you have a Legolas-type that can whip arrows all over the battlefield, many times.
Finally, the feat Riposte allows you an AOO at anyone who swings at you and misses. Depending on the DM, it may be that "1 or more" misses gets you one riposte, or it may be that each miss earns you a riposte. If the latter, this scales up really well at high levels where you could be surrounded by 2 or more enemies with many attacks; you could slice & dice them in retaliation a whole lot. It can cause a fighter to deal out as much damage to a hostile crowd as a wizard's fireball or other AOE spells.
I once made a fighter with improved disarm, improved trip, improved unarmed strike and, improved grapple. Although He fought with A Dwarven waraxe he also carried a truncheron fopr non-lethal combat, and often disarmed foes rather than directly attacking them. also Disarming is good against spellcasters. So is grappling. So is disarming a grappling spellcaster. One can "disarm" a holy symbol or spell compoment pouch. My DM had his spellcasters running away from my fighter because he did that.
Fighte/Rogue (Thief) is a classic since 1st edition and in 3.5 with Prestige class you can do almost anything in this way.
I remember a Balrog who struck our Fighter/Rogue 8/11 fighting with 2 weapons, missed his save and resistance vs Holy aura, was blinded, lost his dexterity and died in one round...... way too much 6 sided dice
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The key to making Fighters "non-boring" is to figure out why your guy or gal does what he does...and how. Give him a personality.
This is the most important advice. Actually, if you think you'll enjoy playing the role of a fighter, then you probably will - if not, play something else!
The only advice I have to add that hasn't been mentioned yet:
Take a good look at the magic items that are available at your level. They are an excellent way to add to your bag of tricks (speaking of which is a good example for an item with open-ended usefulness in many situations - combat or otherwise!).
If you are allowed to use the MIC, it's got a lot of low-priced, useful items that can be used 1-3 times per day to expand your options. Chosen carefully you can alleviate most of a fighter's weaknesses.
To not be boring, first you need to decide what it is you find boring. Is it doing the same thing every round? Power Attack or Combat Expertise and the subsequent guessing/calculating how much attack bonus you can afford to turn into damage or AC may be all you need. Or you could wield a bastard sword and buckler and switch between weapon and shield and two handed attacking as the situation warrants. Or maybe you would rather be playing a fighter/rogue so you can scheme how to five foot step in order to get combat advantage. Or maybe it's just doing damage that is boring. In that case, take some feats to give you other options. Improved Trip, Improved Disarm (if your campaign features a lot of weapon using foes), etc. You can also take the various grapple feats (or multiclass to Monk to get them). Or maybe you desperately wish for some resource management to be a part of your character. Multiclass paladin or cleric for smites and channel divinity feats may be what you are looking for. (Or maybe multiclass barbarian and managing your rages will do the trick).
It does mostly come down to feats and multiclassing, but a lot depends upon what you want to do.
Mathematical complexity:
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Expertise
More mobility: Dodge+mobility+spring attack+(PHB 2) bounding assault
More damage based on movement: multiclass scout
More damage based on position: multiclass rogue
Defense based on position: Uncanny dodge, Elusive Target
Inflict conditions: Three mountain style+shield slam+shield charge (heavy mace and shield). Charge someone, knock them prone, and make them save against being dazed. Then hit them several times with your mace and make them save against being dazed.
Sequential maneuver combinations: shock trooper, combat brute (if you combine them with leap attack and elusive target, this can yield a really impressive series of moves--on the other hand, leap attack is rather broken so sane DMs should not allow it, but it's still a good combo without leap attack).
Additional combat options: wield a reach weapon or bastard sword/waraxe and buckler. Get the Improved Grapple feat. Etc.
Resource management:
Fighter/Cleric (or paladin)/Templar (or warpriest). Take at most 4 cleric levels and look for swift action spells or abilities that increase your combat prowess. (War domain is a good source of weapon feats).
Barbarian/Fighter
Giving bonuses to your allies and yourself:
Fighter/Marshal (Miniatures Handbook). You should take at least four levels of Marshal but you can easily benefit from as many as 8. This combo also combines very well with paladin (if lawful good) or hexblade (if not good). The more mileage you can get out of your charisma the better.
Fighters don't have to be boring. But you do need to put at least as much thought into your feats class, and equipment choices as a sorcerer puts into his spell selection if you want to be both interesting and effective. For people who like simple and effective, there are barbarians.
Well, aside from picking up Book of Nine Swords or D&D 4E:
Pick feats that give you new options in combat (or at least make you good at them.).
First step is to ignore feats like Weapon Focus and related feats. If all you want is power, they might indeed be a good choice, but if you want the character to play interesting and with variety, they just suck. They don't give you options, just bonuses to attack and damage. If all a Wizard could do was select the same spell but with more damage, he wouldn't be as interesting as he is, right?
So, good feats to take:
- Improved Trip. Trip is one of the more powerful conditions you can inflict on your enemy - if he is knocked prone, he loses his chance for a full attack or has to suck up hefty penalties. And he can't move, either.
- Improved Disarm. Great against humanoid foes within a reasonable size (Huge Giants wielding Two-Handed weapons are probably never a good choice).
- Improved Grapple. Turn of enemy spellcasters.
- Whirlwind Attack. Not necessarily as powerful as it could be, but very "cool".
- Precise Shot and/Or Far Shot: Gives you a notably different option in combat, especially useful if you have flying enemies or lots of difficult terrain between you and the enemy. I think there is also a feat somewhere that allows you to use Strength instead of Dexterity for thrown weapons. Combined with a Returning weapon.
- Skill Focus (Intimidate). Your only social skill, and you probably don't have the Charisma.
- Any tactical feats that fit your weapon choice(s).
You don't need all of these feats, and it will take quite some time since you can get them, too, so you need to set priorities.
Multiclass Options:
- Ranger for more skill points. Overall, you get a lot of "bang" for your back, improved saves, free feats and so on. Being able to go scouting together with a Rogue could make a big difference. Of course, you migh want to invest into non-heavy armor.
- Barbarian for Rage. Pick Extra Rage to get more uses. You also get slightly more skill points, might be a good way to boost your Survival or Intimidate skill. Intimidate is your only social interaction skill you can keep reasonably high, and it might allow you to participate in uncommon situations.
- Rogue is not a terrible choice, but losing the attack bonus might hurt too much. Of course, some extra sneak attack damage is nothing to sneeze at, and the skill points gained can be used to master a few useful skills - Stealth related, Perception related, Social related, or even Use Magic Device.
IIRC, the Book of Iron Might also provides an interesting approach to get more combat maneuvers out of the system. That would give you a lot of options every round, allowing you to combine disarms, blinding attacks and similar stuff.
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has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?
Cleric/Fighter builds can prove very able and very fun. Of course you can also do things like build toward a PrC as well, like Knight Protector.
But in the end the fighter is about more then just taking his swing on his turn. With the right feats you can disarm foes who threaten you or your friends, you can knock foes away from the more vulnerable party members, like you mage with a good bull rush. If you take the feats for it you really can control much of what the foes you face can do, it just depends on what you take and how you use it. Look at your choices for feats, it's simply massive and notice just how many feats you as a fighter will be able to get. You can build a ranged damage dealer if you like, a horse knight with no equal on the open field, a truly brutal damage dealer with either TWF or a good two hander, a battle field controller with knock around feats and disarm/sunder. Your limited only by your imagination with a fighter, he can be so many different things. Or you can simply swing a sword, if that is all you want him to do.
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