Arcane Thesis - Too Powerful or Balanced?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Arcane Thesis is like anyfeat that requires a lot of other feats to be worth taking. It gets stronger the more related feats you take. If you're ok with that, it should work fine in your game. Really, it's no different than a human psion taking psionic body and NOTHING but psionic feats for massive bonus hp relative to your level, any one of the heritage feat lines, etc...

[Olaf the Stout]

Ok, the ruling I decided to go with was to allow the feat, but the caster must be able cast a spell of that level before the reduced metamagic is taken into account.

So if a caster took Arcane Thesis on a Fireball and he was 9th level, he could only add enough metamagic feats to make the spell 5th level (since that is the highest level of spell he could cast at 9th level).

So that means he could only put a single +2 metamagic feat on it (and cast it as a 4th level spell) or two +1 metamagic feats on it (and cast it as a 3rd level spell).

That makes it still an ok feat, without being too overpowering in the hands of a caster with lots of metamagic feats.

Olaf the Stout

[irdeggman]

It's your game but are you sure it actually is that powerful?

It only applies to 1 spell and the caster still needs to have all of the metamagic feats to be able to use it to full advantage.

Look at the other feats in the PHB II and make sure that you rule them in a similar manner.

The feats in that book tend to be more powerful than others are. So you need to look at the other feats like - weapon mastery or weapon supremacy and see if they "belong" too.

[Olaf the Stout]

I think half the reason I am nerfing it a bit is that it is my resident powergamer that is looking at taking the feat. He is very adept at picking out strong feats so I am normally wary of what he chooses. His character is more than powerful enough as it is compared to the other PC's. If it was one of the other players I probably wouldn't be so worried. But I've seen what combinations he can come up with before!

The good thing about my group's powergamer is that at least he plays within my rules. If I don't allow him to take something from a splatbook, or if I nerf it down a bit, he doesn't complain. He just rolls with it. Sometimes that means he will no longer take the feat or the spell. Other times he still thinks it is worth taking, even with the nerf.

Olaf the Stout

[Ifni]

For what it's worth, I think that's a good call. If I was using Arcane Thesis I'd tend to rule it to only allow a total -1 reduction to the spell level, not -1 per metamagic feat, but your way is fine too.

I briefly played with Arcane Thesis in a PbP game, because the GM had specifically asked us to make powerful characters. I didn't even pick a particularly nasty Thesis spell (Rainbow Beam - Split + Empowered for 15d12 damage as a L4 spell, or add Ocular Spell for 30d12 in a full-round action at the cost of two L5 slots), and it still broke the first few encounters (after which the game collapsed).

Arcane Thesis, applied to a direct damage spell, can raise an arcanist's damage output far above what you would normally expect. The really nasty options aren't ordinary damage though - consider spells that do no-save ability damage or negative levels. A L13 wizard with Arcane Thesis (Enervation) and three metamagic feats can lay down (4d4)*1.5 (average 15) negative levels as a full-round action. If you decide to allow Ray of Stupidity (which I would recommend against, independent of Arcane Thesis), one full-round action and two L5 spell slots can get you an average of 20 points of Int damage - although really, you'll probably just want to stick with the L4 standard-action version: average 10 Int damage frequently suffices to incapacitate either big dumb foes or enemy wizards.

Oh, and just a minor pet peeve: Ray of Enfeeblement imposes an ability penalty, it doesn't do ability damage. This means it doesn't stack with itself. Empowering Ray of Enfeeblement works to increase the penalty, but if you split or twin it for extra rays, you take the largest penalty from an individual ray, you don't add them all together.

[Elethiomel]

Originally Posted by kent110

I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels. The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is un ressistable. Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.

"50ish" damage has been shown to be incorrect before in this thread. How do you get that number?

[Drowbane]

As a DM, I'm pretty damn liberal with what I allow in my games. And I house rule Arcane Thesis so that it only brings down the cost *once*. And it is still a rockin' good feat.

I've seen it abused, and it can be scary (especially in a campaign where PCs get a feat per level... which is standard around here).

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you only allow it to bring down one feat's cost, it's basically the same as easy/practical metamagic, except it only applies to a single spell, and gives +2 Cl on that spell, instead of every spell using the metamagic feat. Or if you meant you could choose each time to apply it to one metamagic feat for the spell but the feat could be different each time...I guess that's a little more flexibility. Still seems outright weaker than practical/easy meta. Seldom do you really have many metamagic feats particularly useful for a spell, even if you've bothered to spend feats on them all.

I still don't think AT is that bad as long as you don't let it reduce below +0 for "level reductions" or anything crazy like that. Limiting it to the highest level you could cast before reductions severely gimps it and makes it even more pointless to take for a mid level spell. If I were to limit it...I guess I'd say the end result before reductions couldn't be above a level 9 spell (until you can cast epic spells, at least). You could have a maximized, empowered scorching ray (without AT = lvl 7; with = lvl 5) at CL 9, even though you can't cast level 7 spells. But you couldn't also....*draws a blank trying to think of an example* add another +3 feat to it, even at CL 13 when you can cast level 7 spells (as it would become a level 7 spell after AT, level 10 w/o). Just for another idea to limit it. I will note divine metamagic isn't so limited. I forget if the bardic feat to spend music usages is or not, but it'd be really lame if they cracked down on the bard of all people.

[irdeggman]

The feat as written is on par with other feats from the same book.

Nerf them all or nerf none of them.

I will not make a judgement on whether I think the feats in PHB II are too powerful (in general) or not, only that this feat is about as powerful as other feats there of equivalent prerequisite level.

[Heaven's Thunder Ham]

There's some good rules talk in this thread:

Arcane Thesis Abuse (PHB II)

the original designer came out and said a bit.

[Shin Okada]

Arcane Thesis is for 1 spell. That is the biggest limitation. It will make a one trick pony, especially in case of blasters.

If you choose some force spell, that will not be the spell which inflicts the biggest damages amongst the spells in the same level. If you choose some energy spell, from time to time, you will meet creatures immune or highly resistant to that energy type. Energy Substitution metamagic helps, but not always. Some monsters are immune to multiple types of energies.

Also, unless your DM allow you retraining often, choosing a spell for Arcane Thesis is a painful decision making. There are problems of dice caps and save DCs. Even if empowered and maximized, the spell you have chosen will eventually become your second-late attack or worse, due to lower limit of number of dice you can roll and lower save DC.

In case of Shadowcraft Mage, that can make a very strong spell caster in med to higher level. Still, the class relies on (Shadow) spells and thus, almost useless in inner/outer planes because those planes are not connected to shadow plane. As higher level adventures tend involve some encounters in inner/outer planes (or, often entirely take place in such planes), Shadowcraft Mage is far from versatile.