Arcane Thesis - Too Powerful or Balanced?

[Olaf the Stout]

Arcane Thesis lets you pick 1 spell and cast it at +2 spell level. Additionally, all Metamagic you use in the spell are reduced by 1 level (check the PHBII errata).

So that means that you could cast an Enlarged (+1 spell level), Extended(+1), Silent(+1), Still(+1), Scupted (+1) Arcane Thesis'd spell without increasing the level of the spell.

Does anyone think that is too powerful? Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.

I ask because one of my players is looking at getting Arcane Thesis and wanted me to see if I would allow the feat in my campaign.

Olaf the Stout

[Kylas]

Originally Posted by Olaf the Stout

Arcane Thesis lets you pick 1 spell and cast it at +2 spell level. Additionally, all Metamagic you use in the spell are reduced by 1 level (check the PHBII errata).

So that means that you could cast an Enlarged (+1 spell level), Extended(+1), Silent(+1), Still(+1), Scupted (+1) Arcane Thesis'd spell without increasing the level of the spell.

Does anyone think that is too powerful? Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.

I ask because one of my players is looking at getting Arcane Thesis and wanted me to see if I would allow the feat in my campaign.

Olaf the Stout

For the most part I think is okay for the reasons stated above, but if you are unsure about your game being broken ask the player what spell he plans on using it on. Then when a BBEG rolls around you'll be well prepared. I'm not saying have all your Npc's run around with cloak of antispell X, but try and strike a balance between player having fun with his investment and the group having fun, (especially the DM.) I think it makes for a great rematch battle when the main strategy used to thwart BBEG so easily the first time doesn't work so effectively now.

[akbearfoot]

That makes it WAY too powerful for a single feat.


It was a strong feat the way I understood it before, which was +2 caster levels and -1 from the total spell level. The errata version is way over the top.

The 4th level Magic missile doing average of around 50 force damage is a good example. Way to much damage for such a low level spell as a 7th level character. Make it worse with a Scorching Ray...9th level caster doing around 135 fire damage with a 5th level spell slot. Thats more damage than a Meteor Swarm on average!

4th level empowered maximized Ray of Enfeeblment from 20-27 points of strength penalty...hrmm

[StreamOfTheSky]

1. A level 4 Empowered Scorching Ray, with no other feats or investment at all, does an average of 42 damage. Once you hit CL 11, it surpasses your magic missile example in damage.

2. Even if it did 50 str penalty, ray of enfeeblement couldn't reduce a creature's str below one, so it never becomes an instant win button, even after boosting it to spell levels where you could just learn instant win buttons.


I think arcane thesis is like any costly build. It mostly sucks and isn't worth it on its own, but can get out of hand if enough resources are devoted to the one trick. I really don't think it's a big deal, though. You have to spend a lot of feats to start seeing a huge benefit, and casting the same spell over and over would be mind-numbingly boring to me. If you're not casting that spell at least 1/4 of the time and you've spent all your feats towards it...I'd call that a bad investment, YMMV.

Even for the Killer Gnome" Shadowcraft Mage build, which can cast any Sorcerer/Wizard evocation or conuration (creation and summoning only) using just a single spell (ie, enough versatility ot not get boring)...that build literally REQUIRES 4 feats right off the bat to work right. So, it's already quite feat starved. Arcane Thesis is kinda lowsy even for that build if all you're getting is +2 CL. You need to pick up metamagic feats, too. (And the only one you have as part of the required 4, Heighten Spell, does not benefit from AT)

In any case, like others said...it's one spell. Once he gets well known or faces the same foe a second time, said foes can be expected to have measures to foil the one spell at least sometimes.

[green slime]

I have no problem with it. Except I have the following conditions:

I only allow the caster to reduce the cost of the metamagical additions once per metamagical feat (as I also allow multiple additions of the same metamagical feat to a single spell).

You can't ever cast a spell of a higher level (prior to reductions) than you could cast ordinarily. So as an example, no 7th level Wizard, can stack on metamagical feats to cast a spell of effective level higher than 4th, regardless of various reductions. Such a character cannot yet handle the energies required.

So while a 7th level wizard can cast an Arcane thesised empowered acid arrow, as a third level spell, he can't squeeze in another metamagic feat, nor could he cast a Arcane thesised maximized acid arrow, as both of these scenarios would push the effective spell level beyond four.

[Runestar]

Arcane thesis was clarified (see the PHB2 errata on the wotc website) to subtract 1 only from the final spell lv. Whether it will allow you to reduce the final lv adjustment to zero (or even negative) is still debatable though, though most disallow the latter (and are split with regards to the former).

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by Runestar

Arcane thesis was clarified (see the PHB2 errata on the wotc website) to subtract 1 only from the final spell lv. Whether it will allow you to reduce the final lv adjustment to zero (or even negative) is still debatable though, though most disallow the latter (and are split with regards to the former).

Nope that is not what it says - check the example given. OP is correct. But since it applies to a single spell per feat and you must still have all of the metamagic feats you are applying and be at least 6th level skill rank of 9 prerequisitie - no it is not all that powerful, compared to some of the other feats in PHB 2.

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit” section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.”

[MichaelK]

Originally Posted by Olaf the Stout

Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.

I'd say yes, it's still balanced for precisely that reason.

What's more I love the flavor of that feat.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

1. A level 4 Empowered Scorching Ray, with no other feats or investment at all, does an average of 42 damage. Once you hit CL 11, it surpasses your magic missile example in damage.

2. Even if it did 50 str penalty, ray of enfeeblement couldn't reduce a creature's str below one, so it never becomes an instant win button, even after boosting it to spell levels where you could just learn instant win buttons.


I think arcane thesis is like any costly build. It mostly sucks and isn't worth it on its own, but can get out of hand if enough resources are devoted to the one trick. I really don't think it's a big deal, though. You have to spend a lot of feats to start seeing a huge benefit, and casting the same spell over and over would be mind-numbingly boring to me. If you're not casting that spell at least 1/4 of the time and you've spent all your feats towards it...I'd call that a bad investment, YMMV.

Even for the Killer Gnome" Shadowcraft Mage build, which can cast any Sorcerer/Wizard evocation or conuration (creation and summoning only) using just a single spell (ie, enough versatility ot not get boring)...that build literally REQUIRES 4 feats right off the bat to work right. So, it's already quite feat starved. Arcane Thesis is kinda lowsy even for that build if all you're getting is +2 CL. You need to pick up metamagic feats, too. (And the only one you have as part of the required 4, Heighten Spell, does not benefit from AT)

In any case, like others said...it's one spell. Once he gets well known or faces the same foe a second time, said foes can be expected to have measures to foil the one spell at least sometimes.

Note, a Strength of 1 against a monster that usually has a Strength of 20 or up is basically a "I WIN" button. That would reduce its primary attacks by around 10 points.

Simplest solution is to apply the benefit only to one of the metamagic effects on the spell.

And only allow it for Fireball. Rename the feat "Overpowered Fireball". That's what we did. Well, at least in jest.

[akbearfoot]

I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels. The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is unresistable. Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.

Why compare scorching ray to magic missile when I already showcased it doing more damage than a 9th level spell, as a 9th level caster even.

Know any humanoids or small to large creatures that use manufactured weapons or armor that can stay standing with a 1 Strength? Or bruteish monsters who are still a challenge when they suck -13 to hit and damage with no save? See Split Ray eventually for even more cheeze-wiz.


Wizards get free metamagic feats, and tons of the desireable caster PrCs require metamagic feats anyways. That's not a very high associated cost along with the cost of this feat itself. Nobody would bother taking the feat unless they liked using the spell a lot. So try and look at it in the best ways it will be used, not the worst most unlikely ways.

Might make the mage a 1 trick pony, but nobody will survive long enough to tell their buddies anyways.

[karlstar]

Don't let the 50 points of magic missile damage scare you. An empowered, Sudden maximized Lesser Orb of Acid, will be a 3rd level spell and do 45 points of basically non-resistable damage, except for that pretty trivial ranged touch attack. Not that much different.

[green slime]

Originally Posted by akbearfoot

I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels. The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is unresistable. Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.

Strikes me, that with magic missile being so popular, it is a waste to spend so many feats to enhance it. The popularity of magic missile ensures the commanality of shield, brooches of shielding, and the like. Metamagic feats increases the damage per missile, but not the number of missiles. IMX, at least half the players equip their characters with brooches of shielding.

[Jhaelen]

Originally Posted by green slime

Strikes me, that with magic missile being so popular, it is a waste to spend so many feats to enhance it. The popularity of magic missile ensures the commanality of shield, brooches of shielding, and the like. Metamagic feats increases the damage per missile, but not the number of missiles. IMX, at least half the players equip their characters with brooches of shielding.

... unless arcane classes have become completely unpopular because of the introduction of psionic classes.

In my campaign it's twin rayed / transdimensional / empowered / maximized / etc. crystal shards that get lobbed around.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by akbearfoot

The 4th level Magic missile doing average of around 50 force damage is a good example. Way to much damage for such a low level spell as a 7th level character. Make it worse with a Scorching Ray...9th level caster doing around 135 fire damage with a 5th level spell slot. Thats more damage than a Meteor Swarm on average!

How can you get magic missile to do 50 pts of damage?

You get a maximum of 5 missiles with a normal maximum damage of 25 pts (5 x 5) then multiply it by 1 1/2 and you still only get 37 (always round down) - so maximized and empowered only gets you 1 1/2 times 25 pts.

[akbearfoot]

I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42. I think in my head I originally multiplied the roll by 1.5 like you normally would for just being empowered. Cuz that would be right at 50 pts. I still think that's too much automatic damage. IMX brooches of shielding get sold as soon as they get found. The low hp casters have shield, and everyone else begs to be hit with direct damage rather than the jillion other nasty things casters can do. That or they are way more worried about wearing their amulets of health or natural armor (or both).

Granted direct damage spells are usually not the best choice in combat...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.

I personally consider the orb spells borderline broken, and they are essentially banned in all games I have been playing in. Along with Wraithstrike, the Dex damage touch attack that 1-shots great wyrms with no save, and a few other things.

[green slime]

Originally Posted by akbearfoot

I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42. I think in my head I originally multiplied the roll by 1.5 like you normally would for just being empowered. Cuz that would be right at 50 pts. I still think that's too much automatic damage. IMX brooches of shielding get sold as soon as they get found. The low hp casters have shield, and everyone else begs to be hit with direct damage rather than the jillion other nasty things casters can do. That or they are way more worried about wearing their amulets of health or natural armor (or both).

Granted direct damage spells are usually not the best choice in combat...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.

I personally consider the orb spells borderline broken, and they are essentially banned in all games I have been playing in. Along with Wraithstrike, the Dex damage touch attack that 1-shots great wyrms with no save, and a few other things.

Akbear, when someone has gone to the bother to actually do the math for an empowered maximised magic missile, how do you then still figure to go on missmanaging figures? Trying to undermine your own argument even further?

Other than that, I don't see much in reference to the OP's query about arcane thesis. Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Mon]

Originally Posted by akbearfoot

I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42.

Eh? The damage from a maximized and empowered magic missile cannot reach 42, much less average that much.

25 (maximized) + 6.25 (average addition from being empowered*) = 31.25 average

* 5d4 averages out to 12.5, /2 = 6.25 extra for empower, since empowering a maximised spell still requires you to roll damage for the empower portion. Also the +1s aren't empowered because they are not variable. The minimum is 27.5 (if all 1s are rolled for empowering), the maximum is 35 (if all 4s are rolled for empowering). Even if you allowed the +1s to be empowered, the average would be 33.75 maximum would be 37.5.

Originally Posted by akbearfoot

...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.

True, but that doesn't occur in this case. With arcane thesis, the above uses a 4th level spell slot. It isn't doing close to what a 9th level spell can dish out.

[Runestar]

25 (maximized) + 6.25 (average addition from being empowered*) = 31.25 average

Note that you roll for the final total damage before multiplying it by 1.5 (the empower spell feat entry even uses magic missile as an example), it would be 25 + (5d4+5)*0.5, or 33.75 ~ 34 damage on average.

I would say it seems fairly anemic for what you should be getting out of a 4th lv slot, considering that you could be casting evard's tentacles, enervation, or stoneskin. Heck, even an empowered fireball (modified by arcane thesis) does much more damage, and to everyone in a radius.

I think that as a DM, you may need to metagame a little to keep this feat in check. If the player in question favours the use of said spell (say he is a sorc who applies the feat to his favourite damage spell, which he then proceeds to spam repeatedly), you may want to start giving some of your foes limited resistance to his tactic. How far you need to go would depend on how powerful the end result is (such as better reflex saves, fire resistance or simply spreading them out more).

Just don't go overboard and completely neuter that spell, but do what you need to prevent it from becoming overpowered, if that is the case.

[Mon]

*Checks PHB* I stand corrected on the +1s not being empowered.

Obligatory weak excuse: We've always just used the d20srd.org description of empower spell, which doesn't include the magic missile example. A literal reading of the RAW (without the example) would suggest that you don't multiply the +1s since they aren't variable. *shrug* Learn something new every day.

Obligatory and equally weak attempt to claw back some authority: Point still valid though. Nobody's reaching 42 damage with that combo :P

[akbearfoot]

I stand corrected. I no longer think it is overpowered for basic magic missile. I thought it did considerably more damage.

Math Hard! apparently.


I do still think it is too strong for a single feat though. Probably not 'way overpowered' like I originally thought though. I think a feat that just gave you +2 Caster levels for a single spell would be a decent feat worth taking in some cases.

Seems like a no-brainer must have for any blaster or sorcerer as it appears in the errata. Pick 1 offensive spell, metamagic the snot out of it for about 8 levels, then retrain it to a bigger spell.