Multiple Attacks of Opportunity

[NewJeffCT]

I just wanted to clarify on this. In the Rules Compendium, if says you can take multiple AoOs against one opponent if they provoke more than one.

From the Rules Compendium on Multiple Attacks of Opportunity, page 19: "Some abilities allow you to make more than one AoO per round... if the same opponent provokes two AoOs from you, however, you could make two separate AoOs. Each provoking act represents a different opportunity. "

So, in thinking that if your standard size Medium PC charged a size Huge bad guy with a 15 foot reach, Combat Reflexes and a Dex of at least 12, the bad guy would get one AoO when the PC closes from 15 feet to 10, and then another when the PC closes from 10 feet to 5.

However, in this WotC article from 2004:
"Note that moving out of more than one threatened square during a turn counts as only one "opportunity" for the moving creature's foes (see page 138 in the Player's Handbook). If the character in the previous example moved and left three (or more) squares that you threaten and did nothing else that provokes attacks of opportunity from you, you'd get only one attack of opportunity against him. This seems to indicate this is not the case.

Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity (Part Two)

so, none of my huge bad guys can get more than 1 AoO vs a charging PC? Any feats that would allow a huge or bigger bad guys to get multiple AoOs vs a charger?

Thanks

[Elethiomel]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

Each provoking act represents a different opportunity.

This is the key wording that lets the two rulings coexist without contradicting each other.
Moving is one act, so continuing to move is not a new (different) opportunity.

However, there are several feats that allow you to get multiple opportunities on a charge. The relevant post on the gleemax char op forums is vandalised by the OP so I can't quickly get you the feat names (I'm also AFB), but I do recall feats called "Stand Still" and "Large and In Charge". There's also a feat that allows an AoO on anyone who charges you; IIRC it triggers when someone enters a square you threaten while charging you. I rule this is a different "act" than leaving a square within your threatened area. Unfortunately I do not remember the name of this feat.

Also if you want your Huge thing to be really scary, tripping on the AoO is the way to go. Improved Trip allows you an immediate second attack on them while they are prone. A prone opponent gives +4 - use this attack to disarm. Now they're on the ground and have no weapon. This is bound to generate more AoOs for you.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also handy to reference, from the core books: Attacks Of Opportunity :: d20srd.org

The feat to get an AoO when someone charges you is called Hold the Line, from C.Warrior. Stand Still gives a new use for AoOs, it does no help you get them. No idea what Large and in Charge does.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Also handy to reference, from the core books: Attacks Of Opportunity :: d20srd.org

The feat to get an AoO when someone charges you is called Hold the Line, from C.Warrior. Stand Still gives a new use for AoOs, it does no help you get them. No idea what Large and in Charge does.

Large & In Charge allows the size Large or bigger creature with 10' (or more) of reach to push back & stop a foe that it hits with a successful AoO. So, you could stop a charge and leave them 5' out of your space. Meaning, to get back into your space, they would then provoke another AoO.

Draconomicon, Page 71.

I'm also the one that started this same thread on the WotC boards today... I was not sure how responsive the enworld boards would be, so thought posting in both places would get more responses, just in case enworld was still slow/down.

I think Karmic Strike would also allow an extra AoO - one for the movement of charging as normal, then another for the actual attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Large & in Charge: Sure, another aoo as long as the target is moving up to you after that on a subsequent round. If it's the same round somehow, I believe the RAW would not give you an additional AoO. From the link I gave: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." Not per move action, per round.

Karmic Strike would work, sure. There's also Defensive Throw from C.Warrior. If he misses the attack, you can use an AoO to try and trip him.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Now, most of the things discussed so far aren't specifically geared against charging, and may work better against a full attack. One combination to use to really ruin an enemy's charge could be Evasive Reflexes (ToB; 5 ft step instead of take an AoO) + Combat Reflexes (for multiple AoO's) + Hold the Line + have greater reach than the enemy. This would let you take two 5 ft steps before the charger can attack, likely enough to completely sidestep it.

Alternatively, or on top of all of that, there is the level 5 White Raven stance, Press the Advantage, to take 10 ft steps instead of 5 ft steps.

Also worth mentioning even though it's not an AoO usage, is the level 1 Setting Sun counter, Tomoe Nage Counter Charge. Even if you don't usually use Tome of Battle because it's a complicated subsystem, Counter Charge works fairly simply.

[Dannyalcatraz]

And to increase your reach, you can:

1 Use reach weapons (duh!)

2 Use Enlarge Person (duh!)

3 Use Expansion (duh!)

4 Use that spell from the spell compendium that briefly enlarges your weapon.

5 Use Monkey Grip/Powerful build to use oversized weapons (controversial, but with some support)

6 Use the Aberration and Vile Feats that increase your reach (Inhuman Reach(LoM p 180) and Deformity [Tall](HoH p 121))- both of which have prereqs, but both of which give your PC at least +5 Reach.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Large & in Charge: Sure, another aoo as long as the target is moving up to you after that on a subsequent round. If it's the same round somehow, I believe the RAW would not give you an additional AoO. From the link I gave: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." Not per move action, per round.

Karmic Strike would work, sure. There's also Defensive Throw from C.Warrior. If he misses the attack, you can use an AoO to try and trip him.

Large & In Charge stops the victim cold after they are pushed back. So, in order to close into melee range, they would need to move again on their turn, thus provoking another AoO.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Now, most of the things discussed so far aren't specifically geared against charging, and may work better against a full attack. One combination to use to really ruin an enemy's charge could be Evasive Reflexes (ToB; 5 ft step instead of take an AoO) + Combat Reflexes (for multiple AoO's) + Hold the Line + have greater reach than the enemy. This would let you take two 5 ft steps before the charger can attack, likely enough to completely sidestep it.

Alternatively, or on top of all of that, there is the level 5 White Raven stance, Press the Advantage, to take 10 ft steps instead of 5 ft steps.

Also worth mentioning even though it's not an AoO usage, is the level 1 Setting Sun counter, Tomoe Nage Counter Charge. Even if you don't usually use Tome of Battle because it's a complicated subsystem, Counter Charge works fairly simply.

In regards to the White Raven stance, that is one thing I've wondered - why does a size Huge creature that is 20 feet tall, or a size Gargantuan one that is 30 feet tall only get a 5 foot step? Wouldn't their 5 foot step be more like a 10 or 15 foot step? Is keeping everything to 5 foot steps a matter of simplification?

[Elethiomel]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

In regards to the White Raven stance, that is one thing I've wondered - why does a size Huge creature that is 20 feet tall, or a size Gargantuan one that is 30 feet tall only get a 5 foot step? Wouldn't their 5 foot step be more like a 10 or 15 foot step? Is keeping everything to 5 foot steps a matter of simplification?

I think it's an issue of balance. I also think balance is the reason for the low base land speed of larger creature. I also think "step" is a misnomer (for any Medium or Small creature I can hardly see 5 feet being one step, let alone one careful step) .

We tried to introduce step = space in one of the games I played in, and it completely broke the game in the larger creatures' favor. Flanking becomes nigh-impossible, and it completely ruins anyone of 10' reach or below whose main shtick is to stop enemies moving away from them. You never get full attacks and the Large and larger creatures always get full attacks. With the occasional White Raven user it doesn't matter so much, because it's only one fight out of many (and ToB classes aren't dependent on full attacks anyway, provided they're largely single class), but most adventuring parties meet a hell of a lot of Large or larger creatures.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If I were to modify the 5 ft step rules, it would be based on the creature's speed, not size. The level 20 monk would be doing crazy long "steps," not the size Huge giant that despite his size still only plods along at speed 30.

@Large and in charge: No, what I mean is, they would only provoke a second AoO if they tried to move closer to you on following rounds. In the same round, you can NOT provoke more than one AoO from the same person for moving out of his threatened squares. At all. Period. (Barring some feat or class feature, etc... that's a specific exception to that rule, of course)

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

If I were to modify the 5 ft step rules, it would be based on the creature's speed, not size. The level 20 monk would be doing crazy long "steps," not the size Huge giant that despite his size still only plods along at speed 30.

@Large and in charge: No, what I mean is, they would only provoke a second AoO if they tried to move closer to you on following rounds. In the same round, you can NOT provoke more than one AoO from the same person for moving out of his threatened squares. At all. Period. (Barring some feat or class feature, etc... that's a specific exception to that rule, of course)

I agree on just movement, however the AoO from moving is provoked when you leave a threatened square - If you had the ability to attack a large creature from 10 feet away (spell, grenade-like weapon, reach weapon, etc), you could enter the threatened square 10 feet away and not move anymore and not provoke an AoO. Large & In Charge's AoO is provoked when you enter a threatened square.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah, ok. Then you could get 2 in the same round.

[kitsune9]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

I just wanted to clarify on this. In the Rules Compendium, if says you can take multiple AoOs against one opponent if they provoke more than one.

From the Rules Compendium on Multiple Attacks of Opportunity, page 19: "Some abilities allow you to make more than one AoO per round... if the same opponent provokes two AoOs from you, however, you could make two separate AoOs. Each provoking act represents a different opportunity. "

So, in thinking that if your standard size Medium PC charged a size Huge bad guy with a 15 foot reach, Combat Reflexes and a Dex of at least 12, the bad guy would get one AoO when the PC closes from 15 feet to 10, and then another when the PC closes from 10 feet to 5.

However, in this WotC article from 2004:
"Note that moving out of more than one threatened square during a turn counts as only one "opportunity" for the moving creature's foes (see page 138 in the Player's Handbook). If the character in the previous example moved and left three (or more) squares that you threaten and did nothing else that provokes attacks of opportunity from you, you'd get only one attack of opportunity against him. This seems to indicate this is not the case.

Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity (Part Two)

so, none of my huge bad guys can get more than 1 AoO vs a charging PC? Any feats that would allow a huge or bigger bad guys to get multiple AoOs vs a charger?

Thanks

As with the feats that others have mentioned if you two different things, you draw multiple AoO such as moving into and out of a threatened square and drinking a potion.

[Voadam]

Hold the Lineis also in the divine section of the srd on The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org.

Hold The Line [General]
Prerequisites
Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +2.

Benefit
You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten. Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved.

Normal
You only get an attack of opportunity against a character that exits a square you threaten.