Does damage from a bane weapon get increased on a crit?

[NewJeffCT]

If my bad guy has an elf-bane weapon and scores a crit on the PC elf with a bane weapon, does the bane damage also get multiplied?

For example, bad guy has a +3 longsword and a +4 Strength bonus. On a regular hit to the elf, the bad guy does d8+7 (+2d6 for it being a being a bane weapon). Meaning, 10-27 points on a regular hit.

If the bad guy scores a crit and confirms, he would do 2d8+14, but would the bane damage be +2d6 or +4d6? I would say the bane damage is doubled because it is part of the weapon, but I'm not sure by any means.

I was thinking about this in relation to Thanee's thread on a duskblade's arcane channeling.

Thanks

[Nebten]

No sir. Just like you don't multiply sneak attack, elemental damage, holy damage, etc on critical roles.

So with your example it would be: 1d8+7+2d6
Critical Hits

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Nebten

No sir. Just like you don't multiply sneak attack, elemental damage, holy damage, etc on critical roles.

So with your example it would be: 1d8+7+2d6
Critical Hits

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Thanks - that would also apply to hellfire damage from a hellfire warlock's damage as well, it seems. Or, a spell-like ability that requires a ranged touch attack.

Now for a slightly different question... if the warlock has the ability to maximize or empower his spell-like ability, and also a feat like mortalbane that adds another 2d6 or an item like a Chausable of Fell Power that does similar, do those numbers get empowered/maximized as well?

[irdeggman]

Extra text from the Rules Compendium (pg 40) which might help

Extra damage beyond a weapon's normal damage, such as precision damage abilities or the flaming property of a flaming sword, isn't multiplied when you score a critical hit.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Bane also gives an extra +2 enhancement bonus, so the extra damage is actually +2+2d6. So on a crit, the +2 would multiply (but not the 2d6).

And unless that RC quote is taken out of a larger context...wow that confuses things more! If that is all it says on the matter, then I guess PA damage, smite attacks, etc... don't multiply on a crit, either. I've never played it that way, would never want to play it that way, and am pretty sure that's never been the case. *shrug* Not like I'd care if I was using a houserule anyway.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

Bane also gives an extra +2 enhancement bonus, so the extra damage is actually +2+2d6. So on a crit, the +2 would multiply (but not the 2d6).

And unless that RC quote is taken out of a larger context...wow that confuses things more! If that is all it says on the matter, then I guess PA damage, smite attacks, etc... don't multiply on a crit, either. I've never played it that way, would never want to play it that way, and am pretty sure that's never been the case. *shrug* Not like I'd care if I was using a houserule anyway.

Not all that different than the PHB or the SRD (just slightly "cleaner" language.

SRD

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

PHB (pg 140

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weaon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

[Nebten]

The key words there are "damage dice." If you are falling back on Rules Compendium (p. 40), its state that damage bonuses does multiply. These bonuses come from to magic items, PA, smite etc. So you've been doing it the right way all along.

CRITICAL HIT RESULTS

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual
bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range
for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Its the paragraph after this that states extra damage isn't rolled

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by Nebten

The key words there are "damage dice." If you are falling back on Rules Compendium (p. 40), its state that damage bonuses does multiply. These bonuses come from to magic items, PA, smite etc. So you've been doing it the right way all along.

CRITICAL HIT RESULTS

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual
bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range
for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Its the paragraph after this that states extra damage isn't rolled

And yet the key words "damage dice" are not mentioned in the PHB nor in the Rules Compendium, only in the SRD.

When you calculate the damage from a critical hit you always roll extra damage dice for the weapon - that is if a weapon does 1d8 on a confirmed critical it does 2d8 it is not the original roll x2 (which was a common misconception in 3.0 when it first came out).

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean when you say the part about damage above the normal weapon damage is in a subsequent paragraph - does that mean that the you are saying that rule is to be ignored?

Note that in the PHB, even though it is a subsequent paragraph it is premised by "Exception:" - which to me means it is the exception to the "normal" rule, which is that all applicable modifiers are applied to the damage.

I read the part of "not part of weapon's normal damage" meaning not damage associated with the weapon itself (and not a special ability) - that is Str damage (or Dex or Int depending on feats, class abilities, etc.) or enhancement bonuses are part of the weapon's damge itself. Smite, SA, etc. are not.

When you say PA does that refer to Precision Attack? If so that is specifically called out as not applicable.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Nebten

The key words there are "damage dice." If you are falling back on Rules Compendium (p. 40), its state that damage bonuses does multiply. These bonuses come from to magic items, PA, smite etc. So you've been doing it the right way all along.

So, that would mean bonus damage from a magic item (Chausable of Fell Power for a warlock) is doubled on a crit? Is PA Power Attack or Precision Attack? I had always played that damage from Power Attack is doubled on a crit, though that would get rather nasty if the Power Attacker did his crit on a charge and also had Leap Attack that doubles the damage from a Power Attack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

PA = Power Attack. I've never even heard the term "precision attack" before, just "precision damage."

And yes, I've always played it that all non-dice damage multiplies on a crit, whether it's PA (power attack), smite, weapon enhancement, weapon specialization feat, favored enemy...

If you think PA gets pretty nasty, you could always make a specific exception for that damage, I guess. Note the attack penalty does hurt the chances of confirming, so there's at least a "trade-off." None of the other non-dice added damage seems so bad to allow on a crit, and my groups have done so without issue since 3.0 first came out.

Irdeggman, you're saying this isn't RAW and in fact only the weapon (and enhancement bonus?) gets multiplied on a crit?

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

PA = Power Attack. I've never even heard the term "precision attack" before, just "precision damage."

And yes, I've always played it that all non-dice damage multiplies on a crit, whether it's PA (power attack), smite, weapon enhancement, weapon specialization feat, favored enemy...

If you think PA gets pretty nasty, you could always make a specific exception for that damage, I guess. Note the attack penalty does hurt the chances of confirming, so there's at least a "trade-off." None of the other non-dice added damage seems so bad to allow on a crit, and my groups have done so without issue since 3.0 first came out.

Irdeggman, you're saying this isn't RAW and in fact only the weapon (and enhancement bonus?) gets multiplied on a crit?

I'm not too worried about power attack getting nasty, as most of my group does not use Power Attack - though, I'm not sure if our goliath barbarian does or not? However, if the dwarf fighter in our party reads this thread, he might decide to next time out...

edited to add - Power Attack can get nasty enough without being multiplied on a crit.
Frenzied Berserker with Supreme Power Attack takes a -10 penalty on his "to hit" roll and gets +40 to damage with a 2-handed weapon. Couple that with the Leap Attack feat that doubles damage on a charge & jump of at least 10 feet, and you are looking at +80 points of damage just from the PA. Then, you add in weapon damage (2d6 for a 2 handed sword), strength damage (another at least +10) , magic damage, etc.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

PA = Power Attack. I've never even heard the term "precision attack" before, just "precision damage."

Ahh, I had a brain skip and should have made the connection. . .

Irdeggman, you're saying this isn't RAW and in fact only the weapon (and enhancement bonus?) gets multiplied on a crit?

I'm saying the RAW says what it says and the specific text doesn't specify "extra damage dice".

A strict reading could be that any extra damage above the weapon's normal damage is never multiplied. This could tecnically include any enhancement bonuses since they aren't "normal damage" but are a "bonus" as in "enhancement bonus" and they don't stack with other enhancement bonuses.

I wouldn't go that way myself, I would go with enhancement bonus is actually part of the weapon's new normal damage and I would allow any damage from feats (like PA) to apply but not special abilities (like smite, precision damage, etc.)

But a strict RAW reading. . . . .