Best 9th level clerical spells for two evil clerics

[NewJeffCT]

One is a lawful evil cleric with the domains of Domination and Tyranny, so they get Monstrous Thrall or Dominate Monster as 9th level domain spells. Which non domain spells should this cleric take up against my PCs? Or, do I just go with an extra domain spell? Implosion maybe? Or, Mass Heal to help out her allies? Something else maybe? (There does not seem to be a Mass Harm, though, which would have been perfect...)

The other cleric is a N/E cleric with the domains of Strength and Hatred. Hatred gives him Wail of the Banshee as a domain spell, while Strength gives him Bigby's Crushing Hand as a domain spell. What would be good for him?

[frankthedm]

Mass Heal {implosion takes concentration and has short range]

Bigby's {Clerics have plenty of fort saves to sling already]

[NewJeffCT]

I was leaning towards Mass Heal - just when you think you've got a few of the bad guys' minions on the ropes with 100-150 of damage to the evil drow duskblade and a few others, along comes Mass Heal and you're back where you started... a bit frustrating for the PCs.

[Runestar]

Implosion is actually a fairly strong spell, IMO. It ignores protective spells such as death ward (in fact, it is fairly hard to defend against since it does not have any descriptors). Plus, if you use that feat which lets you maintain concentration as a move or swift action, this frees up your standard action to do other stuff like activate a staff or scroll (I don't think you can cast other spells, can you?).

Personally, I would go with chained greater dispel magic, but only if the party relies heavily on buffs. You may want to use the remaining spells on buffs, like chained greater magic weapon/magic vestments on every's eq, unholy aura, heroes' feast and maybe greater spell immunity.

[Shin Okada]

I vote for Bigby's, Implosion, Mass Heal & Miracle. Mind affecting compulsion spells are countered very easily. And while Wail of the Banshee is good, PCs tend to have really good Fort save and/or Deathward.

Bigy's spells are very good. And as already mentioned, Implosion is good as it is not a Death effect spell though it is a save or die spell. Mass Heal is always good, especially when 2 can cast it. And having a Miracle is good as PCs may do something a DM is not expecting.

Regardind de-buff, I will let them prepare Chain Dispel (8th-level spell) in PHB 2. This is one of the best de-buff spell, especially if those evil clerics can, somehow, have caster level 21+ (Strands of Prayer Beads (Karma), Divine Spell Power, etc.).

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Shin Okada

I vote for Bigby's, Implosion, Mass Heal & Miracle. Mind affecting compulsion spells are countered very easily. And while Wail of the Banshee is good, PCs tend to have really good Fort save and/or Deathward.

Bigy's spells are very good. And as already mentioned, Implosion is good as it is not a Death effect spell though it is a save or die spell. Mass Heal is always good, especially when 2 can cast it. And having a Miracle is good as PCs may do something a DM is not expecting.

Regardind de-buff, I will let them prepare Chain Dispel (8th-level spell) in PHB 2. This is one of the best de-buff spell, especially if those evil clerics can, somehow, have caster level 21+ (Strands of Prayer Beads (Karma), Divine Spell Power, etc.).

I've never really used the Bigby's hand spells since I tried them in 1E days back in the late 70s/early 80s. The Crushing Hand can basically grapple & crush one opponent (likely a spellcaster), taking them out of combat for at least a round or two without the caster needing to concentrate, if I'm not mistaken.

If the sorcerer is grappled, he can make a DC:25 concentration check (fairly easy for a level 16/17 caster) and Dimension Door away. Same with the psion. And, at AC:20, it's pretty easy to hit and destroy in a round for a higher level party as well.

Any suggested uses for it? The party has three "casters" - a cleric, a psion and a sorcerer. It has 2 tanks in a dwarf fighter and a goliath barbarian, and it has two finesse types in a rogue and a fighter/paladin/champion of Corellon.

[Shin Okada]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

If the sorcerer is grappled, he can make a DC:25 concentration check (fairly easy for a level 16/17 caster) and Dimension Door away. Same with the psion.

Right. But that will not end the spell. Thus, unless the grappled caster goes really far away, the hand continue to attack him. Or, the cleric can turn it to another PC with a move action.

And, at AC:20, it's pretty easy to hit and destroy in a round for a higher level party as well..

Yep. But it will cost them at least one cast of above med-level spell (targeted Greater Dispel Magic?), or possibly one round worth of attacks or maybe more (for melee warriors). The hand is a spell effect and thus many of the additional damages don't work on it. And the grappled character must use light weapons and such.

Any suggested uses for it? The party has three "casters" - a cleric, a psion and a sorcerer. It has 2 tanks in a dwarf fighter and a goliath barbarian, and it has two finesse types in a rogue and a fighter/paladin/champion of Corellon.

Actually, Bigby's Crushing Hand tend to have much bigger grapple check bonus comparing to that of most of the melee PCs in the appropriate level. And that bonus is usually much higher than Escape Artist check modifier of PCs, too. The bonus is Caster Level + Wis mod + 16. So, the spell is not just effective against casters but also against most melee PCs. Those Finesse type combatants will be the easiest targets, I guess.

Also, you will likely to include a lot of minions in the encoutner, too. Right? A grappled character lose dexterity bonus to one's AC. That is a good chance for minion Rogues and Blackguards to make a nasty sneak attack.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Shin Okada

Right. But that will not end the spell. Thus, unless the grappled caster goes really far away, the hand continue to attack him. Or, the cleric can turn it to another PC with a move action.


Actually, Bigby's Crushing Hand tend to have much bigger grapple check bonus comparing to that of most of the melee PCs in the appropriate level. And that bonus is usually much higher than Escape Artist check modifier of PCs, too. The bonus is Caster Level + Wis mod + 16. So, the spell is not just effective against casters but also against most melee PCs. Those Finesse type combatants will be the easiest targets, I guess.

Also, you will likely to include a lot of minions in the encoutner, too. Right? A grappled character lose dexterity bonus to one's AC. That is a good chance for minion Rogues and Blackguards to make a nasty sneak attack.

Thanks - I don't really see a flight speed in the Bigby's Hand spells. If said caster DD'd 100 feet away, does the hand have to take a round or two rounds or three to attack again?

And, yes, the hand's grapple check is pretty high - a minimum of +37 (17 for the lowest level able to cast it, 4 for a min wisdom, 12 for Str and 4 for size)
so, having the hand work in conjunction with a pair of rogues would be pretty good.

[Bungus]

If the bad guys know where the PCs are - hit them with Storm of Vengeance and let it run its course. Potential to deafen anybody within the storm, 6 lightning bolts that each do 10d6 damage, acid rain, 5d6 of hailstones, plus they need to make a fairly high concentration check to cast a decent spell (Min DC is 23 + spell level, but most likely it would be 25-27 plus spell level if the caster had a wisdom over 18 and any sort of feat/ability to increase save DC.) Then, when that is done and they're healing, come back and do a Chain Dispel as an 8th level spell.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Bungus

If the bad guys know where the PCs are - hit them with Storm of Vengeance and let it run its course. Potential to deafen anybody within the storm, 6 lightning bolts that each do 10d6 damage, acid rain, 5d6 of hailstones, plus they need to make a fairly high concentration check to cast a decent spell (Min DC is 23 + spell level, but most likely it would be 25-27 plus spell level if the caster had a wisdom over 18 and any sort of feat/ability to increase save DC.) Then, when that is done and they're healing, come back and do a Chain Dispel as an 8th level spell.

Not a big fan of storm of vengeance, but the drow do not know the PCs are there - however, they are going to be attacking the village anyhow, so it's not a bad idea as a means of just wiping out most of its inhabitants.

[AuraSeer]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

Thanks - I don't really see a flight speed in the Bigby's Hand spells. If said caster DD'd 100 feet away, does the hand have to take a round or two rounds or three to attack again?

The hand moves instantaneously, ignoring gravity. Note the description of interposing hand, which manages to interpose "regardless of how the opponent tries to get around it." This is made even clearer in the description of foreceful hand, which explicitly "has no speed limit," and will "instantly reposition itself" when necessary. The later hand spells are upgrades of IH and FH, and so share the same basic qualities.

That means if the target DDoors himself to another point within range, the hand will immediately vanish and reappear right next to him, all set to attack again on its next turn.

It's not one hundred percent clear what happens if the target leaves range. My interpretation is that it stlil interposes itself, moving to the limit of range as close as possible to the target. Obviously it can't attack from there, but since it's still in the way I allow it to grant a smaller cover bonus.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by AuraSeer

The hand moves instantaneously, ignoring gravity. Note the description of interposing hand, which manages to interpose "regardless of how the opponent tries to get around it." This is made even clearer in the description of foreceful hand, which explicitly "has no speed limit," and will "instantly reposition itself" when necessary. The later hand spells are upgrades of IH and FH, and so share the same basic qualities.

That means if the target DDoors himself to another point within range, the hand will immediately vanish and reappear right next to him, all set to attack again on its next turn.

It's not one hundred percent clear what happens if the target leaves range. My interpretation is that it stlil interposes itself, moving to the limit of range as close as possible to the target. Obviously it can't attack from there, but since it's still in the way I allow it to grant a smaller cover bonus.

Thanks - that certainly makes the spell a lot more appealing!

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by AuraSeer

The hand moves instantaneously, ignoring gravity. Note the description of interposing hand, which manages to interpose "regardless of how the opponent tries to get around it." This is made even clearer in the description of foreceful hand, which explicitly "has no speed limit," and will "instantly reposition itself" when necessary. The later hand spells are upgrades of IH and FH, and so share the same basic qualities.

That means if the target DDoors himself to another point within range, the hand will immediately vanish and reappear right next to him, all set to attack again on its next turn.

It's not one hundred percent clear what happens if the target leaves range. My interpretation is that it stlil interposes itself, moving to the limit of range as close as possible to the target. Obviously it can't attack from there, but since it's still in the way I allow it to grant a smaller cover bonus.

In doing a bit more research, it says that the level 8 spell - Bigby's Clenched Fist - can only move 60 feet. So, I think it would not be able to follow somebody that moved 80-100 feet away.

So, I'm inclined not to use the hand spells, as it seems way underpowered to me?

For a level 18 cleric, which damage spell do you choose?
1) Crushing Hand - 2d6+12 to one opponent, though it can be continuous.

2) Level 8 Firestorm and do 18d6 fire damage to 36 ten foot cubes of shapeable area?

3) Level 7 Radiant Assault and do 15d6 untyped damage that also will daze or dazzle foes?

I think #2 or #3 seem superior in most situations.

[Shin Okada]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

In doing a bit more research, it says that the level 8 spell - Bigby's Clenched Fist - can only move 60 feet. So, I think it would not be able to follow somebody that moved 80-100 feet away.

Actually, Bigby's Crushing Hand does not refer to Bigby's Clenched Fist. It refers only to Bigby's Interposing Hand, Grasping Hand & Forceful Hand. All of those 3 spells does not say the movement of the hand is restricted in some way, nor have fixed speed. So I say it can attack the target as long as the target is within the spell's Range.

Also, Bigby's Crushing Hand says "it can bull rush an opponent as Bigby's Forceful Hand does" and Bigby's Forceful Hand says "The hand always move with the opponent to push that target back the possible full distance allowed, and it has no speed limit." So it is clear that at least for this purpose, Bigby's Crushing Hand can move without no speed limit.

For a level 18 cleric, which damage spell do you choose?
1) Crushing Hand - 2d6+12 to one opponent, though it can be continuous.

2) Level 8 Firestorm and do 18d6 fire damage to 36 ten foot cubes of shapeable area?

3) Level 7 Radiant Assault and do 15d6 untyped damage that also will daze or dazzle foes?

I think #2 or #3 seem superior in most situations.

Crushing Hand is not a true damage spell. It is more like a hold spell without spell. And most effective against melee/ranged warriors who can do nothing while grappled. Spellcasters tend to teleport away from it. I like the spell a lot. But not for dealing damage.

Fire Storm is not bad. But there are two problems. It inflicts Fire damages, one of the most popular energy type which PCs tend to have some protection against. The second one is more serious problem. That has 1-round casting time.

For inflicting damage, Radiant Assault is one of my favorite. Untyped damage, will save, wonderful sub-effect. Your cleric can empower it if you want.

It is not a damage spell but Energy Drain is another good offensive spell. Especially against spellcasters.

7th-level spell Slime Wave (Spell Compendium) is another good offensive spell for a Cleric. 1d6 Con damage per round could be devastating.

[NewJeffCT]

Originally Posted by Shin Okada

Crushing Hand is not a true damage spell. It is more like a hold spell without spell. And most effective against melee/ranged warriors who can do nothing while grappled. Spellcasters tend to teleport away from it. I like the spell a lot. But not for dealing damage.

Fire Storm is not bad. But there are two problems. It inflicts Fire damages, one of the most popular energy type which PCs tend to have some protection against. The second one is more serious problem. That has 1-round casting time.

For inflicting damage, Radiant Assault is one of my favorite. Untyped damage, will save, wonderful sub-effect. Your cleric can empower it if you want.

It is not a damage spell but Energy Drain is another good offensive spell. Especially against spellcasters.

7th-level spell Slime Wave (Spell Compendium) is another good offensive spell for a Cleric. 1d6 Con damage per round could be devastating.

good suggestion - maybe have it grapple the party rogue or the elf fighter/paladin of freedom/champion of corellon instead of one of the tanks, who might be able to outgrapple it. Then, have a couple of rogues flank the grappled PC and get in sneak attack damage since you lose your Dex bonus if you're grappled.

[AuraSeer]

Originally Posted by NewJeffCT

In doing a bit more research, it says that the level 8 spell - Bigby's Clenched Fist - can only move 60 feet. So, I think it would not be able to follow somebody that moved 80-100 feet away.

The spell says it can "move as far as 60 feet and attack in the same round." I read that as a limitation only on its attack. It can still move instantaneously like the other spells, because it shares their powers, but if it moves more than 60' in a given round it cannot also attack that round.

Also, Shin Okada is correct that the hands are not damage spells. They're for battlefield control. The grasping hand is a good way to shut down an enemy caster, sniper, or anyone else who's not great at grapple checks.

Shutdown can be superior to straight damage because it takes a character out of action immediately. If your uber-powerful damage storm doesn't kill the target right off, the other side still has full combat effectiveness, and you've just made yourself a big target. Then if you're unlucky, they can outdamage you, which means you'll die first. By contrast, taking one character out of action immediately cuts part of the enemy's attack abilities, and lets you concentrate your firepower on their remaining forces.

A grasped caster must either spend an attack spell to kill the hand, spend an escape spell to get loose, or else resign himself to casting only spells without somatic components. A grasped noncaster must either spend most of his turns repeatedly escaping the grapple, or else poke the hand to death with a light weapon.

Also note the hand spells have no saving throw, so they work even on that pesky cleric who saves against your other spells on a 2.

Crushing hand is really just grasping hand with an extra bonus. You still don't primarily cast it for the damage; it's just nice to have your battlefield control also chip away some hit points

[NewJeffCT]

good points AuraSeer... and, the PCs have been making almost all their saves against my control spells like Greater Command, Mass Hold Person, etc. Oddly, the party dwarf fighter made his saves vs those spells, then failed his Fort save against the horned devil's stunning effect from its spiked chain.