First, a character is not flat-footed outside of combat. Flat-footed is defined in terms of being in combat, i.e., in initiative. No combat, no initiative, no flat-footed. It's irrelevant that feather fall is an immediate action, outside of combat, just as it's irrelevant that stone shape is a standard action, outside of combat. Outside of combat, feather fall is just a spell you cast to slow a fall.
I don't think so.
What is your AC outside of combat?
Do you have full AC and all of Dex bonus to it up until you roll for initiative and then suddenly lose it until your turn in the initiative order?
I do think that turns and rounds do not exist outside of combat though.
It has to be understood that the D&D combat system is very vague in its design and so it doesn't always make sense or follow a totally "logical" path.
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Second, if you are in combat and flat-footed, I don't understand why it's so unthinkable that someone deliberately trying to make a wizard's teammate fall might actually succeed in doing so. Why is it so difficult to believe that a wizard could be caught gawking by the sudden eruption of combat?
Second, if you are in combat and flat-footed, I don't understand why it's so unthinkable that someone deliberately trying to make a wizard's teammate fall might actually succeed in doing so. Why is it so difficult to believe that a wizard could be caught gawking by the sudden eruption of combat?
I see the events (accidental fall, enemy pushes you flat-flooted) as equally unexpected, surprising, and gawk-producing. The only difference is that one is defined as "combat" and the other is not. I see no reason why that difference should dictate a different result. Thus, I see the rule as producing inconsistent results (in the special case of feather fall).
I see the events (accidental fall, enemy pushes you flat-flooted) as equally unexpected, surprising, and gawk-producing. The only difference is that one is defined as "combat" and the other is not. I see no reason why that difference should dictate a different result. Thus, I see the rule as producing inconsistent results (in the special case of feather fall).
The difference is that things that happen to you outside of combat usually occur on your movement, when it might be argued you are in a status that is the moral equivalent of on your initiative. We are on fuzzy ground here.
My vote would be that specific text of the spell overrides the general rule. That does imply that if you cast Feather Fall to save your neck when surprised, you are denied a Swift Action during you upcoming initiative. I think this is consistent with the intent of both the spell text and the rule change.
However, those who assert an ambush is a different things are not being ridiculous. I just do not think such would be the best way to resovle this ambiguity.
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Your AC if you spring a trap (for example) outside of combat is your full AC. Because -- say it with me -- there's no flat-footed outside of combat. Flat-footedness is defined by intiaitive order.
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I see the events (accidental fall, enemy pushes you flat-flooted) as equally unexpected, surprising, and gawk-producing.
That's absolutely fine, but none of those things are governed by the rules. Flat-footed is. If you choose to view things as "equally unexpected," again that's fine, but it doesn't match the rules.
So why not change how you choose to view things, so as to match the rules?
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Second, if you are in combat and flat-footed, I don't understand why it's so unthinkable that someone deliberately trying to make a wizard's teammate fall might actually succeed in doing so. Why is it so difficult to believe that a wizard could be caught gawking by the sudden eruption of combat?
I don't think this is hard to believe at all. However, I believe it is the complete opposite of the original intention of Feather Fall. FF was originally written to specifically be castable at any time - even if the wizard is caught completely off guard. Changing FF to an immediate action changes this, effectively changing the nature and inherent design of the spell.
I don't think that the change is necessarily a good one or a bad one. I just think it's important to notice when these type of changes happen.
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I don't think this is hard to believe at all. However, I believe it is the complete opposite of the original intention of Feather Fall. FF was originally written to specifically be castable at any time - even if the wizard is caught completely off guard. Changing FF to an immediate action changes this, effectively changing the nature and inherent design of the spell.
I disagree. Feather fall works just like it always has ... with the single exception of the wizard being unable to save someone else who is falling as a result of still another someone's combat action. And even then, that's only true when the wizard is flat-footed.
That's "changing the nature and inherent design of the spell"? That's "the complete opposite of the original intention" of the spell? Seriously? That tiny, tiny fraction of the cases to use feather fall?
If you really think so, okay. But I sure don't. As far as I can tell, feather fall works perfectly well and is all but identical to how it's always been.
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However, the Rules Compendium specifically cites Feather Fall as an example of moving from a Free Action to an Immediate Action.
It can be any kind of action. The spell states you can cast it any time. The only consequence of it being an immediate action is that you cannot then make another immediate action.
Your AC if you spring a trap (for example) outside of combat is your full AC. Because -- say it with me -- there's no flat-footed outside of combat. Flat-footedness is defined by intiaitive order.
So by this logic you have full AC until you start combat and then suddenly you lose your Dex Bonus until it is your turn in the initiative order.
Now traps either make attack rolls (ranged or melee), cause a saving throw (like spells) or are never miss.
Those that make attack rolls must take advantage of the "surprise" round - because - say it with me - you can't make an attack roll unless you are in a combat situation. Surprise counting as the pre-round combat situation.
Now per the Rules Compendium pg 7
under Action types
"During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. .. . ."
Action types do not exist outside of the rounds and rounds only refer to combat rounds.
So. . .using a strict reading of the RAW you can never cast a spell outside of combat since they take an action type, which doesn't exist outside of combat - and you are not entitled to until it is your turn in the initiative order.
Now some "free" actions, like talking specifically state that you can do them at any time (so it is not dependent on being in a round situation).
It can be any kind of action. The spell states you can cast it any time. The only consequence of it being an immediate action is that you cannot then make another immediate action.
If you change it back to a free action, then you're overriding the Rules Compendium that cites Feather Fall as an example of now being an Immediate Action.
As I stated above, an Immediate Action is listed in the Rules Compendium as not being able to be used when flat-footed (i.e., before your first turn in combat) - other than that, it can be used at any time.
Feather Fall had been played since 1E days as a Free Action, so it seemed odd to me that it was changed in the later days of 3.5 to an Immediate Action.
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So by this logic you have full AC until you start combat and then suddenly you lose your Dex Bonus until it is your turn in the initiative order.
Yes.
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Those that make attack rolls must take advantage of the "surprise" round - because - say it with me - you can't make an attack roll unless you are in a combat situation.
Where's the rule? There are plenty of situations in which one makes an attack roll outside of combat.
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Originally Posted by irdeggman
Now per the Rules Compendium pg 7
under Action types
"During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. .. . ."
Action types do not exist outside of the rounds and rounds only refer to combat rounds.
This is telling you what you can do during combat, where actions are much more strictly controlled (because it matters what order things go in). It's not, logically or reasonably, saying a thing about what you can't do outside of combat, where action resolution is much looser.
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Last edited by Jeff Wilder; 4th November 2009 at 08:24 PM..
Where's the rule? There are plenty of situations in which one makes an attack roll outside of combat.
Please give me an example of one when you are not in a "round" system - which does not exist outside of combat.
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This is telling you what you can do during combat, where actions are much more strictly controlled (because it matters what order things go in). It's not, logically or reasonably, saying a thing about what you can't do outside of combat, where action resolution is much looser.
Nope. Rules Compendium defines actions and when they can be done - nothing for outside of combat.
Text in RC is "Action Types" it then says when you can perform them "During a normal round. . . ."
It does not state these action can be done "outside of combat", now if a specific action said it could (like free action "talking") then that would override the base rule for that case.
Please give me an example of one when you are not in a "round" system - which does not exist outside of combat.
Shooting an arrow at a target during the competition in a tourney. There are plenty of examples.
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Nope. Rules Compendium defines actions and when they can be done - nothing for outside of combat.
Text in RC is "Action Types" it then says when you can perform them "During a normal round. . . ."
Once again, the rules say what you can do "during a normal round;" they (rightly) are not so restrictive outside combat.
Given that your insistence on inventing non-existent restrictions on out-of-combat action results in an absurdity -- namely, being unable to cast spells out of combat -- why do you insist on doing it? It's quite odd.
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If you change it back to a free action, then you're overriding the Rules Compendium that cites Feather Fall as an example of now being an Immediate Action.
As I stated above, an Immediate Action is listed in the Rules Compendium as not being able to be used when flat-footed (i.e., before your first turn in combat) - other than that, it can be used at any time.
Feather Fall had been played since 1E days as a Free Action, so it seemed odd to me that it was changed in the later days of 3.5 to an Immediate Action.
Feather fall is an immediate action that differs from other immediate actions in that it can be used flat-footed. There is only a contradiction if you insist feather fall cannot have special rules listed in its spell description.
Shooting an arrow at a target during the competition in a tourney. There are plenty of examples.
Once again, the rules say what you can do "during a normal round;" they (rightly) are not so restrictive outside combat.
Given that your insistence on inventing non-existent restrictions on out-of-combat action results in an absurdity -- namely, being unable to cast spells out of combat -- why do you insist on doing it? It's quite odd.
Let's see - I didn't insist that you are not flat footed outside of combat. When the text states that you are until your first turn in the initiative order. I did come up with how to apply existing rules (and justification) for how to apply feather fall when you fall due to a trap outside of combat - or before your turn in the initiative order.
Now the statement that the text of feather fall allows you to use even when it is not your turn is also within the existing rule structure in that specific text overrules general one. So even after the spell errata to make feather fall an immediate action that specific spell description text still can apply to supecede the immediate action restriction, again within the existing rules structure.
As far as tourneys go - do you not use a round structure to cover those? Isn't there initiative involved?
Combat system structure is supposed to apply to all types of encounters not just those involving combat - so IMO your single example of making an attack roll outside of combat misses the mark since the example is still within a combat round structure.
Now the DMG on page 25 does talk about combat actions outside of combat. But it does state that "As a general rule, combat actions should only be performed in combat - when you are keeping track of rounds and the players are acting in initiative order."
Basically this says that the combat structure does not only apply to strictly combat situations but to anytime where you are following initiative order and keeping rounds.
Now lets try looking at how to handle things outside of combat differently.
Assuming (not that I necessarily agree with this assumption) that flat-footed applies only during the initial round of combat. You should still not be allowed to have your Dex bonus to AC since per (PHB pg 8) "Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack"
PHB pg 134
"An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round."
So if attacked by a trap your AC should depend on whether or not you are aware of the trap or not. If you are not aware then you should not be able to apply your Dex Bonus (consider it denied, so that Dodge bonuses do not apply either).
The DM can start an encounter whenever he wishes to. Excuse me, the DM determines when an encounter begins (DMG pg 22).
All of my statemets are base on RAW and applying the RAW to similar situations in a consistent manner (as allowed by and encouraged by the DMG)
So by this logic you have full AC until you start combat and then suddenly you lose your Dex Bonus until it is your turn in the initiative order.
Now traps either make attack rolls (ranged or melee), cause a saving throw (like spells) or are never miss.
Those that make attack rolls must take advantage of the "surprise" round - because - say it with me - you can't make an attack roll unless you are in a combat situation. Surprise counting as the pre-round combat situation.
This renders the 3rd level rogue's trap sense ability useless, since it is a dodge bonus, lost while flat-footed.
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This renders the 3rd level rogue's trap sense ability useless, since it is a dodge bonus, lost while flat-footed.
Only if they trade away Uncanny Dodge.
Dodge bonuses are lost when you're denied Dex bonus to AC, not when you are flat-footed (PHB p. 136). Rogues get their Dex bonus to AC even while flat-footed due to Uncanny Dodge.
This is not to be taken as an argument supporting either side of the "flat-footed always outside of combat?" debate.
A 3rd level rogue doesn't have Uncanny Dodge. As Michael Silverbane pointed out, ruling that someone is flat-footed outside of combat -- when the rules give a very specific definition and very specific timing of flat-footed, which is "only in combat" -- makes the Trap Sense ability useless for 3rd-level rogues.
__________________ Jeff Wilder, San Francisco Bay Area If your sig is longer than your posts, your sig is too
long. Nobody reads it, they just get annoyed by it. And if you bore me, you lose your soul to me. - Belly
A 3rd level rogue doesn't have Uncanny Dodge. As Michael Silverbane pointed out, ruling that someone is flat-footed outside of combat -- when the rules give a very specific definition and very specific timing of flat-footed, which is "only in combat" -- makes the Trap Sense ability useless for 3rd-level rogues.
Not really.
It would become useless if the rogue was "surprised" by the trap.
If the rogue was searching or attempting to disable the trap then in no way shape or form should they be considered "flat-footed" since they are performing actions that would put them into a round style of system.
Once in a round system then initiative flows properly.
It would become useless if the rogue was "surprised" by the trap.
I guess it'd be possible to invent rules for that, too, sure.
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