Conjuror advice

[Theroc]

Alright, this is somewhat a theoretical exercise.

I'm creating a character for Living Enworld, and want to try the "Learner" PrC that someone had created. It will be quite a long time until I get there, as we start at level 1, but I'd like to try to plot out a relatively speedy way to reach the requirements.

These requirements are:

Originally Posted by Learner PrC Requirements

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become a learner, a character must fulfill the following requirements.
BAB: +4.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 6 ranks.
Feats: Endurance.
Spells: Able to spontaneously cast at least 3rd-level arcane spells.

As a note, LEW has a feat which allows you to spontaneously cast a spell with which you have spell mastery. So, I'd also need to spend 2 feats after I achieve 3rd level spellcasting.

The concept of the character is a hands-on researcher of monsters, to an extent. Not quite totally the 'genius laboratory' type, but one who observes things and is fascinated with monsters, so a focus on summoning.

Does anyone have any recommended paths to minimize the loss of spellcasting progression? ANything in the PHB or DMG is allowed, plus anything seen in the approved rules for LEW found here: Rules and Mechanics

Any help or advice minimizing the number of levels needed to reach those requirements would be much appreciated.

[Runestar]

Very odd prc - requires spellcasting, but does not advance it.

Can't you use the spontaneous divination variant from complete divine? You lose your 5th lv wiz bonus feat, but gain the ability to spontaneously cast any divination spell you know. So that should more than take care of the prereq.

The bab requirement is odd. Maybe wiz6/fighter1?

Battlesorc6 would meet the bab and spellcasting requirements at 6th lv, but you will need to "waste" a feat on education to somehow get knowledge: nature as a class skill.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Runestar

Very odd prc - requires spellcasting, but does not advance it.

Can't you use the spontaneous divination variant from complete divine? You lose your 5th lv wiz bonus feat, but gain the ability to spontaneously cast any divination spell you know. So that should more than take care of the prereq.

The bab requirement is odd. Maybe wiz6/fighter1?

Battlesorc6 would meet the bab and spellcasting requirements at 6th lv, but you will need to "waste" a feat on education to somehow get knowledge: nature as a class skill.

RE: Spontaneous Divination Variant
Nope, I cannot use any material from Complete Divine. It is not in the PHB or the DMG, nor is it among the explicitly approved material in the link I provided, so it is not an option.

Battle Sorcerer is also not approved.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Possible Combos

SpecWiz: Conjuror 5/Brb or Ftr or Pal or Rgr 2
Sorc 6/Rgr 1
Bard (any) 7

[frankthedm]

"Do not call up that which you cannot put down".

- P.Celsus

"The essential Saltes of Animals may be so prepared and preserved, that an ingenious Man may have the whole Ark of Noah in his own Studie, and raise the fine Shape of an Animal out of its Ashes at his Pleasure; and by the lyke Method from the essential Saltes of humane Dust, a Philosopher may, without any criminal Necromancy, call up the Shape of any dead Ancestour from the Dust whereinto his Bodie has been incinerated."

- Borellus

JUST ONE SOUL?! Is there anything on this puny earth as important? Isn't even one soul worth all this effort... and more?"

- the umpire The Real Ghostbusters; Night game

[Theroc]

Huh. Here I was messin' around with the Racial paragon levels (medium BAB, most level increase spellcasting) rather than additional wizard levels and a full BAB class.

Just out of curiousity, are the racial paragon classes not very good, that no one seemed to look at them, or is it just something no one really uses so you guys didn't think of it.

@frank:
Following P.Celsus advice would be a little restrictive, since at level 1 I think anything I could summon could kill me 1 v 1, lol

[Trouvere]

To enter at 8th level,
Ranger 1 / Conjurer 6, which with Track and perhaps favored enemy (magical beast) has a nice thematic fit with the Learner,
or Human or Elf Paragon 1 / Conjurer 1 / Paragon +2 / Conjurer +3, where the +2 ability boosts help to counteract the Learner's slight MAD and lack of focus. Human Paragon 2 lets you gain the weak Endurance feat for free.
Either route loses only 1 spellcasting level before Learner levels begin.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Huh. Here I was messin' around with the Racial paragon levels (medium BAB, most level increase spellcasting) rather than additional wizard levels and a full BAB class.

Just out of curiousity, are the racial paragon classes not very good, that no one seemed to look at them, or is it just something no one really uses so you guys didn't think of it.

@frank:
Following P.Celsus advice would be a little restrictive, since at level 1 I think anything I could summon could kill me 1 v 1, lol

Actually, I like the Racial Paragon classes, but I rarely see people use them. However, without any clue as to the PCs race, I didn't consider them.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

Actually, I like the Racial Paragon classes, but I rarely see people use them. However, without any clue as to the PCs race, I didn't consider them.

Doh! I coulda swore I mentioned it. I'm wavering between Human, Elf and Half-elf. Haven't settled on one yet.

[Dannyalcatraz]

With 3 levels of either the Elf Paragon or the Human Paragon, you'd get +2BAB and +2 caster levels, plus a stat boost. At 7th level, though, you'd still be one caster level shy of being able to cast 3rd level spells.

With the Half-Elf Paragon, one of the options is Divided ancestry. Here, it doesn't help you get to your goal any faster, since if you maxed out your Half-Elf and either Human or Elf paragon levels, you'd have the BAB no problem, but at 7th level, you'd still be casting 2nd level spells at best. You'd have at least one bonus feat and +4 in stat boosts (in addition to the ones gained every 4 PC levels). Again, you'd need at least one more caster level to cast 3rd level spells.

[Trouvere]

Hmmm. The need to take Spell Mastery and Arcane Spontaneity (LEW feat) after 3rd level spells are achieved makes it very difficult to use Conjurer to enter, or to combine anything with lots of Paragon levels.

Ranger 1 / Wizard 6 works, since you can spend the Wizard 5 bonus feat on Spell Mastery and the 6th level feat on Arcane Spontaneity. With the Endurance requirement, that's a lot of wasted feats.

You could possibly convince the LEW judges that you can qualify to take Arcane Spontaneity without having Spell Mastery using the specialist Illusionist class variant Illusion Mastery, but I doubt it.

Wouldn't it be easier just to use Bard or Sorcerer, removing the need for those feats entirely? If you use Sorcerer, an initial Ranger level is needed so that Knowledge (nature) is a class skill (cross class, you can't qualify for Learner until 10th level). Ranger 1 / Sorcerer 6 qualifies, with base saves of +4/+4/+5. So, while we're on the subject of Paragons, would Human Paragon 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Paragon +2 / Sorcerer +3, with saves +2/+2/+6, a bonus feat and +2 to an ability.

Considering that Learner needs Wis for talents/day, Int for skills and talents known, Cha for talent saves, Con like everyone else and Dex since it's built on an arcane base and can only use light armor without ASF for talents (everything except Str!), some ability increases would be nice.

You know, I just don't think the Learner PrC works. Things have been going well for you; you're a spellcasting level behind your single-classed Sorcerer friend (and your Wizard friend has 4th level spells), but now you finally have 3rd level spells, including Summon Monster III. You enter Learner. You can pick up 3+Int 1st level talents.

Using your Summon Monster spells, you can learn:
(1) the small air elemental's whirlwind, (2) the small water elemental's vortex (and how are they supposed to work?) and (3) the hell hound's fiery bite. At Learner 2, you can gain (4) the dretch's telepathy and (5) the hell hound's breath weapon.

For anything else, you're dependent on a DM throwing just the right sort of monster at you, which in LEW's living world is not quite as simple as it sounds. You're not ordinarily going to find every one of the weirder or more deadly monsters living a day outside Orussus.

You could also ask a full caster friend to help out with higher level Summon Monster spells. But from looking over the list, even without using these to examine a monster under controlled conditions, the Learner seems to gain abilities that are similar to spells several levels later than a normal caster would: charm person and entangle at 8th; blink, slow, tongues and magic circle against evil at 10th; enervation, detect thoughts and displacement at 11th; dimension door at 12th; true seeing at 13th; plane shift, teleport and ethereal jaunt at 14th. What's the point?

[Theroc]

Well, for one I did not realize Charisma was a prerequisite for saves. That basically makes an effective learner nearly impossible. If it was just Wis and Int, it may have been doable, or just wis and cha, or int and cha.

The reason I liked the PrC was for flavor reasons. I didn't mind possibly being a bit 'weaker'... but the more I'm hearing of the PrC it sounds like it's a really, really poor man's sorcerer.

So, as awesome as it is flavorwise, I may end up passing it up.

[Trouvere]

If you'll allow me a lengthy digression....
There are two types of 'optimization'. Let me give an example.
Innocent poster wanders along and says "Hey, can you help me with my mystic theurge?"
A 'good' optimizer takes a weak choice and makes it as strong as possible for that choice - start with Cloistered Cleric for maximum skill points, go specialist Wizard dropping Abjuration which the cleric side can cover, see if you can qualify for a prestige class at 6th level, if you can swing it take the Kobold and Travel domains for trapfinding and Survival (with Track) to supplement your weaker casting with some secondary roles, finish off with a decent PrC.
The other kind of optimizer, whom I see far too often, says "Yes, good, but drop the Cleric levels, and swap the Theurge levels for Incantatrix. Or go Druid/Planar Shepherd." He has a friend who parrots "Tome of Battle, Tome of Battle" whenever anyone mentions a melee class. Yeah, gee, thanks, Mr Optimizer. Real helpful.

So I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively "don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger."

But this Learner... well, I really don't get it. It forces you to spend around a third of your career (5 to 7 levels) as an arcane caster, and then stall and start a new progression all over again. I can understand why a PC might devote themselves to both arcane and divine magic and enter Mystic Theurge. I don't understand why a PC would turn their back on their arcane casting for, essentially, more lower level arcane casting... at least, not for 10 levels.

I could see it as a kind of Spellthief PrC for Rogues. But it really ought to have been a unique PrC for a Ranger focused on aberrations, magical beasts and outsiders, losing BAB and skill points and the very limited Ranger spellcasting for something a lot more interesting.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

If you'll allow me a lengthy digression....
There are two types of 'optimization'. Let me give an example.
Innocent poster wanders along and says "Hey, can you help me with my mystic theurge?"
A 'good' optimizer takes a weak choice and makes it as strong as possible for that choice - start with Cloistered Cleric for maximum skill points, go specialist Wizard dropping Abjuration which the cleric side can cover, see if you can qualify for a prestige class at 6th level, if you can swing it take the Kobold and Travel domains for trapfinding and Survival (with Track) to supplement your weaker casting with some secondary roles, finish off with a decent PrC.
The other kind of optimizer, whom I see far too often, says "Yes, good, but drop the Cleric levels, and swap the Theurge levels for Incantatrix. Or go Druid/Planar Shepherd." He has a friend who parrots "Tome of Battle, Tome of Battle" whenever anyone mentions a melee class. Yeah, gee, thanks, Mr Optimizer. Real helpful.

So I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively "don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger."

But this Learner... well, I really don't get it. It forces you to spend around a third of your career (5 to 7 levels) as an arcane caster, and then stall and start a new progression all over again. I can understand why a PC might devote themselves to both arcane and divine magic and enter Mystic Theurge. I don't understand why a PC would turn their back on their arcane casting for, essentially, more lower level arcane casting... at least, not for 10 levels.

I could see it as a kind of Spellthief PrC for Rogues. But it really ought to have been a unique PrC for a Ranger focused on aberrations, magical beasts and outsiders, losing BAB and skill points and the very limited Ranger spellcasting for something a lot more interesting.

I see what you're saying, and after realizing the MAD Learner incurs(worse than any other build I've heard of), and knowing I lose casting levels, it feels like I'm cutting off my right hand to attach a dead hand that has half the capability of the other.

The only advantage a Learner has is a larger repertoire of weaker abilities.

I love the concept, but the implementation does seem very, very wonky. Hm... perhaps I should attempt to rework the PrC as a proposal? I can still see it being an arcane approach, but perhaps a more ranger oriented approach might work.

Favored enemy bonus applying to the observation rolls, etc... a 'Know thy enemy' sort of deal.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Theroc

The concept of the character is a hands-on researcher of monsters, to an extent. Not quite totally the 'genius laboratory' type, but one who observes things and is fascinated with monsters, so a focus on summoning.

Originally Posted by Trouvere

I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively "don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger."

Originally Posted by Theroc

I see what you're saying, and after realizing the MAD Learner incurs...
I love the concept, but the implementation does seem very, very wonky...I can still see it being an arcane approach, but perhaps a more ranger oriented approach might work.

I love the concept, and agree that the PrCl is just a bit too wonky, even for me. I'm not usually MAD averse, but this one? WHEW!

So, at the risk of venturing into "bad optimizer" territory...

Were I designing a PC based on the concept, I'd probably concentrate on either Ranger or Druid as the "nature" class, and Specialist Conjuror (Focused Specialist?) for the arcane side of things, loading up on the conjuration Reserve Feats, maybe even some of the Conjuration alternative class features. (Obviously dependent upon what is available.) If you went with the Druid, you could even go with Geomancer...

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

I love the concept, and agree that the PrCl is just a bit too wonky, even for me. I'm not usually MAD averse, but this one? WHEW!

So, at the risk of venturing into "bad optimizer" territory...

Were I designing a PC based on the concept, I'd probably concentrate on either Ranger or Druid as the "nature" class, and Specialist Conjuror (Focused Specialist?) for the arcane side of things, loading up on the conjuration Reserve Feats, maybe even some of the Conjuration alternative class features. (Obviously dependent upon what is available.) If you went with the Druid, you could even go with Geomancer...

I'd totally go for a Geomancer, except Complete Divine is not allowed. And Reserve Feats are out, because Complete Mage is not allowed.

The allowed sources on LEW are only the things that are currently in the thread I linked.

Thanks for the advice though, I appreciate the responses, and Danny, seeing you agree that it's too MAD and Wonky makes me feel less like a "Dirty munchkin" when changing gears, since you definitely seem to play a lot of 'out there' concepts.

I think I will attempt to propose a streamlining/update to the Learner PrC(particularly if no one there has one) to try and make the PrC less crazy.

Failing that, I'll likely just try out a straight wizard who is fascinated by monsters(and therefore summons them for additional study)

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Theroc

I'd totally go for a Geomancer, except Complete Divine is not allowed. And Reserve Feats are out, because Complete Mage is not allowed.

Yeah, yeah, I know...I was just thinking of it as a concept in general. (Sorry I wasn't clear on that.)

Thanks for the advice though, I appreciate the responses, and Danny, seeing you agree that it's too MAD and Wonky makes me feel less like a "Dirty munchkin" when changing gears, since you definitely seem to play a lot of 'out there' concepts.

I don't know how to take that!

Failing that, I'll likely just try out a straight wizard who is fascinated by monsters(and therefore summons them for additional study)

I'd still go for the Conjurer at the very least, possibly multiclassing as Conj/Druid/MT, Conj/Rgr/Paragon, Conj/Rgr/EK, Conj/Paragon/Loremaster or Conj/Paragon/Horizon Walker. There are several statistical analyses out there- like the Powergamer's guide- that say that the Specialist really does have an advantage in a restricted environment such as the one you're describing. And the multiclass options either emphasize the rugged, outdoorsy nature of the PC concept or the strength of the PC's thirst for knowledge.

While a lot of people would play a Human for the extra feat, I'd strongly consider playing another race.

Play an Elf and you'll have the benefit of slightly better weaponry to defend yourself if your critters aren't getting the job done. Dex should be your next highest stat so that you get the AC bonus, the initiative bonus and you can use your bow to defend yourself at range.

One thing I was unclear on- your link lets us know about the Necromancer Variant that appears in the SRD...but its an altered version of it. What about the other variants? Are they open? If so, you might want to take a look at the SRD Conjurer variants.

[Theroc]

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

One thing I was unclear on- your link lets us know about the Necromancer Variant that appears in the SRD...but its an altered version of it. What about the other variants? Are they open? If so, you might want to take a look at the SRD Conjurer variants.

None of the other variants are as of yet approved, I did propose the Rapid Summoning variant of the Conjuror which replaces a familiar. The idea of losing experience if it gets hit(and it strikes me as fragile) makes me paranoid about even having one, so I figured I'd replace it with quicker summoning.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Having been through exactly that, I was thinking the same substitution would be a good idea.