Last night, the PCs were underground and faced with a dragon that was hitting and running against them - it would attack one end of the party and then retreat with its move action a full 180 feet. (inspired a bit by that thread from a few weeks back about the dragon that kept doing that to the PCs)
The party cleric was considering casting "Miracle" to do something to slow the dragon down/inhibit its flight. However, the one guy that knows the rules the best had to cancel at the last minute, and the 2nd guy that knows the rules well had to leave a bit early last night.
I couldn't really think of a spell that was arcane/psionic of level 7 or below or divine level 8 & below that would do that to the dragon? Dragons generally have pretty good saves, so anything that required a save would likely not have worked. I had thought Otto's Irresistible Dance, but that is level 8. Something that stuns/slows without a save?
Anything in the Spell Compendium?
Thanks
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Dragon Magic has some invocations specifically for that purpose, but oddly, no equivalent spells that I can see. I don't know of any spells that specifically counteract flight.
Stunning is hard to do, but dazing (Radiant Burst is in SC, for example) is possible. As far as straight combat tactics, readied actions and cover can be halpful, but obviously the situation may or may not allow this sort of thing. You could also wish yourselves fly speeds and follow the dragon.
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It is worth noting that irresistable dance is also a 6th lv bard spell, and so can be replicated using miracle (yes, another "quirk" of 3e spellcasting).
Draconomicon has wingbind, though it allows a reflex save.
Another possibility is to block its escape route. Summon monster 7 lets you bring in bone devils, which can use wall of ice at-will.
Any wall spell might have done the trick as well. Perhaps use miracle to simulate wall of force?
It is worth noting that irresistable dance is also a 6th lv bard spell, and so can be replicated using miracle (yes, another "quirk" of 3e spellcasting).
Draconomicon has wingbind, though it allows a reflex save.
Another possibility is to block its escape route. Summon monster 7 lets you bring in bone devils, which can use wall of ice at-will.
Any wall spell might have done the trick as well. Perhaps use miracle to simulate wall of force?
True - they had thought Wall of Force, but then the dragon could have just flown in the other direction above the PCs. They'd have to do something to block its movement in another direction.
__________________ "Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
Draconomicon has wingbind, though it allows a reflex save.
The lower-level (2nd? I don't have my books handy) earthbind is also in the Spell Compendium - IIRC, it's a Fort save instead of matching wingbind's Reflex.
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It is worth noting that irresistable dance is also a 6th lv bard spell, and so can be replicated using miracle (yes, another "quirk" of 3e spellcasting).
Draconomicon has wingbind, though it allows a reflex save.
Another possibility is to block its escape route. Summon monster 7 lets you bring in bone devils, which can use wall of ice at-will.
Any wall spell might have done the trick as well. Perhaps use miracle to simulate wall of force?
great point as well on Otto's - it also allows no save. The thing with the bone devils or wall spells is that the dragon can just then escape on its turn with Dimension Door or Shadow Walk (it was a shadow dragon...). The party psion ended up using Entangling Ectoplasm augmented enough to get a size Huge monster to entangle the dragon to slow it down briefly. However, not liking the looming melee with a raging goliath barbarian and a Righteous Mighted/Divine Powered cleric/paladin, it then Dimension Doored away and got the heck out of Dodge.
__________________ "Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
As already mentioned, Wingbind is a kind of tailored "anti flying dragons" spell. Combining it with Dimensional Anchor may lock even that shadow dragon.
Depend on the dragon's size, Bigby's Grasping/Crushing Hand may work, too.
Making it blind maybe useful, too. Even with Blindsense, it's movement is halved if being blinded. So, heightend Glitterdust may still work. This spell is also good to counter shadow dragon's shadow blend ability.
Also, at that level, the party cleric can just mimic Mass Fly via Miracle. Then, all the party members (or at least all the melee combatants) can ready charge against the dragon. Once threatened by multiple melee combatants of appropriate level, hit and run tactics is not that easy even for a dragon.
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Yeah, by quirkiness Otto's is on the table. I find that amusing.
I'll try a different route... Stun Ray is a level 7 ranged touch attack ray. It allows a fort save, but that only reduces the stun length from 1d4 +1 rounds to 1 round (unless the dragon has electricity immunity, then the spell just fails). Dragon touch AC is "don't roll a 1," and assuming typically crappy elder dragon flight maneuverability, even just 1 round stunned should be enough for a mid-air stall.
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Generally speaking, I wouldn't try to stop the dragon's flight, I'd do things to make its hit & run tactics less effective.
1) Do lots of damage to it. Disintigrate is a fave.
2) Nullify its attacks. If its doing strafing runs, erect walls to give you cover. Or make it change its flight path with an Acid Fog in its way at the last minute.
3) Alter its mobility by taking away its ability to fly properly- Baleful Polymorph, Reverse Gravity. Flesh to Stone could be fun if it fails its save...but not if its right over the party when it does so or momentum turns it into a dragon-shaped bowling ball...
4) Give it something else to deal with by summoning an ally of some kind. A Djinn or Elemental may just give it pause enough to make the encounter survivable.
5) Judo the situation: Magnificent Mansion out of the combat for a while...or even use it like a fortress from which you can launch sorties against the drake. Coupled with Control Weather, you might make the environs too harsh for the dragon's tactics to be effective.
6) Its possible- remotely- that flying at the wrong elevation + a failed save could make Evard's Black Tentacles effective against the dragon. It is a long shot, though.
In the non-spell tactical choices is the Combat Reflexes feat chain, including Stand Still.
I played a Dex-based Monk/Kensai at a Dallas ENWorld Gameday who had the Combat Reflexes feat chain, used a Greatspear with Pole Master (which lets a monk use a specific polearm as a Monk weapon) and potions of Enlarge. Her melee attacks were one of the main factors the party fended off a pair of dragons (at least in part due to the fact that the Knight couldn't reach them). Her nasty base damage, AoOs, FoB extended reach, and the CR/Hold the Line/Stand Still/Deft Opportunist feats, she helped pin them down every once in a while, until they were forced to retreat from the battlefield.
On another note, if the dragon is making only a single attack while moving, this does not seem all that threatening to a higher lv party (unless it is combining flyby attack with breath weapon, quick recovery and quickened attack spells?), though I suppose it can be very frustrating.
Or it is somehow able to full-attack and still move?
Last night, the PCs were underground and faced with a dragon that was hitting and running against them - it would attack one end of the party and then retreat with its move action a full 180 feet. (inspired a bit by that thread from a few weeks back about the dragon that kept doing that to the PCs)
The party cleric was considering casting "Miracle" to do something to slow the dragon down/inhibit its flight. However, the one guy that knows the rules the best had to cancel at the last minute, and the 2nd guy that knows the rules well had to leave a bit early last night.
I couldn't really think of a spell that was arcane/psionic of level 7 or below or divine level 8 & below that would do that to the dragon? Dragons generally have pretty good saves, so anything that required a save would likely not have worked. I had thought Otto's Irresistible Dance, but that is level 8. Something that stuns/slows without a save?
Anything in the Spell Compendium?
Thanks
Slow fog: as soon as the dragon reaches the fog it is slowed to 5 feet.
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1) Do lots of damage to it. Disintigrate is a fave.
...
3) Alter its mobility by taking away its ability to fly properly- Baleful Polymorph, Reverse Gravity. Flesh to Stone could be fun if it fails its save...but not if its right over the party when it does so or momentum turns it into a dragon-shaped bowling ball...
Don't dragons typically have good fort saves?
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My point was more along the lines of..."since dragons have pretty good odds of saving against any spell, you need to expand your mental arsenal."
There are only going to be a few spells that actually have a chance to slow a dragon's flight. If you just think in terms of slowing down its flight, you're going to run out of options very quickly, especially if the players don't have a taste for exotic spells.
However, there are LOTS of damage spells- most of which do damage even when the target saves- and a spell like Baleful Polymorph doesn't just slow the dragon, it entirely neutralizes the threat.
A spell like the Mansion buys you time, as does a high-level summoning spell.
IOW, I want to think in terms of what spells will be effective vs a dragon...and simply slowing it down would be a low priority option.
On another note, if the dragon is making only a single attack while moving, this does not seem all that threatening to a higher lv party (unless it is combining flyby attack with breath weapon, quick recovery and quickened attack spells?), though I suppose it can be very frustrating.
Or it is somehow able to full-attack and still move?
No, the dragon was not able to full-attack & move. However, being a shadow dragon, it did have a breath weapon that drains 6 levels - and, I gave it the feat that allows it to use its breath weapon as a spread effect, and then the Extend Spreading Breath feat that allowed it do that do that spread effect at 120 feet away... so, it opened combat with its breath weapon that hit 7 of the 9 party members from beyond their sight range, most of whom failed their Reflex save. They promptly teleported out and used some Greater Restorations to get their lost levels back - and then had the cleric cast Death Ward, Mass to protect them from its breath weapon next time. After the dragon saw its breath weapon was ineffective the next time, it spent a couple of rounds hopping around the battlemat in an attempt to dispel to Mass Death Ward. After it took some damage via spells and flying PCs, it then got entangled, so it Dimension Door'd out of range and then Shadow Walked to close to its lair while the PCs rested and recovered spells, etc.
__________________ "Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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