Rapid Shot feat for warlock?

[drvavylis]

Hello guys.
I recently started playing a warlock. In complete arcane writes that Point Blank Shot is obtainable for spell-like abilities. Is it possible for the feat Rapid Shot to be applied at Eldritch Blast as well? It coud be realy awesome!
Thanks

[CAFargo]

I would say that anything that can be applied to spell-like abilities could be applied to a warlock's invocations, but I don't even think that I would allow this feat to be applied to a spell-like ability (maybe a different feat, with the same affect but for spells and invocations...).

Well, really you should check with your DM before you do anything, and don't act like your trying to get 1-up on him AT ALL! I dm, and I've shot down a few ideas just because the player seems to be trying to pull a wool over my eyes. I tend to "reconsider" later, after the players have thought about it for a while (try again if your dm says no, but don't badger him).

[GreyVulpine]

Eldritch Blasts are a spell-like ability that require a ranged touch attack. Therefore, it's a standard action to use, and you don't get iterative attacks with it. So, Rapid shot is useless for the Warlock

[CAFargo]

Originally Posted by GreyVulpine

Eldritch Blasts are a spell-like ability that require a ranged touch attack. Therefore, it's a standard action to use, and you don't get iterative attacks with it. So, Rapid shot is useless for the Warlock

That's too bad...still, I might talk to your DM about a feat that gives you an extra use of an invocation, as if it were the rapid-shot feat, but with tougher prerequisites. Try this below:

Rapid Shot Invoker [General]
You are trained to be able to fire off more invocations in combat.
Prerequisites: Dex 18, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid-Shot, Cleave, Greatcleave
Effect: Whenever you hit an opponent with a warlock's invocation that does not duplicate the effect of a spell, you can fire an eldritch blast (the generic attack) at them as well, but at a -4 penalty to your attack.

This should be powerful enough to shoot for, but weak enough to not unbalance the game.

[drvavylis]

@ Greyvulpin
W8 a sec. range touch attack is still a range attack? otherwise why does the starting package of warlock propose this feat to obtain? Lets pretend that the Rapid Shot is obtainable by the warlock. To use it i have to do full attack. So even if eldritch blast is a standard action it doesnt matter. Where am i wrong?
Thanx

[aboyd]

Originally Posted by drvavylis

W8 a sec. range touch attack is still a range attack? otherwise why does the starting package of warlock propose this feat to obtain?

drvavylis, my book has "Point Blank Shot" for the starting package feat. Where do you see "Rapid Shot" as part of a starting package? Can you give me a page number (and book name, in case you're looking at something other than Complete Arcane)?

Originally Posted by drvavylis

Lets pretend that the Rapid Shot is obtainable by the warlock. To use it i have to do full attack. So even if eldritch blast is a standard action it doesnt matter. Where am i wrong?

You can't do two standard actions in a round.

Spells and spell-like abilities are not powered by your BAB's full attack feature, and thus cannot be compressed into a full attack (the full attack relies on what a BAB allows, and the BAB only works for weapons). Page 139 of the PHB says that full attacks allow you to make "multiple melee or ranged attacks." It then goes on to define melee attacks as using "a normal melee weapon" and ranged attacks as using "a ranged weapon." No mention of spells or spell-like abilities, nor supernatural abilities either.

[GreyVulpine]

Originally Posted by drvavylis

@ Greyvulpin
W8 a sec. range touch attack is still a range attack? otherwise why does the starting package of warlock propose this feat to obtain? Lets pretend that the Rapid Shot is obtainable by the warlock. To use it i have to do full attack. So even if eldritch blast is a standard action it doesnt matter. Where am i wrong?
Thanx

Yes, the Eldritch Blast is treated in all respects as a ranged attack, uses a ranged touch attack to target enemies, but is a spell-like ability which uses a standard action to 'cast'. The Complete Arcane's human starting package recommends Toughness and Point Blank Shot for feats, I don't see Rapid Shot in there.

An Archer (bow) has basically two methods of attack. He can use a standard action to shoot one arrow at his highest Base Attack Bonus, or if he has multiple attacks due to his BAB, he can use a Full Round Action to loose multiple arrows at target(s). The Warlock's Eldritch Blast doesn't have that ability, he can only use a Standard Action to 'cast' the Blast. You don't get multiple standard actions in a single round.

Edit: Ninja'd :P

[StreamOfTheSky]

Later on, there is Quicken Spell-like ability, to get 2 per round a few times per day.

[drvavylis]

The starting package of warlock propose Point Blank Shot for warlock. Complete Arcane states tha Points Blank Shot works with range spells who do hit point damage. I assume that includes warlock's Eldritch Blast. Am i wrong?
Rapid Shot grants an additional range attack. So, if i used a bow for example, i do a full attack and with the above feats i do 2 attacks with my bow. Correct? the first attack with the bow is a standard action. The second attack makes the full attack action. If i am at this far correct, why cant i use Rapid Shot with Eldritch Blast? What do i miss?

[Runestar]

Let's put it this way.

A warlock using his eldritch blast is a standard action, much like a wizard casting a spell.

A wizard with bab16+ would not be able to cast 4 spells each round as a full-round action.

In the same vein, a warlock would not be able to fire off multiple blasts from a high bab (ie: he would not get 3 EBs with a bab of 11).

Therefore, rapid shot would have no benefit either.

[GreyVulpine]

Originally Posted by drvavylis

The starting package of warlock propose Point Blank Shot for warlock. Complete Arcane states tha Points Blank Shot works with range spells who do hit point damage. I assume that includes warlock's Eldritch Blast. Am i wrong?
Rapid Shot grants an additional range attack. So, if i used a bow for example, i do a full attack and with the above feats i do 2 attacks with my bow. Correct? the first attack with the bow is a standard action. The second attack makes the full attack action. If i am at this far correct, why cant i use Rapid Shot with Eldritch Blast? What do i miss?

Point Blank Shot works for Eldritch Blast. Yes.

Rapid Shot is a Full-Round Action. You gain one additional attack with it. Deciding to use Rapid Shot means you're devoting a full round to attack. It no longer counts as a Standard action any time during that action.

Your Eldritch Blast is ONLY a Standard Action to cast, you don't have the option to devote a full round to it, thus Rapid Shot does not apply.

[Nebten]

From D&D 3.5 FAQ


Can a warlock use Rapid Shot to fire two eldritch blasts simultaneously?

No. Using eldritch blast requires a standard action, not an attack action (unlike using a weapon). If something requires a standard action (as opposed to an attack action) to use, you can’t use the full attack action to gain extra uses of that ability, even with the Rapid Shot feat.

[drvavylis]

Aha. I see. Thanks for all your answers. I have to say that phb's faq was the most convincing one. Sorry for the inconvinience guys Damn rules...

[aboyd]

You can still do something close to what you want, although it relies on invocations instead of the eldritch blast. It's just a different feat. The description of the warlock states that his invocations can benefit "from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability (see pages 303 and 304 of the Monster Manual)."

So when you hit 10th level, you'll have the ability to quicken any invocation which is equivalent to a level 1 spell (this is listed with each invocation). So start of round, you cast an eldritch blast on an enemy 15' in front of you. Standard action. Then you run up to the enemy. Move action. Then you cast a quickened Hideous Blow invocation, which channels your eldritch blast into a melee attack. Free action.

Or perhaps you cast eldritch blast as a standard, then cast a quickened Breath of the Night invocation to obscure yourself as a free action, and then use a move action to escape.

[Balnagown]

I think the difference here can be found in the mechanics of the two feats:

Point Blank Shot gives a +1 bonus to ranged attacks and damage within 30 ft. An extra 5% to hit is always useful.

Rapid Shot allows you to convert a single Standard Action attack with a ranged weapon into a Full Round double shot. Great for characters which do not have a high enough BAB to have iterative attacks.

The bow is a weapon for which iterative attacks are allowed. The warlock's spell-like abilities are Standard Actions and not subject to iterative attacks. So, IMO, no Rapid Shot goodness.

As suggested earlier a Rapid Invocation feat, based on Rapid Shot with suitable prerequisites, could be house-ruled. The OP could approach his DM and negotiate such a feat. But any feat or action a player can use is also available for their opponents.

Regards,
Martin

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, there's also the Eldritch Glaive invocation in a splat book, which lets you shape your EB as a spear and perform full melee attacks with it (against full AC instead of touch, iirc, with the EB damage as the weapon's base damage). I wonder if it'd be that overpowered to create an "Eldritch Bow" invocation on grade higher than glaive. Which would make Eldritch Bow a lesser invocation. It would either give you a bow formed of energy or you'd use a mundane bow, whatever. Either way, you would shape your EB into arrows to be fired from the bow as attack actions, using EB as the base damage.

I don't think it'd be too strong -- not like Warlocks have great BAB anyway. So that's aother way to houserule, rather than a new feat.

[Shin Okada]

Just to clarify why Rapid Shot cannot be used with Eldritch Blast.

From SRD,

RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special: A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

Emphasis added.

When using Eldritch Blast (a spell-like ability), you dont use the full attack action. So you cannot use Rapid Shot. This is the most obvious reason.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by Balnagown

Rapid Shot allows you to convert a single Standard Action attack with a ranged weapon into a Full Round double shot. Great for characters which do not have a high enough BAB to have iterative attacks.

This is incorrect - see Shin's post.

Rapid Shot allows you an extra attack when using a full attack action (i.e., a full round action) it does not convert a standard attack into a full round double shot, ever. And it is not an iterative attack either since the extra attack is made at your highest BAB and then inserts a -2 penalty to "all attacks". Iterative attacks are based on your BAB and each "extra" attack is made with a -5 on your attack roll, but the first attack is unmodified.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Originally Posted by aboyd

So when you hit 10th level, you'll have the ability to quicken any invocation which is equivalent to a level 1 spell (this is listed with each invocation). So start of round, you cast an eldritch blast on an enemy 15' in front of you. Standard action. Then you run up to the enemy. Move action. Then you cast a quickened Hideous Blow invocation, which channels your eldritch blast into a melee attack. Free action.

As a dude that's gearing up to run a Warlock, this sounds nifty except...

Page 7 Complete Arcane says

An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a spell whose level is equal to one-half the warlock’s class level (round down), with a minimum spell level of 1st and a maximum of 9th when a warlock reaches 18th level or higher.

And then Page 8 says

When a warlock applies an eldritch essence invocation to his eldritch blast, the spell level equivalent of the modified blast is equal to the spell level of the eldritch blast or of the eldritch essence invocation, whichever is higher.

So unless, I'm missing my guess, you're not actually going to be Quickening Eldritch Blast ever, nor will you be empowering it. Because it's always going to be counting as half your caster level.

So for example, according to the SRD, the best you're going to be able to Quicken at 20th level is a 6th level spell. Not a 9th level.
Monster Feats :: d20srd.org

Anyone able to clear up what I'm missing? Because right now it looks like Complete Arcane is offering bogus advice to take Quicken/Empower.

[irdeggman]

Originally Posted by Scurvy_Platypus

As a dude that's gearing up to run a Warlock, this sounds nifty except...

Check the complete arcane errata on spell level and EB

Page 7: Eldritch Blast
Second paragraph of the Eldritch Blast ability
description:

Change “An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a spell
whose level is equal to one-half the warlock’s class
level (round down), with a minimum spell level of 1st
and a maximum of 9th when the warlock reaches 18th
level or higher” to “An eldritch blast is the equivalent
of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch
essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130),
your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape
or essence.”

Any other references to eldritch blast being something
other than the equivalent of a 1st-level spell should be
disregarded.

Any other references claiming that eldritch blast is not
an invocation should be disregarded.
A warlock can use eldritch blast at will.

Page 8: Invocations and Eldritch Blast
Change this section as follows:

Invocations and Eldritch Blast: Eldritch blast is an
invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with
the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new
eldritch attacks.